R+L=J v.17

[Serie]

So, do I owe you a lunch?

Btw, where can you browse more house sigils than on the GRRM site?

har! no, I don't hold that against you ;)

you can find info about houses here

[corbon]

you can find info about houses here

Another option (though without the house names, which you'll have to find after) is Other-in-Law's awesome map found here. WHich is entirely worth having just for its own sake, and finding all the hidden gems, let alone the heraldry.

[FanTasy]

Another option (though without the house names, which you'll have to find after) is Other-in-Law's awesome map found here. WHich is entirely worth having just for its own sake, and finding all the hidden gems, let alone the heraldry.

Ow, thank you Corbon for this link. :cheers: I stumbled over this wonderful map a while ago but lost the link and couldn't find it again.

[Małgorzata Waschto]

Another option (though without the house names, which you'll have to find after) is Other-in-Law's awesome map found here. WHich is entirely worth having just for its own sake, and finding all the hidden gems, let alone the heraldry.

Thank you very much, the map is fantastic, I wish I could tell it to its author!!!

[kissdbyfire]

I know Aegon wouldn't be an exact replica of Rhaegar wether he is legit or not . But even if Rhaegar didn't raise him he would still have some traits of Rhaegar. My half sister never met her father but our mom always mentions stuff that she does that is exactly like he was.

That kind of thing can happen, sure, but it's not a rule; it's not something that will necessarily happen 100% of the times.

[Alia of the knife]

Oh, the princes?

I'm pretty sure he really did have it done, but I also don't think he's the comic-book villain Shakespeare portrayed him as (damn Tudor propaganda). If nothing else, guy was a genius military commander.

Thing is, they were probably doomed anyway: Henry Tudor was coming back one way or the other and I doubt he'd've let either of them live, either.

I see your point on them being a liability to anyone who sat on the throne.

And that was definitely my thinking on Harry as I figured them to be even more dangerous to his line.

There was no way those boys could live, (poor things), and agree Richards potrayal is over the top.

Same way with Vlad the Impaler. Another person whose real persona is somewhere in between myth and reality.

[GreenGirl]

I actually base my "kinslayer" theory on the vision Bran has of the girl defeating her brother in a duel as children. Lyanna was an accomplished warrior. She could handle a sword and she could tilt. The Shewolf had teeth. I believe she joined the skirmish. Nothin. I repeat nothing can truly support this. Other than to say that Lyanna was no "damsel in distress".

I actually want to run with this, and your 'not a damsel' theory... i like this.. and haven't considered it before... but (not saying Ned is a kinslayer) but what if her dying was an accident (assuming, of course, that the childbirth went fine) Ned and the 3KG have their conversation, unbeknownst to them all that they are fighting each other for the same reasons.. and Lyanna comes out of the ToJ to try and stop them, someone accidentally cuts her, and her last dying words 'promise me Ned' ... this is why Ned has issues recalling or talking about the instance... and I am in NO WAY saying that Ned made the killing blow... but perhaps he feels he has failed her by not being able to stop it, or save her, or because he went searching for her in the first place he feels as if he caused it?

Just ideas, really talking to myself... but it might make more sense this way, because I agree that Ned is FAR too honorable to be a kinslayer -- just as he is too honorable to have a baby out of wedlock.

Thoughts?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I actually want to run with this, and your 'not a damsel' theory... i like this.. and haven't considered it before... but (not saying Ned is a kinslayer) but what if her dying was an accident (assuming, of course, that the childbirth went fine) Ned and the 3KG have their conversation, unbeknownst to them all that they are fighting each other for the same reasons.. and Lyanna comes out of the ToJ to try and stop them, someone accidentally cuts her, and her last dying words 'promise me Ned' ... this is why Ned has issues recalling or talking about the instance... and I am in NO WAY saying that Ned made the killing blow... but perhaps he feels he has failed her by not being able to stop it, or save her, or because he went searching for her in the first place he feels as if he caused it?

Just ideas, really talking to myself... but it might make more sense this way, because I agree that Ned is FAR too honorable to be a kinslayer -- just as he is too honorable to have a baby out of wedlock.

Thoughts?

1. What would the "promise me" entail?

2. It's implied that "they" (i.e. Howland and Wylla, whoever else) found Ned with Lyanna's body in her chambers. Would Ned have just carried it back there?

3. Where does the fever fit into this?

Again ... Occam's Razor.

[GreenGirl]

I'm pretty sure it was at least a couple of months into the war, which fits, if it lasted about a year and Robb and Jon are supposed to be roughly the same age (officially, Robb is older than Jon, based on his conception and how it would have to fit in with Ned's alleged infidelity, but it's possible that Jon himself is actually a tad older).

Fun fact: The marriage timeline pretty much invalidates the Ned-knocked-up-a-fisherman's-daughter-at-White-Harbor theory. It's implied that Ned fathered his bastard after he'd married Catelyn; that's what caused the personal shame. But Ned went to White Harbor before he married Catelyn, relatively early in the war; he was going back up north to call the banners. So unless he fathered multiple bastards (hahaha), the White Harbor rumor is just a red herring.

Or, and this is just me thinking, what if it isn't a red herring, and this is the peice we are supposed to pick up to identify how old Jon is? (older then Robb... ) and he tells this story, because it is the easiest for him to think of, without faltering, everytime?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Or, and this is just me thinking, what if it isn't a red herring, and this is the peice we are supposed to pick up to identify how old Jon is? (older then Robb... ) and he tells this story, because it is the easiest for him to think of, without faltering, everytime?

... No.

