Heresy 4

[kissdbyfire]

Why does bronze as well as iron work? What do these metals hold in common?\

ETA Good grief, wikipedia is still on strike. By memory: bronze is copper and tin, iron is iron.

ETA2 Copper and iron are both poisonous

I remember reading somewhere that when heated, iron would retain heat whereas bronze would cool immediately. No idea if this would play any part in anything...

[Eyron]

When Bran is down with BR and Leaf talks about that deep river that flows to the center of the earth, and the caverns that the Children never fully explored and all that, I assumed that Winterfell with it's hot springs also had caverns that went down there too, and perhaps someone could voyage through that to travel that distance, but also that the weirwood roots seeped down into some underneath network structure that made all of the weirwoods basically one tree with sprouts. I forget the forests that are effectively this, but isn't there a RL example? maybe not as deep and wide as this supposition goes, but shared roots sounds familiar.

There are mycelium, where the mushrooms are the fruits to the actual organism that is underground. And some trees (eg. aspen), bushes (eg. lilac/syringa) and plants (all sorts of weeds) sprout from large rootsystems. As trees goes especially aspen is tricky to get rid of if you need to, with huge rootsystems, cutting them down doesn't suffice.

I have argued this for a while, the roots and caves are widespread in the earth of Westeros. Probably connected and accessible in the caverns underground the weirwood groves.

[kissdbyfire]

I have argued this for a while, the roots and caves are widespread in the earth of Westeros. Probably connected and accessible in the caverns underground the weirwood groves.

Yes, I agree. Including (especially?) the Isle of Faces.

[Eyron]

Yes, I agree. Including (especially?) the Isle of Faces.

Especially the Isle yes, I think it's really the centre of the whole shebang honestly. I want some POV to go there badly. I was so disappointed Arya never went there, she practically looked at it from across the water but had other business to tend to (and no boat I suppose ;)), bloody Harrenhal... Bloody Tywin. It's all his fault.

[Elaena Targaryen]

Small parties of enemies who desperately want to pass can use this passage.

And maybe a small controlled portion of 'winter' can pass.

(my emphasis)

I would hate to be stationed at the Shadow tower if this was true :)

When Eira quoted FanTansy and I read these two together it made me think of how Tormund called the WW shadows and I wondered if that is how the 'Shadow Tower' got it's name. I want to adress the small parties can pass in a minute. A reminder, this was a discussion about the Wall being a barrier and the gorge being a problem.

It seems to come back to water. Eveyone had thoughts on the gorge and the spells in the Wall, it seemed to be a problem. I checked the map and it looked like the Milkwater ran through the gorge into the Bay Of Ice, so I checked for a SSM. Sure enough it is a river gorge and it says small groups of raiders can pass. Raiders not enemies, I find the word choice interesting.

http://www.westeros....any_Questions1/

I wonder if being close to the Milkwater was a concern when Mance's host moved through going south. When I read those passages I thought it was logical to stay close to the water moving all of those people and animals, also maybe it was the best route to take such a large group. That dosen't mean that there couldn't be another, maybe more important, reason. There are connections to water; WW melt, armor and all, when slain, the COTF used a hammer of water, the Wall is ice and that is water. Also Cotter Pyke's letter from Hardhome talkes of dead things in the wood and water, no mention of WW, even though it mentions dead things in the wood. I don't know where I am going with all of this I only wanted to point out some things. All of this was discussed several pages back, boy are you guys moving fast. Also if anyone is intersested I found a SSM concerning how the Wall is so big, how long it took, and what materials were used. http://www.westeros....Entry/The_Wall/ I like the last part "more than ice went into the raising of the Wall, remember these are fantasy novels"

ETA I liked all the thoughts on the white mist like; maybe that is why the Wall is so tall, so can the white mist can't pass, and how the WW maybe can only come with the white mist. Just how do the WW think they are going to get south of the Wall and are we even sure that is what they want? It was mentioned it seemed like they hurded the different groups of people not seriously tried to kill them all.

[Eyron]

The wildling raiders are thought to be enemies by the Watch, it's been their main purpose for a long time to keep raiders from coming south, so I don't think that choice of words mean anything in this case.

The Milkwater is a strange river I think, with milky white water, so there could be something mysterious about it. We have had nothing to suggest this from the text though, but it may be that the White Walkers can't cross it for unknown reasons yet.

The contruction of the Wall is often forgotten, so it's good to bring it up, the SSM is very helpful if anyone doubts that the Wall used to be small at some point, and that for a long time. And there is magic in it, that means it must be meant as a magical defence I think. I like how GRRM stresses that it all happened so long ago that the stories are just myth at this point in time in Westeros.

