The Official Cersei Lannister Appreciation thread

[Alexia]

Robert = Cersei had no choice but to sleep with him

Jaime = Cersei was in love with him and they had a longstanding relationship

Lancel = Cersei was lonely and missed both her lover and having sex

Osney = Cersei tried to manipulate him sexually and it backfired

But naturally, since Cersei is a woman the easiest way to attack her is to lob misogynistic slurs at her sexuality, regardless of whether or not they fit. Her sexuality is exceedingly unhealthy because of her incestuous relationship, but she is no whore. However, I am entirely unsurprised by the attacks on her sexuality. It isn't like Cersei has had people tortured and murdered, enabled her elder son's sadism, emotionally abused her younger son, and is a disaster of a ruler. No... she's a WHORE AND THAT MAKES HER EVIIILL!

:rolleyes:

[brashcandy]

I'm always wary of calling any woman a whore, unless she's an actual prostitute, and even then, the word whore itself is such a demeaning, derogatory term. I don't understand the idea that Cersei is a whore either because she uses sex to manipulate men. We see plenty of women in the series using either outright sex or the promise of sex through flirtatious behaviour or other means to get what they want.

Off the top of my head:

Arianne

Asha

Dany

Jeyne Westerling

and they are probably others that I've missed. There are many problems with Cersei, but her sexual activity isn't one of them. I wish for her sake she didn't have to resort to such means, but she's not to be singled out as some Jezebel because of them.

[LordBloodraven]

Come on, don't you see the difference between Cersei and Dany/Jeyne Westerling/Asha? Considering the fact that Cersei was cheating with Jaime (no need to say it again they are in love, formed one entity and when they came to the world Jaime was holding Cersei's feet) and that it ended up causing (it's not the sole cause, even if it's the catalyst) a major civil war in Westeros, does it surprise you that people call Cersei a whore?

The fact is that Cersei is a queen and the fundamental function of a queen is to whelp children, so that the bloodline will be continued and stability will prevail; Cersei could have done that (I'm not defending Robert there) but she decided not to do it and preferred to birth bastards born from incest. From 264 AG to 302 AG, this has been the essential achievement of Cersei and now she's imprisoned for that. Even though she had 5 sexual partners, and that it produced tremendous consequences, Cersei will inevitably called a whore. She uses her beauty and her sex to manipulate Lancel (who's 16 and her cousin) into causing Robert's death. She doesn't even care about Lancel. She uses her sex to induce Osney Kettleblack into seducing Margaery Tyrell, so that she can be accused of treason. Not only is she a whore, she's an evil hypocrite because she would like to accuse Margaery of the thing she has been doing all along. When Ned confronts her, the first thing she does is groping him. Cersei has been used her sex, so as to have favors from men. At AFFC, when she no longer can manipulate Jaime, she just sends on the Riverlands. Look how Littlefinger briefed Sansa in ASOS: Cersei has been using sex and beauty as a tool, and now her beauty is leaving her.

Arianne tried at first to use Arys Oakheart, but genuinely fell in love with him. Dany, as surprising as it might be, was enamored with Daario Naharis. Asha with Qarl the Maid? or when she groped Theon? Jeyne Westerling?

Cersei is presented as such in the books, and it's very hard not to call her a whore. But she's a good character, and I'd like her to kick some Tyrell (mostly Mace the ass).

[Stannis the Great]

Lancel = Cersei was lonely and missed both her lover and having sex

Wait what? That's not exactly an excuse for cheating on Jaime. I'm pretty sure that if a guy catches the love of his life cheating on him there's a pretty good chance of him calling her a whore. The word whore has multiple meanings and the one in this context doesn't mean selling sex for money or sleeping around with lots of people but rather betrayal and infidelity.

