Azor Ahai and Nissa Nissa: Sacrifice Semantics

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Disagree about all of this. I think "Lightbringer" is the sword that Brienne carries (the one Jaime gave her that was Ned's) when it is forged it will become fire and ice. Jon will join Bran and work with the Others not against them.

You think it's an actual sword. That's ... cute.

This is by far my favorite "lion" theory. The "original" tempering in the lion can't have referred to the Lannisters because they're way too young a House; they're Andals, and they aren't even "original" Andal rulers, as they stole Casterly Rock from the Casterlys. The sacrifice of the lion representing the sacrifice of one's own pride makes perfect sense.

Good catch on that. I knew that Lann the Clever tricked the Casterlys out of the Rock, but wasn't sure about the timeline. Now that you mention the Andals, it comes back. So the "original" lion, at least, would not have been a Lannister.

I really, really, really hope though that Jon and Dany don't become a thing. I'm so over incest it's not even funny.

[Sister Goldenhair]

You think it's an actual sword. That's ... cute.

Good catch on that. I knew that Lann the Clever tricked the Casterlys out of the Rock, but wasn't sure about the timeline. Now that you mention the Andals, it comes back. So the "original" lion, at least, would not have been a Lannister.

I really, really, really hope though that Jon and Dany don't become a thing. I'm so over incest it's not even funny.

Dany has been brought up to hate the Starks so a lot of brain washing would have to happen for them to become a thing, especially if Jon ends up warging into his wolfe or if he's kept on ice if dead after the last book.

Yes, I think it really "cute" that Light Bringer could be a real sword.

[Clementine]

Good catch on that. I knew that Lann the Clever tricked the Casterlys out of the Rock, but wasn't sure about the timeline. Now that you mention the Andals, it comes back. So the "original" lion, at least, would not have been a Lannister.

The original lion may not have been a Lannister, but its possible that the tempering by lions blood could refer to a Lannister and the tempering of one's pride for the Watch - GRRM is really good with multiple layers of symbolism.

I'm starting to genuinely believe that Jon will be resurrected, forge a peace with the Others, and the endgame is actually a fight between Jon and Dany, not humanity vs the Others. Rather than forging her into a savior figure, I think Dany's sojourn into the East has transformed her into an arrogant wreck with a messiah complex and an undeserved, Cersei-like belief in her own superhuman-ness; rather than serving as a champion against the Others, since she isn't actually a fighter, has no winter-weather capabilities, and her whole battle "genius" is basically "expect my enemies to be incompetent and expect their soldiers to break and come over to my side", I think she'll actually end up as our villain. That would serve GRRM well, I think: he spends so many books on the sojourn of the stereotypical exiled magic princess, and the purpose isn't to have her swoop in at the end to save the day, it's to show why being in exile and being a magic princess don't actually qualify someone to rule anything. It isn't about Dany's "hero journey," it's about her "villain journey".

Dany and Jon fighting one another is an interesting idea. One thing I wished was in ADWD was Barristan Selmy giving Dany the equivalent of a 'verbal smackdown', the way that Donal Noye did for Jon in the first book, when he felt he was so much better than all the other recruits in the Night's Watch. However, now that you mention this, it makes me think that it probably never happened for reasons of future plot - perhaps its Jon, or another Stark, that will be the one to let her know what her family was really like. So yeah, they definitely might not be on the best of terms, at least initially. Maybe this is the 'tempering' of pride that will occur to forge Lightbringer, if I'm wrong about the Lannister connection?

However, Dany being a villain is IMO a pretty big stretch. Given her dream in ACOK, it seems clear to me that she's fighting the Others. I'm interested in a possible scenario that you might have where Jon and Dany would battle against one another -over what, and for what purpose?

On a side note: I'm pretty new here, but the more I explore these boards, the more Dany-hate I'm encountering, which is kind of shocking to me. I'm not a huge fan of her, but I never realized the fans hate her so much. IMO Dany's failures do not stem from malice, just ignorance and a misplaced desire to do good that is unchecked by reality. Its true she's not a great strategist, or fighter, but perhaps this is why there is (possibly, of course) 3 dragon's heads- the other two will compensate for her weaknesses. Or, she could experience some more character evolution later on

[tze]

The original lion may not have been a Lannister, but its possible that the tempering by lions blood could refer to a Lannister and the tempering of one's pride for the Watch - GRRM is really good with multiple layers of symbolism.

