The Gravedigging Hound - Complete analysis

[Margaret Ballinger]

Just throwing another piece of the puzzle out there:

The crow flying from tree to tree when Sandor was "dying" ("river" suggesting Brynden Rivers):

Thank you!. I have a doc file on the suject that I keep sticking book quotes into. Anything I come across that strke me odd or a possible clue, you know it just has a weird 'vibe' to it but I don't know why. - I will add this one too. Crow + River and a tree too - I didn't catch that. I am open to hearing all theories, but I like to collect evidence to back them up. I'm a genealogist by hobby (hopefully by trade someday), having all the facts and a timeline of events (having all your ducks in a row, so to speak) plays a big part in forming a story about an individual. I just know that Sandor could not have lived 6 days after Arya left him. He was found before that.

Besides that saying that Brynden has 'a thousand eyes and one' there is also stories that he was a one eyed dog, and he could also take out his enemies with wolves. I won't belittle his character by saying he does not have the ability to be the crow, in order to keep an eye on Bran's sister. Or that he was watching from Dog, who acts similar to Mormont's raven. I just have no evidence to back this up, just a weird 'vibe.'

But I do have a strong feeling about the Elder Brother being more than he appears. I wonder why he urged Brienne to give up her quest. Brienne clearly put off the impression that she wasn't going to harm Sansa and her intentions were honorable. So I wonder why he urged Brienne to give up her quest since she only wanted to help save Sansa's life? He went into telling her about her lonely her father was, how he would mourn her the rest of his days, all he would have to hold of his daughter was her shattered shield. How much he loved her, how much he missed her and would want her to come home, that she should be grateful she has a home and father to love.....Gosh! He was laying on the guilt trip pretty thick wasn't he? Got her to break down in tears too.

I love Brienne but she is well, naive. He is only one of a few that knows the 'Arya' in Winterfell is false. He has been up the Trident, a day's ride away from the Crossroads Inn, perhaps further, he knows where Arya had intended to go, the Vale, and he for some reason he knows for that Arya and Sansa are not along the Trident. I wonder that if, just if, the Elder Brother was also in the Brotherhood, maybe he was trying to discourge Brienne away for a purpose other than her safety? Better to keep her away for some reason? I don't know. I just have a weird feeling about Elder Brother.

[Sans A Stark in Winterfell]

Just throwing another piece of the puzzle out there:

The crow flying from tree to tree when Sandor was "dying" ("river" suggesting Brynden Rivers):

Couldn't it be Bran also?

[Sans A Stark in Winterfell]

Thank you!. I have a doc file on the suject that I keep sticking book quotes into. Anything I come across that strke me odd or a possible clue, you know it just has a weird 'vibe' to it but I don't know why. - I will add this one too. Crow + River and a tree too - I didn't catch that. I am open to hearing all theories, but I like to collect evidence to back them up. I'm a genealogist by hobby (hopefully by trade someday), having all the facts and a timeline of events (having all your ducks in a row, so to speak) plays a big part in forming a story about an individual. I just know that Sandor could not have lived 6 days after Arya left him. He was found before that.

Besides that saying that Brynden has 'a thousand eyes and one' there is also stories that he was a one eyed dog, and he could also take out his enemies with wolves. I won't belittle his character by saying he does not have the ability to be the crow, in order to keep an eye on Bran's sister. Or that he was watching from Dog, who acts similar to Mormont's raven. I just have no evidence to back this up, just a weird 'vibe.'

But I do have a strong feeling about the Elder Brother being more than he appears. I wonder why he urged Brienne to give up her quest. Brienne clearly put off the impression that she wasn't going to harm Sansa and her intentions were honorable. So I wonder why he urged Brienne to give up her quest since she only wanted to help save Sansa's life? He went into telling her about her lonely her father was, how he would mourn her the rest of his days, all he would have to hold of his daughter was her shattered shield. How much he loved her, how much he missed her and would want her to come home, that she should be grateful she has a home and father to love.....Gosh! He was laying on the guilt trip pretty thick wasn't he? Got her to break down in tears too.