[brashcandy]

@ Lordbloodraven,

Yes, I'm speaking about Asha's groping of Theon - she was not above using her own brother in such an inappropriate way to find out his business and make him feel like a fool. As for Arianne, did I miss the part where she fell in love with Arys? And her efforts caused great suffering on an innocent victim. Cersei may indeed have been paranoid about Margaery, but from what we've seen, Marg and the Tyrells are not innocent victims. Jeyne Westerling worked to seduce Robb and succeeded quite admirably. If you buy her whole "night nurse" act, then you were played just like Robb. She may have indeed come to love him, but don't think she wasn't aware of whom she was making love to and knew it would mean social advancement if he married her. As for causing major civil wars, I'd say that many people see Robb's marriage to Jeyne as causing the Red Wedding, but that is neither here nor there: Cersei did not cause a civil war to break out. If you want to blame her sleeping with Jaime as the catalyst for that war, you'll have to blame Jaime's act of pushing Bran.

Now the idea that Cersei somehow corrupted Lancel is absurd. Don't you think he wanted to sleep with his beautiful and powerful cousin just as much? She wasn't responsible for his later breakdown in any way, shape or form, but of course it's convenient to overlook this and blame Cersei. Men always get a free pass, whilst women are villified.

[brashcandy]

Wait what? That's not exactly an excuse for cheating on Jaime. I'm pretty sure that if a guy catches the love of his life cheating on him there's a pretty good chance of him calling her a whore. The word whore has multiple meanings and the one in this context doesn't mean selling sex for money or sleeping around with lots of people but rather betrayal and infidelity.

So a woman is a whore for being unfaithful? Are you kidding me??

[ZacharyB]

Meh... I understand why people would object to getting into debates about Cersei. However, frankly i have no problem with that. Such thoughts liven things up and create new layers for the discussion. IMO, saying "no debating about Cersei in the Cersei appreciation thread," would be equivalent to saying, "no debate in the "unpopular opinions" thread." The debate is natural, and it enlivens the discussion.

There's nothing wrong with debating about Cersei Lannister in the Cersei Lannister thread.

But debating about Jamie Lannister in the Cersei Lannister thread is what irked me last night. If you're going to debate, at least keep it about the topic at hand.

[brashcandy]

There's nothing wrong with debating about Cersei Lannister in the Cersei Lannister thread.

But debating about Jamie Lannister in the Cersei Lannister thread is what irked me last night. If you're going to debate, at least keep it about the topic at hand.

Whenever you're debating Cersei it's kinda hard not to get into arguments about Jaime too. Believe me, on Jaime Lannister threads lots of arguments develop over Cersei too. It's to be expected really.

[Ser-Arthur-Dayne]

Zach - Agreed. Debating about the RELATIONSHIP in RELATION to Cersei is fine, but I think it got pretty hectic about Jamie.

[Stannis the Great]

So a woman is a whore for being unfaithful? Are you kidding me??

No but many have been called a whore for being unfaithful. And as I stated there are various definitions of the word whore and the one in this context is the broadest definition and nowadays is thrown around as much as bastard, bitch, prick, dick, etc and is thus devalued.

Now please stop trying to twist my words to fit your agenda. A man cheating on his girlfriend is just as bad and there are words that are used to describe him for example, bastard, twat, etc. that are used out of context of their original meaning. So yes Cersei is a whore in the sense that she is cheating on the supposed love of her life but you can replace whore with bitch. The same can be said that Robert is a bastard for cheating on Cersei.

The point of my post was that Cersei plainly betrayed Jaime.

[Ser-Arthur-Dayne]

Robert = Cersei had no choice but to sleep with him

Jaime = Cersei was in love with him and they had a longstanding relationship

Lancel = Cersei was lonely and missed both her lover and having sex

Osney = Cersei tried to manipulate him sexually and it backfired

But naturally, since Cersei is a woman the easiest way to attack her is to lob misogynistic slurs at her sexuality, regardless of whether or not they fit. Her sexuality is exceedingly unhealthy because of her incestuous relationship, but she is no whore. However, I am entirely unsurprised by the attacks on her sexuality. It isn't like Cersei has had people tortured and murdered, enabled her elder son's sadism, emotionally abused her younger son, and is a disaster of a ruler. No... she's a WHORE AND THAT MAKES HER EVIIILL!

:rolleyes:

Was she not eh one who said “Tears are not a woman's only weapon.”?