No one can even say for certain if Brandon the Builder ever lived. He is as remote from the time of the novels as Noah and Gilgamesh are from our own time.

from the same SSM

[Elaena Targaryen]

I never explain myself well, sorry. I meant it could be possible that GRRM used the word raiders instead of the word enemies because only raiders can pass not WW. It's only possible, or maybe he is just messing with us again. I liked the rest of your thoughts in your post btw.

[Eyron]

I never explain myself well, sorry. I meant it could be possible that GRRM used the word raiders instead of the word enemies because only raiders can pass not WW. It's only possible, or maybe he is just messing with us again. I liked the rest of your thoughts in your post btw.

Aha, now I understand better, and I totally missed that distinction when I read it. Great catch! :) And thanks.

The choice of words there could of course mean something as you say, if he meant that only small parties of raiders can come through it... That would make sense in how the Wall is suppose to function. I hope this was a deliberate choice of words on GRRM's part!

[hotweaselsoup]

@Eira - I know that it's assumed that Bran (or Bloodraven) is warging the ravens south of the Wall, but I'm still reserving judgement on that. Mainly because the Wall has been shown to prevent warging, and it seems odd that Bran and/or Bloodraven could circumvent the wards. They can definitely greensee through the Wall, but I'm not so sure about the skinchanging. I think there may be some southerly CotF presence at work there - maybe stationed at the enigmatic Isle of Faces, even?

Re the Milkwater, or rivers in general, as potential magical barriers - I seem to recall Coldhands leading Bran, et. al. back and forth across the river a couple of times as they were making their way to the CotF cave. Meera remarks on it, she says:

"...[Coldhands] said he would take us to this three-eyed crow too. That river we crossed this morning is the same one we crossed four days ago, I swear. We're going in circles."

In light of the recent discussion, maybe it was an evasive maneuver? A way to keep the river between themselves and any potential pursuers? I don't know if this makes any sense...

[Black Crow]

I’ve just been re-reading GRRM’s the Ice Dragon. This pre-dates ASOIF by some way but there are some bits in it which are very interesting and seem relevant to the present discussion:

She was never quite sure whether it was the cold that brought the ice dragon or the ice dragon that brought the cold.

Sound familiar?

Here’s Sam: “The Others come when it is cold, most of the tales agree. Or else it gets cold when they come.”

Then back to Adara:

At the first frost each year, the ice lizards would come wriggling out of their burrows, and the fields would be overrun with the tiny blue creatures, darting this way and that, hardly seeming to touch the snow as they skimmed across it. All the children played with ice lizards. But the others were clumsy and cruel, and they would snap the fragile little animals in two, breaking them between their fingers as they might break an icicle hanging from a rook. Even Geoff, who was ever kind… held the lizards too long in his efforts to examine them, and the heat of his hands would make them melt and burn and finally die.

We haven’t heard of ice lizards in Westeros, but of course there is mention of ice spiders who being spiders can presumably “go darting this way and that, hardly seeming to touch the snow as they skimmed across it.” – and just as the White Walkers do, and then turning back to the ice dragon there’s more:

The ice dragon was a crystalline white, that shade of white that is so hard and cold that it is almost blue. It was covered with hoarfrost… Its eyes were clear and deep and icy.

The ice dragon breathed cold.

Ice formed when it breathed. Warmth fled. Fires guttered and went out, shriven by the chill. Trees froze through to their slow secret souls, and their limbs turned brittle and cracked from their own weight. Animals turned blue and whimpered and died, their eyes bulging and their skin covered over with frost.

The ice dragon breathed death into the world; death and quiet and cold.

To cut a long story short it all ends in tears or rather a battle with ordinary dragons:

…the ice dragon sent cold into the world one final time: a long smoking blue-white stream of cold that was full of snow and stillness and the end of all living things.

…there was no ice dragon to be seen. Only the huge dark corpses of the three war dragons…And a pond that had never been there before, a small quiet pool where the water was very cold.

Now this was written a long time before ASOIF and things have moved on. While I’ll admit there would be a certain degree of satisfaction if the last bit foretold the fate of Dany’s trio of Amazing Dragons, there’s no saying it will turn out that way, but while it might be unwise to read too much into the similarities in the language used to describe both the dragon and the white walkers (and there may or may not be an actual ice dragon scheduled to appear somewhere down the line) there’s no getting away from it.

Like the dragon the Walkers are death to all living things, but this story suggests it’s the cold not cruelty which kills. Like the dragon they appear to be of ice rather than living flesh; daunted by fire and quite literally melting on the application of dragonglass. Ordinary blades are ineffective because they are cold, but a fiery sword might be just as effective at melting them as Sam’s frozen fire.