I love Brienne but she is well, naive. He is only one of a few that knows the 'Arya' in Winterfell is false. He has been up the Trident, a day's ride away from the Crossroads Inn, perhaps further, he knows where Arya had intended to go, the Vale, and he for some reason he knows for that Arya and Sansa are not along the Trident. I wonder that if, just if, the Elder Brother was also in the Brotherhood, maybe he was trying to discourge Brienne away for a purpose other than her safety? Better to keep her away for some reason? I don't know. I just have a weird feeling about Elder Brother.

Maybe for the same reason he rescued Sandor, he wants to keep them out of the game of thrones. Think about it, on the quiet isle not much happens, they're out of reach, iirc, from the madness. He probably just wants her to go back home and enjoy her life, peacefully.

[ache]

But I do have a strong feeling about the Elder Brother being more than he appears. I wonder why he urged Brienne to give up her quest. Brienne clearly put off the impression that she wasn't going to harm Sansa and her intentions were honorable. So I wonder why he urged Brienne to give up her quest since she only wanted to help save Sansa's life? He went into telling her about her lonely her father was, how he would mourn her the rest of his days, all he would have to hold of his daughter was her shattered shield. How much he loved her, how much he missed her and would want her to come home, that she should be grateful she has a home and father to love.....Gosh! He was laying on the guilt trip pretty thick wasn't he? Got her to break down in tears too.

I love Brienne but she is well, naive. He is only one of a few that knows the 'Arya' in Winterfell is false. He has been up the Trident, a day's ride away from the Crossroads Inn, perhaps further, he knows where Arya had intended to go, the Vale, and he for some reason he knows for that Arya and Sansa are not along the Trident. I wonder that if, just if, the Elder Brother was also in the Brotherhood, maybe he was trying to discourge Brienne away for a purpose other than her safety? Better to keep her away for some reason? I don't know. I just have a weird feeling about Elder Brother.

Yeah, all this. What Elder Brother was saying to Brienne would make sense if she was on a quest for glory or gold or gain but she's on a mission to rescue a defenceless girl. His urging to go home is really inappropriate in the circumstances. What kind of holy man tells someone "oh, bugger the kid and your honour, you should only care about yourself and your dad". I think Elder Brother is trying to dissuade Brienne because either himself or someone else is already working towards finding the girls.

[Margaret Ballinger]

Here is a excellent post on Elder Brother!

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/97271-from-pawn-to-player-rethinking-sansa-xxi/page-4#entry5075017

I am still studying it, but I already noticed some great points that I missed (I need to go back and re-read Feast again). I only had suspcision before, now I know Elder Brother is up to something.

Here is a couple of excerpts from the post I linked to.

So we know that Shadrich has succeeded where Brienne has not, and managed to find himself in the same location of Sansa Stark, even though there’s no indication that he has recognized Alayne Stone as the missing girl he seeks at this point in time. For readers, the Mad Mouse is meant to stand out for the risk he presents to Sansa’s security and Littlefinger’s carefully laid plans. But has Martin pulled one over on us? Has he secreted another interloper in this group who’s also interested in finding Sansa Stark? This is the crux of our crackpot. Let’s look again at the descriptions of the men:

She hugged him dutifully and kissed him on the cheek. “I am sorry to intrude, Father. No one told me you had company.”

“You are never an intrusion, sweetling. I was just now telling these good knights what a dutiful daughter I had.”

“Dutiful and beautiful,” said an elegant young knight whose thick blond mane cascaded down well past his shoulders.

“Aye,” said the second knight, a burly fellow with a thick salt-and-pepper beard, a red nose bulbous with broken veins, and gnarled hands as large as hams. “You left out that part, m’lord.”

“I would do the same if she were my daughter,” said the last knight, a short, wiry man with a wry smile, pointed nose, and bristly orange hair. “Particularly around louts like us.”

Alayne laughed. “Are you louts?” she said, teasing. “Why, I took the three of you for gallant knights.”