[LadyoftheNorth72]

Robert = Cersei had no choice but to sleep with him

Jaime = Cersei was in love with him and they had a longstanding relationship

Lancel = Cersei was lonely and missed both her lover and having sex

Osney = Cersei tried to manipulate him sexually and it backfired

But naturally, since Cersei is a woman the easiest way to attack her is to lob misogynistic slurs at her sexuality, regardless of whether or not they fit. Her sexuality is exceedingly unhealthy because of her incestuous relationship, but she is no whore. However, I am entirely unsurprised by the attacks on her sexuality. It isn't like Cersei has had people tortured and murdered, enabled her elder son's sadism, emotionally abused her younger son, and is a disaster of a ruler. No... she's a WHORE AND THAT MAKES HER EVIIILL!

:rolleyes:

Not sure if this was primarily directed at me, but if so, I would certainly not say that her sexual actions were her only (or even her worst) offenses. It just kind of ended up being what I started with based on some of the posts immediately preceding mine.

In any case, this is an example of how two readers can read the same books and draw totally different conclusions. IMO Cersei did not ever love Jaime. I believe she seduced and used Lancel to help her eliminate Robert, not out of loneliness or need for sex. As far as Robert and Osney, agreed. Taena seems to have been just sort of a wine-induced experiment.

I think the reason her flings get focused on is both because they tended to seriously, massively exceed the bounds of most women's behavior (incest, infidelity from start to finish of her marriage, having another man's children, trying/succeeding to use men to help her commit murder). We are not just talking about a random affair or momentary lapses of judgment. It is a pattern of behavior that is inexorably tied to the rest of her offenses; you can't separate Cersei's sexual predilections from her other crimes because SHE didn't. They were often how she planned and helped her to carry them out.

[brashcandy]

No but many have been called a whore for being unfaithful. And as I stated there are various definitions of the word whore and the one in this context is the broadest definition and nowadays is thrown around as much as bastard, bitch, prick, dick, etc and is thus devalued.

Now please stop trying to twist my words to fit your agenda. A man cheating on his girlfriend is just as bad and there are words that are used to describe him for example, bastard, twat, etc. that are used out of context of their original meaning. So yes Cersei is a whore in the sense that she is cheating on the supposed love of her life but you can replace whore with bitch. The same can be said that Robert is a bastard for cheating on Cersei.

The point of my post was that Cersei plainly betrayed Jaime.

I would love to know what agenda this is that I have, and for the record "whore" and "bitch" are not interchangeable terms. The word whore has very specific gendered negative sexual connotations. We may have become desensitized to using it, but the original meaning of the word is very clear.

[Queen Cersei I]


There's nothing wrong with debating about Cersei Lannister in the Cersei Lannister thread.

But debating about Jamie Lannister in the Cersei Lannister thread is what irked me last night. If you're going to debate, at least keep it about the topic at hand.


That's perfectly fair and understandable, and I wasn't trying to dismiss your concerns. I’d be happy to capitulate to your desires if you feel really strongly about the issue, or if most other posters here agree with you.

And as I noted before, I see where you’re coming from, and it makes sense. However, declaring that discussions of Cersei be separated from mentioning Jaime strikes me a lot like declaring that a discussion of Rhaegar must not include arguments/ discussion of Lyanna Stark. On the surface it makes sense, but it’s really fairly limiting; not to mention that by neglecting to discuss the characters actions in regard to this person, we miss a fairly huge (even crucial) part of that characters psychological makeup.

Furthermore, I think that arguments focusing on Jaime and his actions were about Cersei very much—those who argue that Jaime was unfair in what he did are also making a point about the role that Cersei played in this fairly complex relationship. By bringing up Jaime’s attitude towards Cersei, and how it effected Cersei’s choice to kick him out of kings Landing, posters are arguing as much about Cersei as about Jaime.


There was nothing petty about it. 


Oh yes there was.


 Her infidelity was obviously a big deal to him. 


Obviously. What's your point?

Jaime (suddenly) claims to care about Tommen. How the is it going to help Tommen to have his mother executed? That would scar the kid for life.

The text encourages the reader to sympathize totally with Jaime and applaud his decision to leave his sister to die. But I can't bring myself to do so. If Jaime had done it on account of Cersei's truly evil deeds, that would be one thing. But he didn't. He did it because he was jealous that she'd slept with other guys, because the bitch had no right.