The entire basis of Ned's "shame" is that he would have "cheated" on Catelyn after they were already married. If Ned had fathered a bastard beforehand (or he'd said he did), he could have easily just owned up to it and while Catelyn probably wouldn't have been happy, it wouldn't have had the same sting as him supposedly fathering a child after they were married.

Jon and Robb are supposed to be similar in age. Robb is "officially" older but it's possible that Jon is. This works if they were born probably up to maybe a month apart. If Jon had actually been conceived before Ned married Catelyn, he would have looked markedly older than Robb when they were young babies and the ruse wouldn't have worked.

[Dragonfish]

Or, and this is just me thinking, what if it isn't a red herring, and this is the peice we are supposed to pick up to identify how old Jon is? (older then Robb... ) and he tells this story, because it is the easiest for him to think of, without faltering, everytime?

I'm confused, are you saying that Ned made this story up, or that the story is true? Whatever the case, I don't think either scenario is likely to be true, as Ned specifically says in AGOT that he had already married Catelyn and fathered Robb by the time he conceived Jon.

[GreenGirl]

I am not saying that the story is true at all, I am just saying that maybe he when had been at White Harbor before, he had sexual ralations with a fishermans daughter there, so when it came time to make an excuse as to who/what/where he had fathered Jon, that was the story he stuck with as it was almoooost the truth... I am not saying Jon is Ned's kid, or that Ned had fathered another at any time...

The timeline of the whole thing really blows my mind, and sometime I forget that things I think make sense, don't at all.

[GreenGirl]

I'm confused, are you saying that Ned made this story up, or that the story is true? Whatever the case, I don't think either scenario is likely to be true, as Ned specifically says in AGOT that he had already married Catelyn and fathered Robb by the time he conceived Jon.

But the whole thing is a lie anyway (assuming R+L=J) so it could just be him enhancing the lie...

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I am not saying that the story is true at all, I am just saying that maybe he when had been at White Harbor before, he had sexual ralations with a fishermans daughter there, so when it came time to make an excuse as to who/what/where he had fathered Jon, that was the story he stuck with as it was almoooost the truth... I am not saying Jon is Ned's kid, or that Ned had fathered another at any time...

The timeline of the whole thing really blows my mind, and sometime I forget that things I think make sense, don't at all.

Except Ned didn't stick with the fisherman's daughter story. The "official" cover he gives is that Wylla is Jon's mother, and Wylla's a servant sworn to Starfall. The "secondary" cover (more like a rumor that was allowed to fester down south) is that Ashara is Jon's mother. Ned never makes the claim that he got Jon on a fisherman's daughter at White Harbor. More likely, it's a just a BS gossip story — we only ever hear it from the guy in White Harbor. Martin also said that Ned's the one who probably would have named Jon, and the guy says that it was the daughter who named the baby, so there's a big strike against it there.

[Dragonfish]

But the whole thing is a lie anyway (assuming R+L=J) so it could just be him enhancing the lie...

How could it be "enhancing" the lie? The two lies are diametrically opposed. One claims Jon was conceived before Ned married Catelyn, the other claims he was conceived after. They don't enhance each other, they contradict each other.

[GreenGirl]

1. What would the "promise me" entail?

2. It's implied that "they" (i.e. Howland and Wylla, whoever else) found Ned with Lyanna's body in her chambers. Would Ned have just carried it back there?

3. Where does the fever fit into this?

Again ... Occam's Razor.

1. What would the "promise me" entail?

This promise me would still entail him taking care of Jon...and guarding the secret of his life.

2. It's implied that "they" (i.e. Howland and Wylla, whoever else) found Ned with Lyanna's body in her chambers. Would Ned have just carried it back there?

I would not put it past Ned to do such a thing... but I don't know..no one but Martin does... But it could make sense (wish he talked to Jon before they made him a head shorter!!!)

3. Where does the fever fit into this?

This is me agreeing with the Crannogmen 'poison dart' theory earlier... but possible she was feverish due to the poison?

Again.. just talking out loud (havent had time to read EVERYTHING in these posts.. so bear with me while I catch up...)

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

1. What would the "promise me" entail?

This promise me would still entail him taking care of Jon...and guarding the secret of his life.

2. It's implied that "they" (i.e. Howland and Wylla, whoever else) found Ned with Lyanna's body in her chambers. Would Ned have just carried it back there?

I would not put it past Ned to do such a thing... but I don't know..no one but Martin does... But it could make sense (wish he talked to Jon before they made him a head shorter!!!)

3. Where does the fever fit into this?

This is me agreeing with the Crannogmen 'poison dart' theory earlier... but possible she was feverish due to the poison?

Again.. just talking out loud (havent had time to read EVERYTHING in these posts.. so bear with me while I catch up...)

... Yeahhhh. I still have yet to see anything that trumps my Occam's Razor idea.

[James Nicholls]

... Yeahhhh. I still have yet to see anything that trumps my Occam's Razor idea.

Pretty much agree that the R+L=J thing is the best explanation and the simplest. There are alternative explanations that fit, but none of them are as succinct as this one.

[Sevumar]

Pretty much agree that the R+L=J thing is the best explanation and the simplest. There are alternative explanations that fit, but none of them are as succinct as this one.

I also think that R+L is the best explanation with the information that we have. Didn't Martin's wife once make a comment along the lines of "you really think he'd make it something that simple?"

[Ghost714]

I also think that R+L is the best explanation with the information that we have. Didn't Martin's wife once make a comment along the lines of "you really think he'd make it something that simple?"

R+L =J is the most simple solution as a theory, in regards to all the other (false) theories out there. But that is not to say by any means that R+L =J is a simple theory in its self.. So no I don't think Mr Martin has made this whole thing simple by any way, shape or form. This theory is just more simple in comparison to all the other theories.