The Official Appreciation Thread for The Queen in the North, Sansa Stark

[Woman of War]

Let me be clear on one thing - Sandor says "I should have fucked her bloody and ripped her heart out before leaving her for that dwarf."

He is not saying that he wishes he'd raped her when he had the chance. He's saying that rape and murder would have been a better fate than leaving her to marry Tyrion. Is it an AWFUL thing to say? Yes. But so often the "fucked her bloody" phrase overshadows the rest of the sentence. He ALSO says he should have ripped her heart out, and we know that he doesn't want to kill her. He's saying that marrying Tyrion is a fate worse than rape and death. Whether or not you agree with that statement...well, that's different.

If a man is willing to think violence in that manner against a woman who ( or so he believes ) has simply slept with another guy that man should be a HUGE red flag for that woman ( or girl, which Sansa still is ). Even if, and for gods sake NO, Sansa should ever decide to give Sandor a try and then sees him as error she would be dead meat. Well, she has not heard the threat herself but Sandor is exactly the guy who'd see the little bird as his personal treasure as long as she fulfills his expectations. But as soon as she might develop an identity of her own......every battered women's shelter may lodge a dozen examples.

[headtrip_honey]

If a man is willing to think violence in that manner against a woman who ( or so he believes ) has simply slept with another guy that man should be a HUGE red flag for that woman ( or girl, which Sansa still is ). Even if, and for gods sake NO, Sansa should ever decide to give Sandor a try and then sees him as error she would be dead meat. Well, she has not heard the threat herself but Sandor is exactly the guy who'd see the little bird as his personal treasure as long as she fulfills his expectations. But as soon as she might develop an identity of her own......every battered women's shelter may lodge a dozen examples.

But that's not what he's saying. He isn't wishing violence on her because she married Tyrion. He isn't wishing violence on her AT ALL. He's lamenting that he couldn't have saved her, and that he left her for a fate worse than rape and murder.

The full text is:

"And the little bird, your pretty sister, I stood there in my white cloak and let them beat her. I took the bloody song, she never gave it. I meant to take her too. I should have. I should have fucked her bloody and ripped her heart out before leaving her for that dwarf."

He's regretting that he couldn't save her. Is he saying it in awful, bloody language? Yes.

Please remember that the entire time he is delivering this speech, he is crying his eyes out.

[Woman of War]

Tyrion cried while he murdered Shae. Does this make Shae any less dead?

No, if people think that Tyrion is despiceable for his threats against Cersei - rape and murder - then why should the idea of fucking a girl bloody and ripping her heart out be less disgustingly serious? Sandor wished Sansa dead instead being with another man - that's it.

[headtrip_honey]

Tyrion cried while he murdered Shae. Does this make Shae any less dead?

No, if people think that Tyrion is despiceable for his threats against Cersei - rape and murder - then why should the idea of fucking a girl bloody and ripping her heart out be less disgustingly serious? Sandor wished Sansa dead instead being with another man - that's it.

Well I suppose you're welcome to your interpretation.

And it IS disgusting, I never said it wasn't.

Personally, had he heard that Sansa had been happily married off to, say, Willas Tyrell, I don't think he would have reacted this way. He would have been depressed, yes, but Sandor doesn't think he's good enough for Sansa, so he would never *expect* her to be with him. Thus, a marriage to another man isn't shocking.

The only reason that he reacts with the violence he does is that she's now married to a Lannister. The people who he had to watch torture her. And, y'know, everyone knows what happened to Tyrion's last wife. (he also seems to have a deep-seated hatred of Tyrion that is thus far unexplained, but fun to talk about)

Again, he is not actually wishing violence against her. All he is saying is that the absolute WORST THING that could happen to her - rape and murder, which I think we can all agree is pretty much the Worst Thing - would be better than the fate he left her to. And he is miserable that he couldn't save her.

Sandor is a violent, angry, bloody man. But the last person in the world he would hurt is Sansa. Accuse me of romanticizing him, but I honestly believe that that is true.

[1234567]

Tyrion cried while he murdered Shae. Does this make Shae any less dead?