He fantasized about brutally attacking her himself, and constantly called her a whore in his mind. (Just like the "good" Tyrion.) In the end, though, he doesn't have to-- he just let's somebody else do it for him. At least Tyrion had the balls to commit his own act of vengeful domestic violence.


 And it wasn't just jealousy so much as he came to see Cersei for what she was, and renounced her.


Oh please. Give me a break. He knew that she wanted a little girl's hand cut off, but could live with it. It was only when he learned she'd been unfaithful that issues started to arise.

The whole "he had never seen her true face before now" spiel was a masterpiece of manipulation. Readers were supposed to see this as Jaime's moment of moral clarity. It takes him learning that Cersei used him just as she used other men to see what an evil, lying whore she really is! (Because, in these books, Cersei is always humiliated in a specifically sexual manner, and epithets hurled at her are frequently sexual in nature.) But honestly, it has nothing to do with morality. Jaime just got jealous; he could forgive Cersei wanting to needlessly maim little children, but dismissed her after learning she'd screwed other guys.


She cheated on him, lied to him, showed him what a horrible ruler and person she was


I find it funny that you mention these (relatively minor) issues in a post regarding why Jaime was right to abandon his sister to a (he believed) almost certain death. Because cheating on and mistreating a man is enough for a woman to deserve to die? Oh, I know, I know—Cersei was evil!

And yet, Jaime himself is not personally a victim of Cersei’s wickedness. He’s just some guy she cheated on. (Jaime is, in face, one of the 2 or 3 people in Westeros who is not entitled to kill Cersei in righteous vengeance.) Beyond sexual infidelity, she has committed no crime against him whatsoever. She has been sexually unfaithful to him, and rude on a few occasions. (And people see this as justification for Jaime abandoning Cersei to a near certain death, and actually root for him to strangle her? Yikes.)And she ultimately chose power over him (something Cersei is subtly demonized for). These would be great reasons for Jaime to break up with Cersei.

What he should not, from a moral perspective, do? Abandon her, his own sister whom he has claimed to love for 33 years, to an almost certain, humiliating, and horrible death. People have claimed that he did this to honor his mother, whom he dreamed about prior to receiving the letter. I say—B.S. First and foremost, if he wanted to honor his dead mother and remain loyal to his family, he would have tried to find a way to save his sister, her daughter. (And then proceed to lock Cersei up, where she’d have no power.)

Secondly, just glance at Jaime’s thoughts in AFFC after finding out about Cersei’s infidelity. It is a brilliant psychological portrait of a furious, insecure, hateful, angry, jealous man. Jaime expresses scorn, contempt for Cersei and expresses a clear if not fully conscious desire to harm or kill her in his “dream” about finding her with moonboy and bashing her face in. Cersei being punished is not something he’d wish to prevent, at this point.


 She all but treated him as if he was nothing to her anymore. 


Not really. Or, if she did, she was in good company. Throughout AFFC, and, to a lesser extent, the entire series, Jaime constantly denigrated her intelligence, and treated her in a condescending manner. From the beginning, he casts aspersions on her intelligence, all while going after her sexually. Consider the following:

“Do you think the king will require proof?” the woman said. “I tell you, he loves me not.”

“And whose fault is that, sweet sister?”

He then proceeds to note that he's sick of hearing her talk, she's boring him, and proceeds to sex her up.

This is their only interaction in AGOT. Cersei wants to discuss important issues with Jaime; but he condescendingly dismisses her worries, mocks her, inexplicably blames her for King Bob the rapist not loving her, and proceeds to sex her up rather than listen to her speak any longer.

And in ASOS, during their little reunion, after months spent apart, he isn’t too interested in hearing her talk either:

“Then he knocked the candles aside and lifted her up onto the mothers altar, pushing up her skirts and the silken shift beneath. She pounded on his chest with feeble fists, murmuring about the danger, about their father, about the septons, about the wrath of the gods. He never heard her. He undid his breeches and climbed up and pushed her bare white legs apart.” ASOS P. 701

In AFFC, he constantly (and condescendingly) insults her intelligence, all while clearly pining away for some action in the bedroom:

“Rule? I said naught of ruling. I shall rule until my son comes of age.”