There is someone else who matches the description, though. Someone who knows of Sansa Stark and that she’s missing:

The Elder Brother was not what Brienne had expected. He could hardly be called elder, for a start; whereas the brothers weeding in the garden had had the stooped shoulders and bent backs of old men, he stood straight and tall, and moved with the vigor of a man in the prime of his years. Nor did he have the gentle, kindly face she expected of a healer. His head was large and square, his eyes shrewd, his nose veined and red. Though he wore a tonsure, his scalp was as stubbly as his heavy jaw.

He looks more like a man made to break bones than to heal one, thought the Maid of Tarth, as the Elder Brother strode across the room to embrace Septon Meribald and pat Dog.

There are a few coincidences to highlight:

• Like Ser Morgarth, the Elder Brother has a veiny red nose.
  
• Brienne notes that the Elder Brother looks as though he would break bones, not heal them, which could accord with the "hands as large as hams" of Morgarth.
  
• The Elder Brother may be an older man, but he’s a former knight and still fit and capable enough to impress Brienne—a warrior herself. He would have no problem convincing Littlefinger to hire him for protection, and Morgarth is described as “burly.”
  
• At the time of Brienne’s visit, the Elder Brother’s jaw has stubble on it. Is this the beginning of the thick beard we see later on?
  

During their conversation, the Elder Brother reveals knowledge of Sansa once Brienne tells him the standard description she’s been repeating along her quest. His quick confirmation would indicate prior familiarity with Sansa’s appearance, which we can assume came from Sandor Clegane, who is being sheltered on the island, unbeknownst to Brienne. He tells her that the Hound died on the banks of the Trident, a tortured man who gave and received no love, but only lived to kill his brother. His advice for the Maid of Tarth is to go home and reunite with her father. But Brienne stubbornly insists that she cannot do so, she has sworn an oath and must keep it:

“I have to find her,” she finished. “There are others looking, all wanting to capture her and sell her to the queen. I have to find her first. I promised Jaime. Oathkeeper, he named the sword. I have to try to save her . . . or die in the attempt.”

This is apparently the last we see of the Elder Brother, and Brienne moves on to the Crossroads Inn, to kill “the Hound,” and her eventual meeting with Lady Stoneheart. But just why would the Elder Brother leave the peaceful enclave of the QI and travel to the Vale? Resuming his old occupation is no problem as Brienne tells him “you look more like a knight than you do a holy man,” yet that life was aimless and unfulfilling, fighting on Rhaegar's side of the war only by chance, and so desperate to regain a horse that he kept on fighting even whilst injured. All of this changes when he washes up on the QI, born again into the Faith of the Seven. It doesn’t sound like a man who would willingly get back into the political arena, but this appears to be his intention:

“The riverlands are still too dangerous. Vargo Hoat’s scum remain abroad, and Beric Dondarrion has been hanging Freys. Is it true that Sandor Clegane has joined him?”

How does he know that? “Some say. Reports are confused.” The bird had come last night, from a septry on an island hard by the mouth of the Trident. The nearby town of Saltpans had been savagely raided by a band of outlaws, and some of the survivors claimed a roaring brute in a hound’s head helm was amongst the raiders. Supposedly he’d killed a dozen men and raped a girl of twelve."

Why would the Elder Brother choose to send a report to the Crown of all people about the events of Saltpans, and which mentions a roaring brute in a hound's helm? This is like a papal Nuncio reporting to the Pentagon instead of the Vatican, so why did the Elder Brother not report to his superiors instead, to the High Sparrow? Why to Cersei, the former boss of the Hound? This is strange, as the Elder Brother knows that the Crown wants Sandor’s head, and sending this information is basically an official attempt to “clear his name.” These words to Brienne after he talks about Saltpans and before he discloses that he “buried the Hound” are also telling about the purpose of writing to the Crown:

“Wolves are nobler than that . . . and so are dogs, I think.”

Whatever the Elder Brother is involved in or planning, it likely has to do with Sandor Clegane as well. It may explain why he tries so hard to convince Brienne that the Hound is dead and to give up her quest. We have not overlooked the possibility that the Elder Brother could be invested in finding Sansa Stark, and Brienne’s final words are a poignant outpouring of emotion in support of finding the girl and protecting her from the captors in the capital. However, we think his efforts have more to do with clearing Sandor’s name because he needs him for his still undisclosed plans and infiltrating the Vale’s political workings as Littlefinger is the Lord Paramount of the Riverlands. That he was already prepared for this mission before Brienne’s arrival can be surmised by the growth of hair on his head and jaw despite wearing a tonsure. And he might have made Brother Narbert privy to some of these plans, as the proctor has given at least two indications that he may know the true identity of the Gravedigger:

“Lady Brienne is a warrior maid,” confided Septon Meribald, “hunting for the Hound.”