No, if people think that Tyrion is despiceable for his threats against Cersei - rape and murder - then why should the idea of fucking a girl bloody and ripping her heart out be less disgustingly serious? Sandor wished Sansa dead instead being with another man - that's it.

Well mainly because Shae was murdered by Tyrion and Sandor did not rape or rip the heart from Sansa. Equally Tyrion wishes he could rape and kill his sister, while Sandor says that it would have been better to kill her than leave her to the machinations of Tyrion.

I think this maybe a translation issue possibly. Sandor's statement is like this example: I'd poke my eyes out with a hot poker before I give up Christmas day to do volunteer work (My mother suggested we should do this when I was a teenager and well I was being snotty about it). Anyway the point is would I have rather have a hot poker in the eye than do volunteer work? NO, blatantly not, but the statement is an exaggeration of feeling in terms of how strongly I felt against it.

NB: now as adult I do 2 days a month volunteer work, so I am not quite as odious as I was at 16! P)

[Zmeischa]

To make things clear: Sandor says that he should have raped her. That is an awful thing to say, especially to the underage sister of the girl in question, but it doesn't equal the deed, or even the intent. He... well... how do I put it mildly... says a lot of things.

And back to Sansa. Sandor, to give him his due, does his best to scare her out of her wits. The surprising thing is that she not only feels compassion for him no matter what he says, but still touches him at the moments when he scares her most, but, evidently, needs her most. I'm not saying that it is love, but it is kindness, good instincts and - yes, bravery.

[Heavy Horse]

Just to say, I love all the directions you all have taken Sansa. Made me actually want to see her better than she had.

As you can tell I'm not in the Sansa camp. I think she has been nothing but a mouse in all ASOIF. Always following along whoever might be the dominant person in her life. Her sprouts of backbone seem more of caged animal reactions than Stark qualities, (Ned, Cersi, Sandor, LF, etc...), and in some cases bratty dilusions. Joffrey doesn't count, he was just a little man trying to be big. If she is Queen of anything it may only be to a dominate male, North or Otherwise.

HOWEVER, She does seem positioned for some grand decisions. Downing LF, by death, dishounor, or just ditching him. GRRM's dedication to her POV can only lead to an eventual power move on her part. It would be sad if she was JUST A POV. Sadly I only see her loosing her sanity to the game and becoming more of a Cersi or to and extreme Lysa. The death of Lady foreshadowed her split from Stark to a less stable being. I could also see her playing the game like LF does, more of behind the scene scammer to her own ends (with justified "good intentions").

I think the best place for her is with Sandor. Although I have no faith in that ship. Sandor will loose his aggression on Quite Island and become a nicer guy, right after he takes out UnGregor. :box:

Thanks for reading.

[headtrip_honey]

Her sprouts of backbone seem more of caged animal reactions than Stark qualities

They say the caged animal is the most dangerous...

[Lemon Cake]

I was just re-reading the snow Winterfell scene, and I loved when she pelted Littlefinger in the face with the snowball and called him out on his bullshit promise to take her home. But then, I think I will always approve of anything that involves Littlefinger getting smacked in the face.

I might also add that that was definitely not the action of a frightened, caged animal. On the contrary, she was closer to feeling at peace in that moment than she'd been in a very, very long time.

[Woman of War]

Well, we obviously disagree.

It does not matter if the woman concerned has another husband or another lover: she is not in possession of the one who makes the threat. So many men don't know how it happened, they never wanted it - but suddenly the woman that is slipping through their hands lies bleeding or dead on the floor - why didn' t she behave as expected!!

And this might not only happen if Sansa chooses a younger, more educated lover over Sandor. She is his little bird. What if that girl develops into a competent player of the game, seeing Sandor as the pawn he is so far?

Simply becomes superior in capabilities, given her different intellectual background, this is bound to happen as soon as she is old enough. How do men with violent tendencies in RL answer when they feel humiliated by a more successful woman? Domestic violence, and they will always tell they never wanted it and promise never to do it again - until the next time.