“I don’t know who I pity more,” her brother said. “Tommen, or the seven kingdoms.”

-AFFC, P. 76

Then, later:

“Your supper guests, I know. What plot is this, now? There are so many I lose track.” His glance fell to the water beading in the golden hair between her legs.

He still wants me. “Pining for what you’ve lost, brother?”

Jaime raised his eyes. “I love you too, sweet sister. But you’re a fool. A beautiful golden fool.”

Jaime may (he thinks, and GRRM encourages the reader to believe) over and over again, that he truly loves Cersei, and yada, yada, yada However, when I look at the interactions between the two on the page (rather than Jaime’s silly, romanticized, idealistic thoughts) all I see is a guy refusing to listen to a woman, mocking her, viewing her with indulgent contempt (like one might view a naughty, stupid but amusing little child) and constantly using her for sex. Interestingly, the whole thing actually reminded me very much of the whole Shae/ Tyrion relationship. (“I don’t need for you to talk to or try to help me, sweeting,” says the admired and beloved imp. “The best way you can help me is by having sex with me.” What a guy. Honestly, what could Shae have been thinking when she decided to take an enormous amount of money, a castle, and extensive lands over this pint sized charmer?)

Jaime claims to love Cersei. The fact that we frequently get thoughts such as the following “For a moment he dared to hope that all she wanted was the comfort of his arms” is only one of the reasons that lead me to believe that the author wants us to take this view as well. Countless readers (yourself obviously amongst them) have unquestioningly taken the same view. But for me, it just doesn’t add up.

Sure, Cersei is rude to Jaime in AFFC. She is frustrated with him. He is constantly “affectionately” mocking her, insulting her intelligence, approaching her with condescension, and doing stupid things that might ignite the incest rumors. And yes, she is put off by his attitude towards her. Consider Cersei's comment about how“that’s not how you acted the night you got me pregnant with Joffrey.” Cersei may be rude and eventually dismissive towards Jaime in AFFC, but he’s mocking, contemptuous, and creepy towards her.


 I guess he should've been thankful for that.


I guess. But since he let her live, she is clearly going to rise again, in an obvious and not completely sensible character arc, regaining power (somehow.) She must do so to do more evil things, make the most idiotic blunders on a vast scale, get fat, ugly, and revolting, kick Jaime off the Kingsguard, continue to screw everything up, lead all her former allies (the Martells, the Tyrells, etc.) to ally in a heartbeat with Danerys and her dragons, and to murder her own son, Tommen, in a moment obviously designed to show that Cersei has no good qualities (not even her love for her children is real); that women who lust after power and put it before men are hopeless evil narcissists; and that Cersei has never loved her kids or anything else, only power.

So, yeah, in the end, it was just great that Jaime allowed Cersei to escape so she can wreak further havoc in future books. And, most likely, cause the death of and kill their two remaining children. And then Jaime can strangle that bitch. Yay!!!!!!

Anyway, sorry to bore everyone with the Cersei/ Jaime debate issue. But I honestly think that this is one area where she is not clearly in the wrong; and that the relationship dissolved due to equal amounts of selfishness, greater priorities, and growing apart on both of their parts, rather than from PURE EVIL on Cersei’s part. (Again, I’m not denying that Cersei has not done some truly evil things, I’m just noting that I don’t think any of them were perpetrated against Jaime.) Their problems were due to a mix of mistakes made by both of them.

That said, I won’t bring the matter up again.

One more thing that does not diminish my appreciation of Cersei—how she is emotionally honest, and utterly unfair. Initially, when I read AFFC, I was disgusted by what I took to be her unfounded hatred and malice towards Margary. But on a recent reread… well, though I can’t say I approve of it or believe that it’s right, I can actually sort of feel where Cersei is coming from with her feelings of bitterness and resentment towards the girl.