“Aye?” Narbert seemed taken aback. “To what end?”

Brienne touched Oathkeeper’s hilt. “His,” she said.

The proctor studied her. “You are . . . brawny for a woman, it is true, but . . . mayhaps I should take you up to Elder Brother. He will have seen you crossing the mud. Come.”

He is “taken aback” when Meribald tells him she’s looking for the Hound, and when she tells him she wants to kill him, he assesses her critically, as if he’d seen the Hound face to face and knew his size and his prowess not just by reputation. Then, talking of Saltpans, he describes the (real) Hound as “brutal,” which he might know by fame only, but then he closes his speech with “some wounds do not show.” This would hint that Narbert helped Elder Brother with Sandor, because no matter how strong the latter is, Sandor is extremely big and heavy, and he’d have needed some assistance whilst nursing him back to health, but due to the perils of hiding a wanted fugitive, he could only trust, to an extent at least, his proctor. That line fits so well

with Sandor that makes one wonder if the Proctor knows some of the things he confessed to the Elder Brother.

The Timeline also fits, as according to two timeline sources, there’s an average of approximately 3 weeks to one month between the time of Brienne’s arrival at the Quiet Isle and Sansa’s meeting with the knights. Plus, based on the close proximity of the QI to the Vale, this would have been enough time for the Elder Brother to reach the Gates of the Moon.

Finally, the statements by the knights upon seeing Sansa may also hold clues for analysis. Ser Byron is the first to respond, and his words indicate an immediate attraction to Sansa, based on her looks. He later kisses her hand, making his affection clear. But it’s the two with hidden agendas whose statements are most provocative:

“Aye,” said the second knight, a burly fellow with a thick salt-and-pepper beard, a red nose bulbous with broken veins,

and gnarled hands as large as hams. “You left out that part, m’lord.”

“I would do the same if she were my daughter,” said the last knight, a short, wiry man with a wry smile, pointed nose,

and bristly orange hair. “Particularly around louts like us.”

Ser Morgarth’s words are an implicit challenge almost, a sly suggestion that Littlefinger has not been upfront about the true nature of this beautiful daughter. The Mad Mouse on the other hand pretends to support such an evasion, citing their loutish behaviour as the reason. It’s all meant to be light-hearted and good-natured teasing, but everyone in the room is playing a game and a part. Have Ser Morgarth’s suspicions been raised? If he truly is the Elder Brother then he knows the exact appearance of Sansa Stark, and more significantly, if he’s been privy to remembrances by Sandor Clegane, he also knows more personal qualities that Sansa might not think to conceal.

Again, this is an excerpt from the post I linked to above.

[LongRider]

I read that crackpot, and do not find it convincing.

[LongRider]

Margaret said "It doesn’t sound like a man who would willingly get back into the political arena, but this appears to be his intention:

“The riverlands are still too dangerous. Vargo Hoat’s scum remain abroad, and Beric Dondarrion has been hanging Freys. Is it true that Sandor Clegane has joined him?”

How does he know that? “Some say. Reports are confused.” The bird had come last night, from a septry on an island hard by the mouth of the Trident. The nearby town of Saltpans had been savagely raided by a band of outlaws, and some of the survivors claimed a roaring brute in a hound’s head helm was amongst the raiders. Supposedly he’d killed a dozen men and raped a girl of twelve."

Why would the Elder Brother choose to send a report to the Crown of all people about the events of Saltpans, and which mentions a roaring brute in a hound's helm? This is like a papal Nuncio reporting to the Pentagon instead of the Vatican, so why did the Elder Brother not report to his superiors instead, to the High Sparrow? Why to Cersei, the former boss of the Hound? This is strange, as the Elder Brother knows that the Crown wants Sandor’s head, and sending this information is basically an official attempt to “clear his name.” ************************************************************************

I fail to see how this report would clear Sandor's name, as it does the opposite.