That's an interesting point. Actually, have we seen people in modern days from any other House whose sigil is also a lion? We had the Osgreys back in Dunk and Egg (The Sworn Sword) whose sigil was a checquy lion, but I can't remember if there are any Osgreys left. The Reynes of Castamere had a crimson lion as their sigil---they're supposedly all dead, but maybe a relative survived? I could have sworn I read about someone with a sleeping lion as his sigil, but I can't remember who.

Dany and Jon fighting one another is an interesting idea. One thing I wished was in ADWD was Barristan Selmy giving Dany the equivalent of a 'verbal smackdown', the way that Donal Noye did for Jon in the first book, when he felt he was so much better than all the other recruits in the Night's Watch. However, now that you mention this, it makes me think that it probably never happened for reasons of future plot - perhaps its Jon, or another Stark, that will be the one to let her know what her family was really like. So yeah, they definitely might not be on the best of terms, at least initially. Maybe this is the 'tempering' of pride that will occur to forge Lightbringer, if I'm wrong about the Lannister connection?

Maybe it's as simple as saying that a person cannot be Azor Ahai reborn unless he or she "slays" his/her pride?

However, Dany being a villain is IMO a pretty big stretch. Given her dream in ACOK, it seems clear to me that she's fighting the Others. I'm interested in a possible scenario that you might have where Jon and Dany would battle against one another -over what, and for what purpose?

That dream is one reason why I put forth the Dany/Jon fight scenario. Dany dreams about fighting an army armored in ice at the Trident. In ADWD, Jon dreams about being armored in ice. Dany's dream could easily mean she'll fight an army sworn to King Jon of the North and Trident at the Trident. (Interestingly, unless I've missed something (possible), the Others themselves have never actually been described as being armored in ice.)

As to why they'd fight, if Jon gets named King in the North (which is still speculation, but I think is very possible), then he and Dany would have to clash once she finally gets to Westeros; she wants the Iron Throne, Jon would be claiming half of "her" kingdom. And I can't see Jon bowing down to Dany unless her political, economic, and military skills really, really impressed him, and based on what she's done so far, I think Jon would trust his own rulership skills far more than he'd trust Dany's.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

That's an interesting point. Actually, have we seen people in modern days from any other House whose sigil is also a lion? We had the Osgreys back in Dunk and Egg (The Sworn Sword) whose sigil was a checquy lion, but I can't remember if there are any Osgreys left. The Reynes of Castamere had a crimson lion as their sigil---they're supposedly all dead, but maybe a relative survived? I could have sworn I read about someone with a sleeping lion as his sigil, but I can't remember who.

It was the member of the Kingsguard whom Jaime replaced. He was old and went in his sleep.

[ARYa_Nym]

Jon saw himself fighting in an armor of black ice.

Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist.

This could be a nod to his father Rhaegar as he wore black armor while simultaneously referring to an armor made out of obsidian.

I think Dany's dream said armored in ice to let us know that she was really fighting wights/the Others and not the Usurpers like thought she was.

[Black Crow]

That dream is one reason why I put forth the Dany/Jon fight scenario. Dany dreams about fighting an army armored in ice at the Trident. In ADWD, Jon dreams about being armored in ice. Dany's dream could easily mean she'll fight an army sworn to King Jon of the North and Trident at the Trident. (Interestingly, unless I've missed something (possible), the Others themselves have never actually been described as being armored in ice.)

The fact that the armour is black may indeed be a nod to R+L=J (though not one that Jon would understand) but is more likely to be a more direct reference to his Nights Watch blacks, especially if he's fated to change sides on recovering, magically or otherwise, from the assassination attempt. I've been arguing on my heresy thread that the Watch originally started off defending the Wall against the south until the Night's King was deposed and suggest that the vision of armour of black ice may be symbolic of Jon returning a part of the Watch to the allegiance of the Old Gods.

As to the Others (by which I assume you mean the White Walkers) they are nowhere described as wearing armour of ice, although its obviously as cold, but rather a stealth armour like that which Maester Luwin said the Children wore.

[ARYa_Nym]

I just remembered Patchface so Dany might indeed fight the NW in a round about way if you believe what he says is prophetic

“The crow, the crow,” Patchface cried when he saw Jon. “Under the sea the crows are white as snow, I know, I know, oh, oh, oh.”

I think under the sea refers to death so Jon "dies" and is white as snow (Ghost) . Patchface also said crows though which could signify the NW.