Tommen’s wedding was sort of a revelation for me in understanding where Cersei was coming from regarding Margary. Here, Cersei has just shortly before lost her first born son. Meanwhile, Margary the Merry widow is all geared up to marry Tommen pretty much before Joff's corpse can even get cold, and is laughing and dancing at the wedding like the happiest girl alive. Not that i blame her-- Joff was a nutty little sadist, and Margary is totally justified in not mourning him. But I can see where Cersei is coming from, with her outrage that Marary is so glib and happy after losing her husband, Cersei's son. It's not justified or (perhaps) even normal that Cersei should want Margary to be weeping her eyes out over king joffrey but, it is, from an emotional standpoint, somehow understandable.

Or maybe I'm just nuts...

[Queen Cersei I]

Edit. Sorry, double post.

[Stannis the Great]

I would love to know what agenda this is that I have, and for the record "whore" and "bitch" are not interchangeable terms. The word whore has very specific gendered negative sexual connotations. We may have become desensitived to using it, but the original meaning of the word is very clear.

My impression of your agenda was that you thought that because I criticised Cersei for cheating on Jaime it meant that I was (somehow) sexist. Of course the word whore has negative connotations for women, it has been used a pejorative for a long time now. However recently the definition has become blurred and although it is still used as a pejorative, the context in which it has been used has changed. People nowadays throw around the word whore as if it is nothing and terrible as the original term may have been it has been diluted by the fact that it has lost most of its original meaning in modern vernacular. That is why I believe that people when calling Cersei a whore they are using the word incorrectly.

This is almost ironic because if memory serves the word whore derives from a Nordic word for adulterer.

[Verboten]

Queen Cersei I you are hereby limited to a mere 27 words per post in the Cersei Appreciation thread. :whip:

[LadyoftheNorth72]

We see plenty of women in the series using either outright sex or the promise of sex through flirtatious behaviour or other means to get what they want.

Off the top of my head:

Arianne Asha Dany Jeyne Westerling

and they are probably others that I've missed.

As I said above, yes, there are other women who are technical (paid) whores, and women having indiscriminate or goal-oriented sex. But the fact that there are others does not mean Cersei isn't one. If it is the word itself that is the problem, then let's substitute it with promiscuous. But again, trying to say Cersei is not guilty of being promiscuous because other women are too, is like saying Gregor Clegane is not a murderer because there are other murderers running about.

There are many problems with Cersei, but her sexual activity isn't one of them. I wish for her sake she didn't have to resort to such means, but she's not to be singled out as some Jezebel because of them.

She never HAD to resort to any of the things she did. She was not having sex with Jaime to feed starving children, she did it because she wanted to, and it had the added bonus of feeling like she was getting revenge on Robert. I think wanting revenge on Robert is one thing I absolutely cannot blame her for, but wanting/helping bring about his death was a bit extreme.

She did not have sex with Lancel at gunpoint. She had him help try to bring about Robert's death. There is no point debating to what extent they are responsible for it vs. Robert himself and the boar; she admitted having Robert given strongwine by Lancel in the HOPES that it would have that outcome. After that, she was more or less stuck with Lancel, because he knew her little secret. And here is part of why I say the behavior was stupid as well as immoral; Lancel was in a position to ruin her and she let him go on breathing.

She certainly was not forced to plot Margaery's death and use Osney to do it. She chose, over a long period of plotting and planning, to try to kill Margaery. She may not have liked the girl or the power the Tyrells were gaining, and she may have felt threatened by the whole prophecy thing, but plotting a judicial murder on the basis of faked or real sexual indiscretion by Margaery was entirely Cersei's choice.

And Taena ...well, whatever.

[Stannis the Great]

(And people see this as justification for Jaime abandoning Cersei to a near certain death, and actually root for him to strangle her? Yikes.)

I'm not sure if you're referring to my post earlier in the thread about wanting Jaime to strangle Cersei but I want to make clear it had nothing to do with Cersei cheating on Jaime but rather on her assuming that a prophecy is true and then tormenting Tyrion purely because of prophecy. It would have been poetic justice had Jaime been the one to strangle her, the brother she never suspected. It had nothing to do with the fact that Cersei is a woman, it's more to do with her horrible personality and general idiocy. My feelings towards Cersei would be the same if she were a man.

[Queen Cersei I]

Queen Cersei I you are hereby limited to a mere 27 words per post in the Cersei Appreciation thread. :whip:

LOL, okay. My last post on this thread, then. :spank: :blush: :leaving: