Azor Ahai and Nissa Nissa: Sacrifice Semantics

[Ser Gei]

Interesting stuff here.

Apple Martini, I am curious, if you have thought about Nights Watch being the Lightbringer of Azor Ahai, and that the sacrifice of Nissa Nissa meant just to have no family, the Night Watch style.. How do you interpret the first and second attempts to create the Lightbringer? In the legend, first the sword was tried to be tempered by plain water, second time by thrusting the sword in a lions heart, and only after these attempts failed, the third sword AA made was tempered by thrusting it into Nissa Nissa.

Did Azor Ahai first try to quit drinking, and secondly to leave his pet behind? :drunk:

[Unhit]

I really like your idea, and especially want to credityour well-thought out and closed-in-itself theory. I'd just change one thing, as I already posted in your other thread concerning the NW, AA and LB; namely taking the NW as AA and the Wall as LB. That doesn't, however, change the main argument in any way, especially the nice part about the sacrifice. Really good job there.

[Whatever]

The King of Winter returning does not have to be considered a good thing, it depends on what it means. Were the Kings of Winter nice people?

God, I hope not! I want some not-so-nice Starks! Please!

I agree that it's wishful thinking. None of the Stark children have ever reunited.

They will.

The wolves will return (cit. Jojen Reed)

I'd appreciate the effort but I'd want a new job somewhere else. I could see it if Jeor wasn't also killed by his men. This is getting to be like the equivalent of marrying Margaery-a death wish.

Well, this is awesome. Also, after Jeor-Renly and Jon-Joffrey, i think we need a third LC to be Tommen's equivalent

It would be hard to have an effective relationship without trust. Jon might start getting Targ paranoia to some degree when he comes back. That doesn't mean he will go mad but he might not be the same. It seems like the NW will fail because the Others will move as far as the Trident imo.

I hope so. As I said, I'd like to see a not-so-good Stark, and Paranoid!Jon would be great.

[Dreadwolf]

Interesting…

A little bit off-topic but just to say that: I have always thought that Nissa-Nissa story is a kind of version of an old legend of a <love sacrifice>. The only sacrifice that is even much evil that abnegation (self-sacrifice). It is said that the variation of the same story/ myth has been brought into existence in many places and in different countries. I did not explore the case but what I can say for sure is that in my country (Bulgaria) we have:

A master-mason once had started to build a house or it was a tower I can*t exactly remember.

The construction constantly collapsed at a certain point of building progress. No matter how skillfully he had been working - it was unavoidable - At a specific point of its construction the building had always collapsed. Finally the Mason went to a holy-man (or it was a witch) and asked for an advice <what should be done there to finish the work?>. (I can*t remember why but it appears that it was an important project that by all means must have been finished. Let*s just presume it was another world-saving expedition of a kind). The answer was that some dark magic had been obstructing the building process and it would be always like that unless a counter magic was effectuated. The only existing and known counteract turned to be available was that the Builder had to wall up the shadow of his young (IIRC still untouched, as if the poor lad was incapable of bedding her after a hard day's work or otherwise magically prevented of so doing until his business is unfinished) bride.

And then it began once again and finally ended. The Young lass gasped out her life as soon as the last brick having sealed her shadow inside the construction was fixed.(1)

OTOH I thing we would not exaggerate (greatrly) the case with that sort of legends if we speculate that the main plot there somehow reflects the common saying that: <BEHIND EVERY SUCCESSFUL MAN, THERE IS A WOMAN> - driven to its crazy extreme...

Like it or not but IMHO - relics of similar notions are not excluded even today. And not only when the word is goingt on the <saving the world> business.

(1) an abstract directly taken as from my old post in a thread named < What exactly is an <<Other?>> >

[Grail King]

Interesting…

A little bit off-topic but just to say that: I have always thought that Nissa-Nissa story is a kind of version of an old legend of a <love sacrifice>. The only sacrifice that is even much evil that abnegation (self-sacrifice). It is said that the variation of the same story/ myth has been brought into existence in many places and in different countries. I did not explore the case but what I can say for sure is that in my country (Bulgaria) we have:

A master-mason once had started to build a house or it was a tower I can*t exactly remember.