I also find the description of Ser Morgarth to be quite generic; ie; it describes many middle aged men.

[Margaret Ballinger]

I was qouting someone else's post that I linked to.

But the report came from the Quiet Isle. Why would Elder Brother do that? To me it was to turn attention away from the real Sandor. The real Hound is dead, this is another man doing this. He has to be caught so everyone would see that it wasn't him, thus clearing his name. Also, anyone that came sniffing after the Hound would be drawn away from the Quiet Isle, since he was the one that complained first about what the Hound had done, it's unlikely anyone would think to look there.

But also, to send a report to the Queen, the Hound's former master, instead of the Lord Tarly who is controlling that area might also mean something else. Lord Tarly has been trying to convince the smallfolk that the Hound rides with the Brotherhood. But if the Queen send out men to deal with the Hound they will discover that is is not Sandor, and that also the Brotherhood was not involved. If Lord Tarly took down "Hound #2" and his men, he wouldn't be so honest and would probably declare that it was all the Brotherhood's doing.

There is just something strange about the Elder Brother. I am working out a timeline based on quotes from the book that I hope to post later. I realized that I was enjoying reading the books too much and wasn't really paying attention for clues.

But please allow me to point out a few quotes that I noticed.

“The Hound?”

The priest pursed his lips. “The Hound is dead and buried.”

“I saw him. In the woods.”

“A fever dream, my lady.”

“He said that he would hang me.”. . .

Pursed his lips? And how would he know that he was 'buried'? Has he talked to Elder Brother? He was informed of Rorge, however they wouldn't have buried him. They are in the habit of displaying the men they kill, as an example for other bandits that prey on the innocent smallfolk, and to bury one as bad as Rorge along with his seven men break with their usual custom. They mentioned they have been hunting that group for so long, so to me it's doubtful they would give them a proper burial.

. . . I know this man, Brienne thought. “You are the Hound.”

He grinned. His teeth were awful; crooked, and streaked brown with rot. “I suppose I am. Seeing as how m’lady went and killed the last one.” He turned his head and spat.

She remembered lightning flashing, the mud beneath her feet. “It was Rorge I killed. He took the helm from Clegane’s grave, and you stole it off his corpse.”

“I didn’t hear him objecting.”

Thoros sucked in his breath in dismay. “Is this true? A dead man’s helm? Have we fallen that low?”

The big man scowled at him. “It’s good steel.”

“There is nothing good about that helm, nor the men who wore it,” said the red priest. “Sandor Clegane was a man in torment, and Rorge a beast in human skin.”

“I’m not them.”

“Then why show the world their face? Savage, snarling, twisted . . . is that who you would be, Lem?”

“The sight of it will make my foes afraid.”

“The sight of it makes me afraid.”

Thoros seemed shocked that Lem took the helm. Lem was an idiot. The Hound was a wanted man and by riding around in the Hound's helm just put an even bigger target on them. Also if they left it with the body it would have cleared Sandor's name who is "dead and buried." Also he mentions Sandor as being "a man in torment" which is an echo of what Elder Brother told Brienne: "If even half of what we heard was true, this was a bitter, tormented soul, a sinner who mocked both gods and men."

I know it's pretty thin, but taken with other clues I have been running across makes it seem that Elder Brother at least exchanging information with the Brotherhood. And for him to mention in a report that it was the Hound doing this, hoping the Queen, since it was her former dog, would deal with it and upon confronting and killing them they would discover that the group led by the Hound were Mummers, not Sandor nor the Brotherhood. Elder Brother wasn't appealing to Lord Tarly because he didn't care who the Hound was, he just wanted to frame the Brotherhood for it. By pleading to him would give him more of an excuse to hunt down Beric's men. Which is why Thoros was in dismay about Lem claiming the Hound's helm.

I am still working on a timeline, but:

• Arya left the Hound about a day's ride away from the Crossroads Inn, and continued on to the Saltpans.
  