I know we’ve discussed some of this before, but this description of an ice dragon by GRRM reinforces the theory that the Walkers are not just sustained by cold but created out of it, a solidifying of the chill air and mist out of which they appear and then melting or evaporating on the direct application of heat or sunlight. As such they can hardly be regarded as living creatures in their own right – but rather as avatars created by a higher form of warging without a living host. Whose avatars they are remains to be seen, but Craster’s women certainly believe that some of them are his sons returning not in the flesh but as “white shadows” or avatars.

This would also explain Old Nan's description of them as "cold things, dead things, that hated iron and fire and the touch of the sun", because if they are indeed avatars of men they aren't alive.

BTW on Eira's earlier point about the White Walkers "glimpsed" on the shore above Eastwatch, the way I interpreted the "glimpsed" bit was that they had been seen amongst the trees along the shore rather than walking on an open beach

[Black Crow]

Following on from this a further point occurs to be as to identity. We've discussed before a possible connection with the Children and we know there have been early sightings of them as well, contrarily to the legend that they sleep under the ice. But if they are avatars of men sleeping in one of those caverns under the hill they may only be able to form their avatars when its cold enough and there's enough ice in the air.

[Eyron]

@Eira - I know that it's assumed that Bran (or Bloodraven) is warging the ravens south of the Wall, but I'm still reserving judgement on that. Mainly because the Wall has been shown to prevent warging, and it seems odd that Bran and/or Bloodraven could circumvent the wards. They can definitely greensee through the Wall, but I'm not so sure about the skinchanging. I think there may be some southerly CotF presence at work there - maybe stationed at the enigmatic Isle of Faces, even?

I think it has to do with the weirwood roots, they go under the wall and I don't think their magic is prevented by it, else the black gate would not work I think. When you are a greenseer you are directly linked to the trees and can probably use them to channel anywhere and warg over distance. Jon is not connected to the trees, only Ghost, and Ghost to his siblings. I think that is the difference.

I like the idea of someone south of the Wall being able to skinchange but I have to say I find it more unlikely.

Re the Milkwater, or rivers in general, as potential magical barriers - I seem to recall Coldhands leading Bran, et. al. back and forth across the river a couple of times as they were making their way to the CotF cave. Meera remarks on it, she says:

"...[Coldhands] said he would take us to this three-eyed crow too. That river we crossed this morning is the same one we crossed four days ago, I swear. We're going in circles."

In light of the recent discussion, maybe it was an evasive maneuver? A way to keep the river between themselves and any potential pursuers? I don't know if this makes any sense...

Good thinking! I have wondered about that too, I could not see why they did that. They could be going along the river but crossing it in a zigzag pattern? I wonder where that cave is.

[Eyron]

Following on from this a further point occurs to be as to identity. We've discussed before a possible connection with the Children and we know there have been early sightings of them as well, contrarily to the legend that they sleep under the ice. But if they are avatars of men sleeping in one of those caverns under the hill they may only be able to form their avatars when its cold enough and there's enough ice in the air.

RE: this post and the previous one

I think the ice dragon story tells us that the creatures of ice are not just avatars, the ice lizzards were creatures that lived in cold, made of ice sure but not avatars. Adara was a living person even though cold and blue eyed, and the ice dragon seemed like a real creature too, not just an avatar created from ice by someone else, like a vehicle. GRRM could of course change his mind and the ice creatures in ASoIaF may be totally different and I don't think we can draw any conclusions from it either way, but that the white walkers are avatars drawn from this story seems a bit of a stretch in my opinion.

I agree with the cold being the danger, that is what the essence of Jon and Tormunds talk was in the chapter when the free folk came through the Wall. The cold that makes you unable to breathe.

I think you could be right about the white walkers being seen near the shore, not on it. That would make things less complicated, and relieve us from yet another undead race...

[RevengeOfTheStarks]

When Bran is down with BR and Leaf talks about that deep river that flows to the center of the earth, and the caverns that the Children never fully explored and all that, I assumed that Winterfell with it's hot springs also had caverns that went down there too, and perhaps someone could voyage through that to travel that distance, but also that the weirwood roots seeped down into some underneath network structure that made all of the weirwoods basically one tree with sprouts. I forget the forests that are effectively this, but isn't there a RL example? maybe not as deep and wide as this supposition goes, but shared roots sounds familiar.

Especially the Isle yes, I think it's really the centre of the whole shebang honestly. I want some POV to go there badly. I was so disappointed Arya never went there, she practically looked at it from across the water but had other business to tend to (and no boat I suppose ;)), bloody Harrenhal... Bloody Tywin. It's all his fault.