The construction constantly collapsed at a certain point of building progress. No matter how skillfully he had been working - it was unavoidable - At a specific point of its construction the building had always collapsed. Finally the Mason went to a holy-man (or it was a witch) and asked for an advice <what should be done there to finish the work?>. (I can*t remember why but it appears that it was an important project that by all means must have been finished. Let*s just presume it was another world-saving expedition of a kind). The answer was that some dark magic had been obstructing the building process and it would be always like that unless a counter magic was effectuated. The only existing and known counteract turned to be available was that the Builder had to wall up the shadow of his young (IIRC still untouched, as if the poor lad was incapable of bedding her after a hard day's work or otherwise magically prevented of so doing until his business is unfinished) bride.

And then it began once again and finally ended. The Young lass gasped out her life as soon as the last brick having sealed her shadow inside the construction was fixed.(1)

OTOH I thing we would not exaggerate (greatrly) the case with that sort of legends if we speculate that the main plot there somehow reflects the common saying that: <BEHIND EVERY SUCCESSFUL MAN, THERE IS A WOMAN> - driven to its crazy extreme...

Like it or not but IMHO - relics of similar notions are not excluded even today. And not only when the word is goingt on the <saving the world> business.

(1) an abstract directly taken as from my old post in a thread named < What exactly is an <<Other?>> >

Just like Merlin and King Vortergan

[hotweaselsoup]

The Night's Watch = Lightbringer is an interesting theory, but now that Jon has "broken" twice, could it be Jon himself who is the metaphorical sword? Twice he has broken his vows to reach for what he wants most: to be a Stark, not a Snow. Could the third test be Robb's will, where he is offered Winterfell, the kingdom of the North, and the right to call himself Jon Stark? If he does not break here, if he holds to his Night's Watch vows even with everything he has always wanted there for the taking - I'd say that would be the same as driving a sword through the heart of the thing he loves most in the world.

Anyway, just another theory to bat around - bored kittens that we are :D

[Sister Goldenhair]

I think Jaime could be actually elected Lord Commander of the Knight's Watch in this way. Brienne instead of taking him to Lady Stoneheart to be hanged may take it upon herself to take Jaime to the Wall where he could get elected with Brienne becoming his bodyguard (a new position as Lord Commander's guard). If the sword itself is the Night's Watch then he would wield Light Bringer.

But in all probability Jaime won't get there in time and whoever is elected will expel the Wildings and the Others will kill the Wildings and become Whites and the tohers will become even more powerful.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Interesting stuff here.

Apple Martini, I am curious, if you have thought about Nights Watch being the Lightbringer of Azor Ahai, and that the sacrifice of Nissa Nissa meant just to have no family, the Night Watch style.. How do you interpret the first and second attempts to create the Lightbringer? In the legend, first the sword was tried to be tempered by plain water, second time by thrusting the sword in a lions heart, and only after these attempts failed, the third sword AA made was tempered by thrusting it into Nissa Nissa.

Did Azor Ahai first try to quit drinking, and secondly to leave his pet behind? :drunk:

This I admit I'm kind of struggling for. I've read some theories that the ice of the Wall itself is the "water," i.e. that the Wall (the water) wasn't strong enough to hold the Watch together.

The lion, I'm not sure about yet. Lannister involvement? Who knows.

[Ser Gei]

This I admit I'm kind of struggling for. I've read some theories that the ice of the Wall itself is the "water," i.e. that the Wall (the water) wasn't strong enough to hold the Watch together.

The lion, I'm not sure about yet. Lannister involvement? Who knows.

OK. I was hoping you would have some better theories than me, because I really like the idea of Night Watch being the Lightbringer.

The water = Ice Wall makes sense for me. To only build a wall, no matter how gigantic it is, is not enough to keep the enemy behind it. You have to guard it as well. Perhaps the first attempt to shield Westeros from the Others was made by simply making this insanely high Wall and leave it there.

When that begun to fail for the obvious reasons, the Wall was decided to be guarded. But maybe the first guard consisted of e.g. sellswords or other soldiers, whose motive to protect the Wall was merely money (Ok, quite a weak reference to the lion, but let's not worry about it). I doubt this would be enough in long term, the Wall is hideous place, who wants to stay there for long? What good is the money if you don't get to spend it anywhere? Perhaps the bounty soldiers begun to slack down their duties, thus letting the enemy across the Wall again = sword was again shattered.