• Arya thought that the Hound was too weak to hold a sword and also thought that when the sun went down the wolves would smell the blood on him. He wouldn't last long.
  
• Elder Brother found the Hound, and buried him. Probably later the same day.
  
• Earlier Timeon told Brienne that in Rorge's attempt to flee he came by the Crossroads Inn and forced the innkeep to tell him that it was the Hound had killed Polliver & Tickler and had the Stark girl. I wonder if when he rode by they were still cleaning up the mess and bodies. Otherwise he wouldn't have asked who killed them. He then killed the innkeep.
  
• Rorge rode on, found the Hound's grave and stole the helm from it.
  
• They were riding hard because they were trying to find a ship to escape, Lord Beric had been chasing them a long time through the Riverlands.
  
• They came upon the Saltpans, when there was no ship in dock, they sacked the town and rode off.
  
• People waited until the fires went down before returning to bury their dead, they took the wounded to Quiet Isle for treatment.
  
• Then, on the 6th day after Arya left the Hound she arrived at the Saltpans, and mostly everything was burnt. She was walking her horse and staying near the river, not riding hard like Rorge's group. They probably rode a distance from the river and roads, and stayed to the trees for cover.
  

So all that happened in just six days.

Why was Elder Brother very near the Inn of the Crossroads? After the Hound was 'dead and buried' the Elder Brother took Sandor back to the Quiet Isle. I'm not sure how fast he would be able to travel with a badly wounded Sandor and a mean horse. But he was able to get there in time to treat the wounded from the Saltpans raid. Yet he told Septon Meribald that there was a new inkeep and it was now a place for orphans. How would he know that so soon? Also Gendy was stationed at that Inn and the Brotherhood was in the woods, protecting it.

When Brienne got to the Quiet Isle the Gravedigger was hard at work digging a grave for a brother that died from his wounds from the raid. How long can one linger from wounds before dying? A week or two? When Brienne ferried over the next day she said the air still smelled of smoke. So surely not more than a month had passed by between the bar fight to when Brienne set foot on Quiet Isle.

Elder Brother just seems to be well informed for someone who stays on a secluded island. And with the information the Hound and Brienne have provided, I think there is something in the works. Why else did he try so hard to convince Brienne to give up her quest, which was to save Sansa's life. Also he convinced her not to look in the Riverlands, that she wasn't there - How would he know that? The only ones that have been combing the Riverlands were the Brotherhood, looking for Arya and the Hound after the Red Wedding. When Brienne met him he wore a tonsure, but was letting it grow in as well as a beard. How long does that take? If he stopped shaving after he found the Hound and was told that he had the 'real' Arya and she was now heading towards her family in the Vale....

I don't know, but something doesn't smell right with Elder Brother. The only family she has is in the Riverrun and the Eyrie. If the Brotherhood has one spying there, it would make sense that they would send one to infiltrate the Eyrie as well.

[LongRider]

The Saltpans was not burnt when Arya arrived, she was ahead of the Mummers.

[LongRider]

As for this quote " “There is nothing good about that helm, nor the men who wore it,” said the red priest. “Sandor Clegane was a man in torment, and Rorge a beast in human skin.”

Lets not forget, the BWB captured SC, put him on trial, he then fought and bested Lord Beric in trial by combat. They treated him for his burns, took his gold and released him. SC found the BWB again and tried to get his gold back. So Thoros had plenty of recent interaction with SC to make his evaluation of him.

Brienne mentions the helm came from the Hounds grave. The BWB may or may not have contact with EB, but info that the Hound is dead comes from Brienne.

[Margaret Ballinger]

I thought so too until I re-read it just yesterday. That makes about the 4th time I have read that chapter (Arya's my favorite). Also while I was checking out the map on the Saltpan's page on the Wiki site, it mentions what Arya sees upon first arriving there and has a hyperlink to the Sack of the Saltpans page. Even with that it took a while for me to get it. That she must have gotten there after.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Saltpans

Here is the excerpt:

A small castle dominated the town; no more than a holdfast, really, a single tall square keep with a bailey and a curtain wall. Most of the shops and inns and alehouses around the harbor had been plundered or burned, though some looked still inhabited. But the port was there, and eastward spread the Bay of Crabs, its waters shimmering blue and green in the sun.

