Azor Ahai and Nissa Nissa: Sacrifice Semantics

[RevengeOfTheStarks]

I know we've been assuming that the white walkers are avatars - magical beings that melt away when stabbed by the dragonglass - as opposed to living things. But, what if a human were stabbed with a sword so cold that he or she was "flash frozen" to death? The human body might then shatter and collapse into a pile of frozen dust. If we saw this strange death, would we assume then that the human was a magical being, an avatar for something else? I guess I'm just wondering if thinking of the white walkers as mere glamours is perhaps based on a shaky assumption.

That's a good point, but i think the problem lies in the fact that the dragonglass daggers aren't actually super hot. They're normal temperature glass that has some sort of magical property imbibed in it that allows for complete destruction of ice beings. Because the weapon itself works in some magical way, it kind of follows that the the nature of the thing it's destroying is also very magical, which lends credence to the avatar idea. It's not just a simple physical reaction like the hypothetical freeze dried human.

[RevengeOfTheStarks]

Regarding the actual NW and the sacrifices/vows:

We've been throwing around some ideas on the heresy thread about the NW predating the Long Night and all of that. I also subcribe to the NW being Lightbringer theory. I want to examine the three attempts at forging Lightbringer in light of the idea that the NW is a much older and less human institution than we think.

Let's assume that the NW was an original idea of the Children, with the main purpose being to keep the harmony in Westeros, which would entail keeping it, and the weirwoods safe from invaders. The first attempt at forging Lightbringer ended with it's tempering, and shattering, in water. The first invasion of Westeros by weirwood destroyers (the First Men) was met with the smashing of the Arm of Dorne by the Hammer of the Waters, an effort of the COTF, or some group of Children, powerful in the ways of magic. However, this too was a failure, it was too late to stop the advance of the FM, war ensued, weirwoods were burned, Children slaughtered.

The first smashing of the Greenseers of the Children after failure of the Hammer of the Waters = Ist forging and breaking of Lightbringer in water?

The Children and FM ended their war on the Isle of Faces, where the wood dancers and greenseers of the Children met with representatives of the FM and formed a pact. I think this pact was supposed to be the second forging of the NW/Lightbringer, this time including the FM, who had adopted the religion of the Children. However, it once again broke in its tempering, aka testing, against the Andals.

There are two ways to view the tempering and breaking of the sword: In the first, the sword breaks when the children fail to bring down the HotW again at the neck. the Children once again attempted to cut the invaders off from the rest of the continent, this time forced farther north, at the neck, and once again they failed. The Children's Tower stands with its top blasted off, and we know the Andals succeeded in entrenching themselves, burning weirdwoods, and slaughtering the Children wherever they found them. I'm going to stretch a bit to explain how the tempering in a Lion comes into this. The NW broke this time against the Andals, and the sigil of the Andal house of Lannister is the Lion. The Lannisters are "fair haired and tall" like the original Andals, pure enough in their Andal genetics with little intermarrying so that they retain these traits.

The second interpretation of Lightbringer breaking in a Lion is the one I favor overwhelmingly: The NW/ Lightbringer broke in a Lion in ADWD, with the assassination of Jon. This iteration of the NW was forged at the Pact, this stands. It was supposed to represent an alliance between FM and the Children, but it slowly deteriorated as the Andals invaded and took over culturally. The NW was slowly turned from its true purpose, slowly turned back on its alliance with the Children, and the breaking point came with the current Wars, culminating in the betrayal of LC Jon, the last person who gave a crap about preserving the original purpose of the watch. Why Lions? Because Lannisters are the direct cause of the wars leading up to this event, Lannisters are teh direct cause of the fall of House Stark, and indirectly, what caused Jon to put himself in the position he was in when assassinated.

So...the second smashing of the combined forces of Children and FM = 2nd forging and breaking of Lightbringer in a Lion?

Finally, this brings us to the third forging, which is supposed to be the only succesfull one. The forging will happen in the WoW, probably with Jon's resurrection, but the testing, the tempering will come when the NW has to "sacrifice" something precious to it in order to fulfill its actual purpose. Any ideas what this could be?

[GreenDream]

@ Apple, I think your theory makes quite a bit of sense.

I just had an idea I thought I might add here. In Jon's dream :

"Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist. As the dead men reached the top of the Wall he sent them down to die again. He slew a greybeard and a beardless boy, a giant, a gaunt man filled with teeth, a girl with thick red hair. Too late he recognized Ygritte. She was gone as quick as she'd appeared."

What if the symbolism of Jon being armored in black ice..... what if that meant that the wall was his armor?

[Ser Leftwich]

Referencing possible metaphors or interpretations of the sacrifice of a lion:

I believe there was a reference in the books that lions are extinct in Westeros (which does not include mountain lions). We also know that there is something like a lion in Essos, the pelt that Dany wears from Drogo.

Maybe the sacrifice of AA of a lion was of all the lions or the last lion in Westeros, one of the other races that fled to North of the Wall, but would not have survived.

ETA: The lions being something that the CoTF were willing to sacrifice.

[Ser Elvin of Clymer]

Seems like the topic is changing a bit, but I enjoyed the idea of Lightbringer=The Night Watch, then during my DwD reread I noticed this Xaro paragraph describing the Unsullied

Quote

Dany - "Do you know how the Unsullied are made and trained?"

"Cruelly, I have no doubt. When a smith makes a sword, he thrusts the blade into the fire, beats on it with a hammer, then plunges it into iced water to temper the steel. If you would savor the sweet taste of the fruit, you must water the tree."

"this tree has been watered with blood."

"How else, to grow a soldier?" pg 207, DwD

Felt like it wasn't very significant overall, but interesting that the theory has been used in the book, to describe people as being forged like a sword.

[sillent]

Since Jon was in command of the Wall during the attack, and then he became the 998th LC -- and might potentially become the 1000th LC as well, that could tie in to the trying to forge the sword three times.. and it finally works the third time?

sorry if someone brought this up already I've been skimming but I'm super tired

[Ragnorak]

This I admit I'm kind of struggling for. I've read some theories that the ice of the Wall itself is the "water," i.e. that the Wall (the water) wasn't strong enough to hold the Watch together.

The lion, I'm not sure about yet. Lannister involvement? Who knows.

"Tempered by water" just means "tempered like every other sword." The water need not have any specific symbolism it just means that the same vows and conditions of normal service to a Lord were inadequate, or hereditary ascension to LC was inadequate. It could possibly be structural. The original attempt at the Watch was fuedal like Westeros. That failed so the Lion was direct alliegiance to the LC without a fuedal structure. The Night's King might even be one of the "forged sword's" that broke.

Not a lot to go on with the Lion part-- everything feels like a stretch. Maybe "captured" is the right focus. The North was its own Kingdom then so they brought in a Lannister, a Lord from outside the North.

Absolutely love the theory. Aemon's scene with the fake Lightbringer still nags at me a bit. Feels off as a red herring.