Then, this idea of Nights Watch was somehow imposed on people, that you guard the realm of men and that is highly honorable and oh man you all are so great and brave, especially for not letting anything worthless - like, say, wifes and children and family and castles and land and wealth - come between you and your glorious duty. And what do you know, there were enough of Starks and likes who thought this is good enough way to spend my life, let's guard this Wall in this merciless coldness forever, no family for us, just black clothes, we are Brothers and Shield and what else, maybe Sword too, because we are so cool and so honorable. You, Starkard Stark, the Starkest Stark of them all, you are the coolest, you can be our 1st Lord Commander.

And then all the rest could just slowly start to sneak back towards south, all the while complimenting these jackasses who stayed to stand on top of the icy Wall, boasting their honor and bravery. And when they finally were far enough the Wall, everybody erupted in laughter because they could not believe it had worked, and go like "now let's leave them there and go to somewhere warm like Dorne and make babies".

[Howlin' Howland Reed]

I certainly like Ser Gei's general idea that the two failed attempts at tempering the steel are analogous to that of failed/incomplete attempts to create what we now know as the Night's Watch. The Wiki mentions that the Wall was smaller at first (I can't recall this from the books, unfortunately) and raised higher by frozen blocks of ice, so that could be the water part. It was also noted by tze in another thread, that Sam only used part of the vow to open the weirwood door, notably leaving out the part of about wifes, and lands, and sons --- so that could tie into Ser Gei's idea that the NW at first never had to sacrifice part of their familial ties.

ETA: Here's the post that mentions Sam's vows.

[Unhit]

The lion, I'm not sure about yet. Lannister involvement? Who knows.

Maybe the Lion should be interpreteted metaphorically as well - representing pride. To enter the Watch, one must forsake their pride, because they will no longer be able to attain glory as a king or great knight. Then, sacrificing the lion would mean sacrificing the lion in oneself, thus one's pride and desire to be king.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Maybe the Lion should be interpreteted metaphorically as well - representing pride. To enter the Watch, one must forsake their pride, because they will no longer be able to attain glory as a king or great knight. Then, sacrificing the lion would mean sacrificing the lion in oneself, thus one's pride and desire to be king.

That's a good point, too. I definitely don't think it was a literal lion, the same way I don't think it's a literal sword or a literal blood sacrifice. A lion is a fairly specific thing and the sigil of a major family, but that might not mean anything at all.

I'm really liking the thought that the three attempts to "temper" Lightbringer were really attempts to successfully found the first iteration of the Night's Watch. Really thought-provoking stuff and, to me, much more fascinating to think about than some dude killing big cats with a sword.

EDIT: I didn't see tze's post about Sam's vows working to open the gate at the Nightfort. It makes a lot of sense that the vows could have been added to later, based on circumstances and need. The Nightfort is, after all, the oldest castle on the wall ...

[Clementine]

So then, if we apply this theory to Jon's dream in ADWD:

Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist. As the dead men reached the top of the Wall he sent them down to die again. He slew a greybeard and a beardless boy, a giant, a gaunt man filled with teeth, a girl with thick red hair. Too late he recognized Ygritte. She was gone as quick as she'd appeared.

The world dissolved into a red mist. Jon stabbed and slashed and cut. He hacked down Donal Noye, and gutted Deaf Dick Follard. Qhorin Halfhand stumbled to his knees, trying in vain to staunch the flow of blood from his neck. "I

am

the Lord of Winterfell,"Jon screamed. It was Robb before him now, his hair wet with melting snow. Longclaw took his head off

If the Night's Watch itself is Lightbringer, Jon imagining that he is killing his friends and other members of the Night's Watch could correspond to some potential guilt he will feel over 'wielding' them to the defeat the Others, since this will likely send them to their deaths ( or has already resulted in their deaths)

The "I am the Lord of Winterfell" bit is a reference to Jon's Nissa Nissa ( the sacrifice of being Lord of Winterfell, done for the Watch). Also, the part where he sees Robb fits with this too, since Jon's sacrificed his own desire to help Robb for the Watch. Jon probably still feels some guilt over this, given what happened to Robb.

Either way though, aside from the dream, one part that is not clear to me is how the 'dragon has three heads' bit fits into this. I think someone mentioned above that this theory doesn't seem to have a role in it for Dany, which is true and a problem I think, since I feel that GRRM has made it clear that she is involved in the fight against the Others.