And there were ships. . .

. . . Arya rode Craven down to the docks to get a better look. Strangers are not so strange in a port as they are in little villages, and no one seemed to care who she was or why she was here. . .

. . . The stable had been burnt, she learned from a boy by the docks, but the woman who’d owned it was still trading behind the sept. . .

. . . The purple galley was still there. If the ship had sailed while she was being robbed, that would have been too much to bear. A cask of mead was being rolled up the plank when she arrived. When she tried to follow, a sailor up on deck shouted down at her in a tongue she did not know. . .

Also it was not a large port, and I believe Elder Brother mentions that ships go there from time to time, so it doesn't appear that it was very active. They probably would have noticed her, normally. The "cask of mead"...it was later revealed that Brother Clement was over at the Saltpans selling their renowned mead when the raid happened. The raiders burnt the alehouses, shops and inn as they past through town, but there was still mead that wasn't being stored in the alehouses, inn, etc. or it would have gotten burnt as well. It was probably on a wagon. Back in the day you didn't know exactly when the ship would come in, so Brother Clement might have gotten there a few days ahead of time and was waiting for the ship when the raiders came? It just doesn't make sense that they were able to load mead when the most of the town was burnt, unless the mead wasn't in the buildings and was still on a wagon.

As for Brienne telling Thoros about the Hound's helm being stolen off the grave, that came several pages later. When he told her the Hound was dead and buried he still introducing himself to her as she was waking up and was wondering why she was in a cave:

He looked down at his ragged robes, and smiled ruefully. “The pink pretender, rather. I am Thoros, late of Myr, aye . . . a bad priest and a worse wizard.”

“You ride with the Dondarrion. The lightning lord.”

“Lightning comes and goes and then is seen no more. So too with men. Lord Beric’s fire has gone out of this world, I fear. A grimmer shadow leads us in his place.”

“The Hound?”

The priest pursed his lips. “The Hound is dead and buried.”

“I saw him. In the woods.”

“A fever dream, my lady.”

“He said that he would hang me.”

So he didn't know that helm was stolen off a grave until after this. The "Hound" came into the cave and she recognized him by his yellow cloak and told him that he stole the helm that was stolen off Clegane's grave.

[Whitering]

Ya the timeline is a little confused because of the overlap of chapters and whatnot. I used to think that Arya got there, took the last ship out of Westeros and the Mummers arrived maybe even later that day. Now, I believe that Arya arrived maybe 2 days after the raid. Arya should have called the horseseller on her bluff because there is no way the Lord is even opening his gate, much less doing anything nasty to an 11 or 12 year old girl after the raid.

As many times as I've read that chapter I never linked the info from Feast, so thanks a lot for that.

[Margaret Ballinger]

You're welcome. I've been working out a timeline because of Elder Brother, he is curious to me, and he has a previous history of being a knight that is interesting. He said that Rhaegar didn't know his name, and he can not say why. That got my interest going - why in the world would Rhaegar know his name? He was just one knight among thousands that fought that day. And why was he near the Inn of the Crossroads? Why does he seem to know so much? He knew who moved into the Inn of the Crossroads. He knew that Arya wasn't in the Riverlands and he tried to convince Brienne to give up her quest which to me is wrong. Sansa's life was in danger and Brienne's intentions were honorable. So to me, for a man of the gods to tell her to forget the rescue mission and let some other unsavory character find her instead...it just doesn't sit right with me. I feel that he is more than he appears so I have been working out a timeline. I think GRRM spread out the facts on purpose to hide clues. I recently got the books on a Kindle app for my computer so I have been copying and pasting the quotes. I think perhaps when I get all the quotes arranged in a timeline I will post a thread on it.

This is the best map I have been able to find, so far, and it's interactve with links to the wiki pages. It also tracks some of the character movements with a spoiler control.

http://quartermaester.info/

[Whitering]

Maybe the Elder Brother just understands that basically everyone between King's Landing and the Crossroads knows that Brienne is looking for Sansa, so if she finds Sansa, well, everyone will know. I am guessing the Elder Brother, probably knowing that Sansa is with LF thinks she is as safe as possible at this point. I really liked that analysis as well and think it may well be correct.