It seems apparent at this point that the weirwoods do form some sort of spiritual network of stored ancestral information....we all keep calling it the weirnet, so it's not too much of a stretch to think there could be a physical network too. I had this idea for a while that the reason Bran and BR (and other powerful greenseers using weirnet) can warg and see past the wall, is because of the trees themselves, and the fact that there's the Isle of Faces way south of the wall as a center for that magic.

I definitely think those tunnels and springs under the Children's caves lead to Winterfell, and it would be cool if went further, even to the God's eye.

I hate to be that person who's always referencing random things that have nothing to do with asoiaf, but doesn't the weirnet remind you guys of the tree-net from the movie Avatar? You know, the one where the blue nature-loving people can directly hook into it and access the memories of their ancestors? That tree-net is also one giant organism. Sounds oddly familiar doesn't it?

[kissdbyfire]

I hate to be that person who's always referencing random things that have nothing to do with asoiaf, but doesn't the weirnet remind you guys of the tree-net from the movie Avatar? You know, the one where the blue nature-loving people can directly hook into it and access the memories of their ancestors? That tree-net is also one giant organism. Sounds oddly familiar doesn't it?

Yeah, I said the same thing back in Heresy I, I think. The weirnet did make me think of Avatar, and it was a thought I didn't like much because I really disliked that movie. But the similarities are there, there's no avoiding it.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

RE: this post and the previous one I think the ice dragon story tells us that the creatures of ice are not just avatars, the ice lizzards were creatures that lived in cold, made of ice sure but not avatars. Adara was a living person even though cold and blue eyed, and the ice dragon seemed like a real creature too, not just an avatar created from ice by someone else, like a vehicle. GRRM could of course change his mind and the ice creatures in ASoIaF may be totally different and I don't think we can draw any conclusions from it either way, but that the white walkers are avatars drawn from this story seems a bit of a stretch in my opinion.

:agree:

The WW have always seemed like living beings to me, but somehow profoundly altered. They use language. They show emotion. When they die, we see they have blood and a human skeleton, though altered like the rest of their bodies. But GRRM doesn't want us to know yet, and he's good at his job.

[Zacker]

I meant the branches in the third layer of the funeral pyre, that was woven. Sorry for being confusing. I have thought about it some more and I think that is the most sensible explanation.

The text again, quoting from FanTasy above:

What else is there that could be "them"?

Branches. Yes I understood, just sloppy writing from me. I apologize. Anyway I checked the chapter because calling west to east ice to fire sounds plain wrong. On the previous page they described another level laying 'whatever' from east to west, from sunrise to sunset. So ice is north and fire is south. As it should, me thinks.

PS. You people post to fast for me. Three more pages in one topic in one day?

[kissdbyfire]

Branches. Yes I understood, just sloppy writing from me. I apologize. Anyway I checked the chapter because calling west to east ice to fire sounds plain wrong. On the previous page they described another level laying 'whatever' from east to west, from sunrise to sunset. So ice is north and fire is south. As it should, me thinks.

Is it possible there's some connection as in sunrise (fire) to sunset (ice)? I have no idea, really. Didn't pay much attention to any of that as is often the case with Dany's chapters. :dunno:

[Zacker]

Is it possible there's some connection as in sunrise (fire) to sunset (ice)? I have no idea, really. Didn't pay much attention to any of that as is often the case with Dany's chapters. :dunno:

Nah, not the almost identical way both sentences were structured. One ended "[...] east to west, from sunrise to sunset". The other one "[...] north to south, from ice to fire, [...]". It was quite clear.

Disclaimer: I don't have my book here now.

edit: "ice to fire"

[Elaena Targaryen]

Following on from this a further point occurs to be as to identity. We've discussed before a possible connection with the Children and we know there have been early sightings of them as well, contrarily to the legend that they sleep under the ice. But if they are avatars of men sleeping in one of those caverns under the hill they may only be able to form their avatars when its cold enough and there's enough ice in the air.

I'm not sure how I feel about all of this either. But when I read some thoughts similar to this in an earlier thread (I don't remember which one) it made think of a few things, maybe because I read all of it together? or it may have been discussed together? Anyway their were thoughts about the 'wood dancers' description being very similar to the description of the 'white wlakers', then about the children in the cave that Bran sees. I think, all the children that he saw in that room, maybe connected to trees, Bran called them 'singers' Some of you may have called the WW 'ice dancers' like the 'wood dancers' and if they are 'singers' who are they singing to? Probably the earth, but I don't think we have seen any wood dancers yet so where are they? I always wondered, after reading that discussion, if they sing to the ice dancers, but it may be a crazy random thought also.