Perhaps , like many other on this board have said, the AA and PTWP prophecies really are one meta-prophecy that refer to 3 separate people, who together are AA. So then, we have 1) the AA that wields( or commands) Lightbringer as the 'Aegon' of the trio, 2) the AA that 'wakes the dragons', which is Dany and 3) an unknown AA, possibly Tyrion.

So maybe, this is how it all goes down: Dany eventually gets to the Wall, and finds Stannis( who may not be dead) in charge of the Watch. This corresponds to her vision in the House of the Undying, of the 'blue-eyed lord' with Lightbringer, in the 'slayer of lies' sequence'. She then ends Stannis's control of the Watch by reviving Jon in some way, perhaps by lighting one of her fires ( love, death, or life, not sure which).

The revived Jon then has to 'temper' the Watch in some way, either to accept him back as LC, or just otherwise to lead them. The thing is though, if Jon is actually dead at the ADWD, then technically 'his watch has ended', so I'm not sure if he'll be still bound by the full Oath, even if he does command them. Not sure how this will play out..

The 'tempering' of the watch could involve water and/or lion's blood. Like Apple Martini and Unhit, I don't think its a literal reference either. Maybe Jon has to make a final Nissa Nissa sacrifice to accomplish it? However, my pet theory is that if there are 3 AAs, then maybe one of them has to make the final Nissa Nissa sacrifice - like Tyrion for instance, who would correspond nicely to the 'lion's blood' part. Poor Jon has suffered enough.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

So then, if we apply this theory to Jon's dream in ADWD:

If the Night's Watch itself is Lightbringer, Jon imagining that he is killing his friends and other members of the Night's Watch could correspond to some potential guilt he will feel over 'wielding' them to the defeat the Others, since this will likely send them to their deaths ( or has already resulted in their deaths)

The "I am the Lord of Winterfell" bit is a reference to Jon's Nissa Nissa ( the sacrifice of being Lord of Winterfell, done for the Watch). Also, the part where he sees Robb fits with this too, since Jon's sacrificed his own desire to help Robb for the Watch. Jon probably still feels some guilt over this, given what happened to Robb.

Either way though, aside from the dream, one part that is not clear to me is how the 'dragon has three heads' bit fits into this. I think someone mentioned above that this theory doesn't seem to have a role in it for Dany, which is true and a problem I think, since I feel that GRRM has made it clear that she is involved in the fight against the Others.

Perhaps , like many other on this board have said, the AA and PTWP prophecies really are one meta-prophecy that refer to 3 separate people, who together are AA. So then, we have 1) the AA that wields( or commands) Lightbringer as the 'Aegon' of the trio, 2) the AA that 'wakes the dragons', which is Dany and 3) an unknown AA, possibly Tyrion.

So maybe, this is how it all goes down: Dany eventually gets to the Wall, and finds Stannis( who may not be dead) in charge of the Watch. This corresponds to her vision in the House of the Undying, of the 'blue-eyed lord' with Lightbringer, in the 'slayer of lies' sequence'. She then ends Stannis's control of the Watch by reviving Jon in some way, perhaps by lighting one of her fires ( love, death, or life, not sure which).

The revived Jon then has to 'temper' the Watch in some way, either to accept him back as LC, or just otherwise to lead them. The thing is though, if Jon is actually dead at the ADWD, then technically 'his watch has ended', so I'm not sure if he'll be still bound by the full Oath, even if he does command them. Not sure how this will play out..

The 'tempering' of the watch could involve water and/or lion's blood. Like Apple Martini and Unhit, I don't think its a literal reference either. Maybe Jon has to make a final Nissa Nissa sacrifice to accomplish it? However, my pet theory is that if there are 3 AAs, then maybe one of them has to make the final Nissa Nissa sacrifice - like Tyrion for instance, who would correspond nicely to the 'lion's blood' part. Poor Jon has suffered enough.

This is probably some form of sacrilege, and it could just be my own bias in that I freaking can't stand her anymore, but I'm not 100% convinced that, in the end, Dany will be as critical as everyone seems to think she is.

People say, "Dany doesn't fit into this."

I say, "So?"

I realize that I'm probably incorrect and that she'll do ... something ... but I'm not convinced that she's really the savior some people make her out to be. If she "saves" Westeros the way she's "saved" Slaver's Bay, I'm going to root for the Others.