& when Jon spoke of Hardhome:

“I will lead it!” His bells rang merrily. “We will march into the sea and out again. Under the waves we will ride seahorses, and mermaids will blow seashells to announce our coming, oh, oh, oh.”

I think he was saying that if they would go there they would die and come back wights. Seahorses might be the ice spiders. Blow seashells might be the Horn of Joramun.

[Eyron]

About the Lion, there is also a "Lion of Night", the Yi Ti god of death. (seen in the House of Black and White)

I don't know the relations between Yi Ti and Asshai but it seems to be closer between them geographically than any other places from what we know so far. Maybe the Asshai use the symbolism of the Yi Ti gods too. I admit this is a very vague connection :)

My interpretation would be that the AA "plunged" his men (himself too?) into the heart of darkness to conquer the enemy, challenging death... Without success obviously because the "lightbringer" shatters. The AA however defies even death, and tries to "forge lightbringer" again.

I could also mean that the AA individually did this, to acquire his lightbringer. But then we loose the "plunge lightbringer" into the heart of the lion aspect (which could be a bit flawed of course).

I mentioned some time before that lightbringer may not need to be reforged again, since the AA did that already, but maybe it needs tempering in the areas that it has failed. The major failure would be that the NW fought men, the free folk, and lost it's true purpose, to fight the darkness and to risk their lives for the realms of men and the walls. (?)

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I mentioned some time before that lightbringer may not need to be reforged again, since the AA did that already, but maybe it needs tempering in the areas that it has failed. The major failure would be that the NW fought men, the free folk, and lost it's true purpose, to fight the darkness and to risk their lives for the realms of men and the walls. (?)

That's kind of how I interpret it. The Night's Watch is at, arguably, the lowest point in its history. It's lost a lot of good men (Benjen, Donal, etc.), its last two commanders were assassinated by their own subordinates, its maester is now dead, it's undermanned, no one really believes in its cause anymore. It's so broken and wayward that, for all intents and purposes, it needs to be "reforged" all over again.

[Clementine]

That dream is one reason why I put forth the Dany/Jon fight scenario. Dany dreams about fighting an army armored in ice at the Trident. In ADWD, Jon dreams about being armored in ice. Dany's dream could easily mean she'll fight an army sworn to King Jon of the North and Trident at the Trident. (Interestingly, unless I've missed something (possible), the Others themselves have never actually been described as being armored in ice.)

As to why they'd fight, if Jon gets named King in the North (which is still speculation, but I think is very possible), then he and Dany would have to clash once she finally gets to Westeros; she wants the Iron Throne, Jon would be claiming half of "her" kingdom. And I can't see Jon bowing down to Dany unless her political, economic, and military skills really, really impressed him, and based on what she's done so far, I think Jon would trust his own rulership skills far more than he'd trust Dany's.

Hmm, this is pretty interesting. Its true, I haven't read anywhere of the Others being armoured in Ice, they're made of ice. And the fact that its the 'Usurpers' army she sees means it could very well be the army of a rival King.

But the thing is, Jon was not just armoured in Ice in that dream, he had a fire sword too. So if you're right, and R+L=J is also true, then Dany would be fighting the army of Ice and Fire if she's fighting Jon, not just ice. I don't recall anything in Dany's dream that indicated that she was fighting both Ice and Fire, only ice.

[Black Crow]

Even prophetic dreams can be confusing and far from literal.

[Ser Arthyr Dracenstein]

If the Wall is somehow breached, the 999th Lord Commander of the Nightswatch is dead and the Nightswatch is leaderless and beaten back by the Others and a seemingly resurrected Jon Snow steps forward and gives a Henry V speech, then that might be how he tempers the remnants of the old Nightswatch into the new Lightbringer, the sacrifice Jon makes could be setting aside another chance of wife, family and home (be it Val/Meliasandre/Dany/Sansa/Cersei/one legged goatsherd whore and Winterfell) and lead the Last Stand against the Others.

EDIT: Hmmm, seemed to somehow post in wrong thread, thought I was posting in the Azor Ahai/The Prince that was Promised thread in the General section. (shrugs)

[Stark@heart]

Maybe Jon's already made the needed sacrifice in letting himself be stabbed/killed.

Think about it. Mel warned him of his "friends" and daggers in the dark. She also told him to keep his wolf close for his protection but he didn't listen. Why?