Or imagine the fourteen year old Sansa develops a Mother Theresa complex, trying to save a multiple murderer, to redeem him, like the woman who falls in love with an imprisoned perpetrator, believing she is the one and only who can heal him - road to disaster, like co-alcoholism.

No, Sandor does not love and respect the person Sansa, he is infatuated with his idea of little bird. And having those ideas of utter violence about a thirteen year old child is already sick. He might or might not go through with it as soon as Sansa has developed away from him, but his feelings are sociopathic obsession, not love.

BUT Sansor as that seriously disturbed character is immensely fascinating, like e.g. Victarion or Theon/Reek. I would like to have him as a POV character in all his bitterness. Although, away from plot logic, where he should stay in the story as UnGregor 's antagonist, the man Sandor would be happiest on the Quiet Island.

Uuups, that is the Sansa thread, not Sandor's

[brashcandy]

If a man is willing to think violence in that manner against a woman who ( or so he believes ) has simply slept with another guy that man should be a HUGE red flag for that woman ( or girl, which Sansa still is ). Even if, and for gods sake NO, Sansa should ever decide to give Sandor a try and then sees him as error she would be dead meat. Well, she has not heard the threat herself but Sandor is exactly the guy who'd see the little bird as his personal treasure as long as she fulfills his expectations. But as soon as she might develop an identity of her own......every battered women's shelter may lodge a dozen examples.

Woman of War, have you read ACOK & ASOS? If you have, then I am frankly puzzled over these statements. Throughout those 2 books - in the first one with Sansa - Sandor changes remarkably. He's still the same snarky, rough man he always will be, but he genuinely seems to come to care about something (Sansa's wellbeing) besides his own misery. He was the only member of the KG that didn't hit her, and I don't think he ever would have even if Joff's command wasn't fulfilled by Dontos. He protected her and saved her on numerous occasions, and GRRM always points out that he handles her "gently" or "not ungently". How you can claim that this man would then turn around and abuse Sansa if they were together is beyond me. In ASOS we also see through his interaction with Arya that whilst he may look mean and say mean things, and is even capable of doing very awful things, he isn't the type to pick on the weak and powerless. Sandor is not the kind of man to go about indulging in evil for evil's sake. I figure that most of his wicked deeds, if not all, have taken place under Lannister employment. He doesn't go about raiding and raping women for sport, neither does he seem to take pleasure in sadistic pursuits like beating them either. You may benefit from taking a closer look at his character, and not investing so much meaning to that one statement which is belied by his actual actions in dealing with Sansa.

[Woman of War]

I simply give up.

For me this is like 13 year old schoolgirl and drug dealer, close to thirty, A CASE FOR THE POLICE AND NOT A LOVESTORY, romanticising child abuse!

[Lemon Cake]

In ASOS we also see through his interaction with Arya that whilst he may look mean and say mean things, and is even capable of doing very awful things, he isn't the type to pick on the weak and powerless.

And even Arya, who starts out loathing him with every fiber of her being, begins to suspect that he's more bark than bite. In one of her chapters in ASoS, she explicitly expresses serious doubt that he'd ever follow through on one of his threats. She's still cautious around him, because he is ~the Hound~ after all, but it's pretty clear that deep down she doesn't really believe he'd actually do what he says. The fact that this comes from Arya of all people -- angry, unforgiving, death-list-reciting Arya -- says quite a lot, I think.

[headtrip_honey]

I simply give up.

For me this is like 13 year old schoolgirl and drug dealer, close to thirty, A CASE FOR THE POLICE AND NOT A LOVESTORY, romanticising child abuse!

Excuse me? Who is romanticizing child abuse? No one.

All we are saying is that Sandor is NOT advocating raping and killing Sansa. That's it.

[Woman of War]

All we are saying is that Sandor is NOT advocating raping and killing Sansa. That's it.

but this is exactly what he does!! Old man's dirty fantasies?

I am a mother and you are hopefully older than Sansa,but how can you be so incredibly naive about abusive man-woman relationships?!