ETA: I do think it's convenient that the AA prophecy mentions a lion's blood, and we have Tyrion in play, somehow. I like the idea that the lion could mean worldly power and glory, but I don't think its role as a sigil should be entirely discounted.

[Clementine]

This is probably some form of sacrilege, and it could just be my own bias in that I freaking can't stand her anymore, but I'm not 100% convinced that, in the end, Dany will be as critical as everyone seems to think she is.

People say, "Dany doesn't fit into this."

I say, "So?"

I realize that I'm probably incorrect and that she'll do ... something ... but I'm not convinced that she's really the savior some people make her out to be. If she "saves" Westeros the way she's "saved" Slaver's Bay, I'm going to root for the Others.

ETA: I do think it's convenient that the AA prophecy mentions a lion's blood, and we have Tyrion in play, somehow. I like the idea that the lion could mean worldly power and glory, but I don't think its role as a sigil should be entirely discounted.

Well, you're definitely right that Dany's track record isn't great, and she's hardly my fav character either. However, there has to be some reason she exists in the first place. The fact that she has been the only character in her POV for so many books makes me feel like GRRM has something big planned for her, otherwise why have her in at all?

I don't think she'll be a 'saviour' on her own - she may not even survive the series end. But I do think based on the clues in the other books, she, along with Tyrion and Jon have some role to play.

[Black Crow]

Well, you're definitely right that Dany's track record isn't great, and she's hardly my fav character either. However, there has to be some reason she exists in the first place. The fact that she has been the only character in her POV for so many books makes me feel like GRRM has something big planned for her, otherwise why have her in at all?

Jon has to kill her to save Westeros :devil:

[ARYa_Nym]

Dany will die giving birth to Jon's child imo. Then Drogo will return to her. It doesn't make sense for there to be only two Targaryens left and they both can't have children. I'm not sure if Dany will survive after she bears a living child because of MMD's curse. Jon should have more children after that imo because his house's line is much too thin even if he never becomes king.

[Sister Goldenhair]

Disagree about all of this. I think "Lightbringer" is the sword that Brienne carries (the one Jaime gave her that was Ned's) when it is forged it will become fire and ice. Jon will join Bran and work with the Others not against them.

[tze]

Well, you're definitely right that Dany's track record isn't great, and she's hardly my fav character either. However, there has to be some reason she exists in the first place. The fact that she has been the only character in her POV for so many books makes me feel like GRRM has something big planned for her, otherwise why have her in at all?

I don't think she'll be a 'saviour' on her own - she may not even survive the series end. But I do think based on the clues in the other books, she, along with Tyrion and Jon have some role to play.

I'm starting to genuinely believe that Jon will be resurrected, forge a peace with the Others, and the endgame is actually a fight between Jon and Dany, not humanity vs the Others. Rather than forging her into a savior figure, I think Dany's sojourn into the East has transformed her into an arrogant wreck with a messiah complex and an undeserved, Cersei-like belief in her own superhuman-ness; rather than serving as a champion against the Others, since she isn't actually a fighter, has no winter-weather capabilities, and her whole battle "genius" is basically "expect my enemies to be incompetent and expect their soldiers to break and come over to my side", I think she'll actually end up as our villain. That would serve GRRM well, I think: he spends so many books on the sojourn of the stereotypical exiled magic princess, and the purpose isn't to have her swoop in at the end to save the day, it's to show why being in exile and being a magic princess don't actually qualify someone to rule anything. It isn't about Dany's "hero journey," it's about her "villain journey".

Maybe the Lion should be interpreteted metaphorically as well - representing pride. To enter the Watch, one must forsake their pride, because they will no longer be able to attain glory as a king or great knight. Then, sacrificing the lion would mean sacrificing the lion in oneself, thus one's pride and desire to be king.

This is by far my favorite "lion" theory. The "original" tempering in the lion can't have referred to the Lannisters because they're way too young a House; they're Andals, and they aren't even "original" Andal rulers, as they stole Casterly Rock from the Casterlys. The sacrifice of the lion representing the sacrifice of one's own pride makes perfect sense.

[1234567]

Jon took command of the Wall while it was under attack and the steps were on fire so it may fit some of the prophecy. I do like the theory that the Wall is Lightbringer though.

Also I really like the mistranslation through time idea.