Jon knew he had enemies all around him. The Watch, the wildlings, King Stannis and his men, The RB and hers and if that's not enough - Let's add the crazy Bolton bastard to the mix. What else could he do but go forward with his plans to get as many people away and to safety as possible and die trying. Ned raised him after all. I see Jon as the type of person that has to do the right thing. He has that Stark, Honor is all, streak in him. He would rather die that dishonor himself (Thanks Ned)

Jon's not stupid, (just young and inexperienced as are Dany & Sansa & Arya, et al, all with alot of heavy stuff to deal with) he knows the biggest reason his "brothers" want him dead is because of the wildlings but he also knows that to leave them to die will also pose the biggest threat to the Realm and mankind. He can't win but he can do is duty. So he does. Even going to meet Bolton's bastard is done to spare the lives of the men of the NW, which could be seen as his duty. Jon was probably thinking that Bolton would kill him before his brother's or anyone else had time to move against him. He was wrong but he "died" doing his duty.

CPT = I think Jon will be on ice on a while then the 3 EC will heal and wake Jon as he did Bran. Jon will come out and find... what - a huge battle going on between NW and Wildlings? Ramsey flaying people? Wrights & Others coming over the Wall? Dragons? All of the above? Could be. If Jon is able to pull everyone together to fight the real enemy then he will have sacrificed himself to re-forge Lightbringer. I like that.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

Yes, I think it really "cute" that Light Bringer could be a real sword.

Heh. I'm whipsawed between the theory that Oathbreaker, [*gack! I mean Oathkeeper] reforged (fire) from Ice (self-explanatory) is Lightbringer (and that Brienne is AA, take that Mel), and the theory that the AA prophecy is just a religious myth, and Lightbringer only exists as an ideal ("I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn").

Maester Aemon believed Lightbringer was an actual sword, and the R'hllor-resurrected Beric Dondarian could set his sword ablaze with his own blood, and there is magic in this world, so that a blazing sword of heros is not out of the realm of possibility. (Actually, the Dondarian thing is interesting because it shows that swords that burn with light and heat aren't that special -- and that Mel didn't produce one). On the other hand, why is this a prophecy from Asshai when Azor Ahai presumably did all his world-saving in the North? The North has stories of heros, yes, but nothing about a thrice forged sword and a sacrifice. A "light bringer" is only mentioned in the NW vows, and it's not a sword, it's a man.

Sooooooooo . . .

[Black Crow]

The problem I've got with this whole Lightbringer business is its purpose?

Lets assume for a minute that it is a sword. Apart from burning prettily what is it actually going to do. A warrior is going to draw it and save the day, how? He (or she) is one warrior with one sword; with the best will in the world there's a limit to how many of the heathen can be slain by one hero with one sword.

Therefore if it is a sword it must have a specific purpose. If, just for the sake of argument, you accept my proposition that the Wall is actually defending the north against the followers of R'hllor, then the sword may be necessary to break the magic laced into it, just as the Horn of Jarumon is said to do. Now OK the Wall bit is controversial, but the point I'm making is that an actual sword would only be effective if it had some kind of magical purpose, yet we've not a hint of it.

It could alternatively merely be a sign "by which ye shall know" AA, but if that was so why bother, you might as well paint it on to a banner like that burning heart Mel is so keen on.

Unless it is a key to be used in a specific set of circumstances as yet unrevealed, it has to be metaphorical.

[Sister Goldenhair]

I would use a real sword (as real as magic will make it) to kill Cold Hands et al and possibly Bran who will be stronger than Cold Hands. With their demise perhaps the white walkers melt into the snow.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I would use a real sword (as real as magic will make it) to kill Cold Hands et al and possibly Bran who will be stronger than Cold Hands. With their demise perhaps the white walkers melt into the snow.

I ... what?

[Sand Snake No. 9]

It could alternatively merely be a sign "by which ye shall know" AA, but if that was so why bother, you might as well paint it on to a banner like that burning heart Mel is so keen on.

This. Certainly, the reason Mel provided Stannis with his shiny sword was to identify him as Azor Ahai. Which is kind of funny because you'd think the hero who is destined to hold back the dark and cold wouldn't get lost in a snowstorm.

[Ghost Rider]

But the thing is, Jon was not just armoured in Ice in that dream, he had a fire sword too. So if you're right, and R+L=J is also true, then Dany would be fighting the army of Ice and Fire if she's fighting Jon, not just ice. I don't recall anything in Dany's dream that indicated that she was fighting both Ice and Fire, only ice.

It could also possibly mean that Jon has to face two threats against which different sets of items are needed (the ice & the fire). Daenerys on the other hand only meets one of these items (the ice) because she represents only one of those threats.