Ok, finished, good night, your parents are the ones to worry

[Alexia]

And even Arya, who starts out loathing him with every fiber of her being, begins to suspect that he's more bark than bite. In one of her chapters in ASoS, she explicitly expresses serious doubt that he'd ever follow through on one of his threats. She's still cautious around him, because he is ~the Hound~ after all, but it's pretty clear that deep down she doesn't really believe he'd actually do what he says. The fact that this comes from Arya of all people -- angry, unforgiving, death-list-reciting Arya -- says quite a lot, I think.

He threatens to beat Arya over and over again but never does, even when she tries to kill him. The first couple pages of the first Arya chapter after he kidnapped her contains one of my favorite scenes in the series. The man is far more bark than bite.

But in terms of appreciating Sansa and the end game in store for her, I'm really looking forward to the first Sansa chapter we see from TWOW. I'm expecting not only more Sandor references and more *kiss* references, but also the introduction of Brynden Tully to the Vale -- which should be quite fun and mess with LF's plans in a very big way. I'm not expecting Brynden to be very happy with the new lord of the riverlands, or with the way he's been behaving with Sansa. And LF has a few other secrets to keep from him, like murdering Lysa and his plot to get rid of Sweetrobin.

[headtrip_honey]

but this is exactly what he does!! Old man's dirty fantasies

We disagree about the interpretation. That has already been established. And no, he does not advocate raping and killing her. He is using hyperbole to express how awful he feels for not being able to save her from her fate.

Is what he says awful and vile and UGH? YES. However, as his actions have shown, and as others have pointed out, Sandor would never do those things.

Oh, and by the way, I'm more than 10 years older than Sansa and HAVE been in an abusive relationship, so I most certainly know the difference.

There is a difference between the dying, fevered lamentations of a brutal man, and a REAL threat of violence against one's person.

[brashcandy]

but this is exactly what he does!! Old man's dirty fantasies?

I am a mother and you are hopefully older than Sansa,but how can you be so incredibly naive about abusive man-woman relationships?!

Ok, finished, good night, your parents are the ones to worry

We would be naive if we were trying to deny that he abused her when he actually did! No where in the text does he do this though. No one has justified him putting a knife to her throat and scaring the living daylights out of her, but outside of that, Sandor treated her with the most dignity and kindness (his own special brand) out of everyone in KL, and that's how she remembers him.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

!!~SANSAAAAA I LOVE YOU~!!

I want you to be happy and to have puppies in your lap in a beautiful garden like you dreamed!!! BUT YOU WON'T because GRRM is a bastard.

AND YET you still have this innocence that you steadfastly protect, and refuse to become jaded. Please never become jaded. Please please keep dreaming of puppies and building snowcastles and standing up for what is right and beautiful in the world! Keep yourself pure and strong and defend against the creepers (especially Littlefinger - please keep a knife on you at all times - even the quietest wolf still has its fangs, and Sansa you will need to make this clear).

One of my absolutely favorite moments in the books is when Sansa refuses to kneel for Tyrion. She has this inner strength which no one can touch, and it comes out in ways like this. The direwolf will NOT kneel for the lion. No matter how much the lion roars.

Sansa! I hope you can retire happily to Winterfell, and reign as Lady reagent until Rickon comes of age! Rule and be happy, and find another wolf to keep you company.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

outside of that, Sandor treated her with the most dignity and kindness (his own special brand) out of everyone in KL

This is... really not true. Sandor purposefully frightens Sansa many, many times, and constantly uses his physical strength and size to intimidate her. He mocks her, talks down to her, and calls her an fool and a child and a parrot. The first encounter they have he corners her against the wall and forces her to look at his scars. I do not think you can legitimately read what Sandor Clegane actually says and does to her and call it "dignity" and "kindness", at least not as a whole. There are a few moments when he is more gentle but in general he is rough, rude, forceful, intimidating, and frightening. You could call his behavior honest, however, which to Sansa is I think quite a bit more valuable than dignity or kindness would be.

and that's how she remembers him.

I think she has eroticized their encounter, and this has caused her to reevaluate some of her feelings of terror for other... equally frightening feelings. However she remembers him, if you read her reactions at the time they are fearful, with occasional gratitude for the times when he actually is kind to her (when he wipes her lip, when he saves her from the crowd, etc).