[myhousigilisthehousecat]

Oh maybe one of the reasons re-born novice Sandor volunteered for gravedigging duty (despite being injured) was so that he could find out if Arya was killed in Saltpans.

[Margaret Ballinger]

If the timeliine is correct he had been wounded for only about a month, so he's getting around, but still healing. He was dragging that leg when he left the Inn and Arya had to help him get in the saddle. So all this says his muscle was sliced. Since Elder Brother is so skilled I'm sure he stiched him up, and perhaps this is his rehab of sorts. When recovering they always want you to have thearpy to work the muscles. Also he is going through a spiritual change. Septon Meribald said he gave up shoes for his pennance, so perhaps Sandor has to dig graves. He burys Stark next to Lannister, sort of like 'burying the hacket,' burying his past. Also someone suggested that he had to dig a grave for every person he has killed, again putting his past to rest.

Only a few people know that the Boltons have a false Arya and are using her to claim Winterfell, including the Brotherhood Without Banners and Lady Stoneheart. And only Sandor and the Elder Brother knows that Arya was headed to the Saltpans because they had planned on the Eyrie. And no one knows that Sansa is with Littlefinger.

When Brienne sees the Elder Bro he appears to be growing out a beard and hair. I'm not saying he is the same Ser Morgrath that's now at the Eyrie. It's just another oddity about the Elder Brother. He convinced Brienne that she wouldn't find Sansa along the Trident. He didn't mention anywhere else, just the Trident. And it was said that the Brotherhood Without Banners were 'sniffing all up and down the Trident.'

Elder Brother knew that searches by the Brotherhood were fruitless, he knew who had owned and now owned the inn in just the past month, and he was only a day's ride away from the Inn which was one of the Brotherhood's hangouts. And he didn't want Brienne to continue her quest which is odd in itself. I'm not going to say that he is planning to rescue Sansa, because he only knew where Arya was headed. It's just that knowing how he was a knight, and there is a crime being committed by the Boltons, would he just sit back and let it happen? I am leaning toward him being attached to the Brotherhood in some way, and perhaps they might have something in the works that he doesn't want Brienne to blunder into. The Brotherhood is being led by Lady Stoneheart after all.

[LongRider]

Yes, I see now that some of the town was burnt when Arya arrived. However, the EB tells Brienne "They burned everything at the Saltpans, save the castle. Only that was made of stone..."

And later the EB is talking to Brienne after supper; "There's nothing," Brienne said.

"Only the castle remains. Even the fisherfolk are gone, the fortunate few out on the water when the raiders came. They watched their houses burn and listened to screams and cries float across the harbor, too fearful to land their boats.....When at last they came ashore, it was to bury friends and kin...They have moved to Maidenpool or other towns."

Also, as for the bird the KB sent to KL; he was reporting what happened to the Saltpans. I doubt he was trying to keep the info from Lord Tarly. If the fisherfolk went to Maidenpool, then Lord Tarly was informed about the raid.

[LongRider]

Yes, I see now that some of the town was burnt when Arya arrived. However, the EB tells Brienne "They burned everything at the Saltpans, save the castle. Only that was made of stone..."

And later the EB is talking to Brienne after supper; "There's nothing," Brienne said.

"Only the castle remains. Even the fisherfolk are gone, the fortunate few out on the water when the raiders came. They watched their houses burn and listened to screams and cries float across the harbor, too fearful to land their boats.....When at last they came ashore, it was to bury friends and kin...They have moved to Maidenpool or other towns."

So, was the Saltpans was raided after Arya went through. If all was burnt but the castle, then no buildings remained. Not the case when Arya went through. And the townsfolk did not seem traumatized. So, I'm not sure.

Also, as for the bird the KB sent to KL; he was reporting what happened to the Saltpans. I doubt he was trying to keep the info from Lord Tarly. If the fisherfolk went to Maidenpool, then Lord Tarly was informed about the raid.

[LongRider]

I doubt the EB knows where Sansa is, or do I see any compelling reason for him to look for her. He has plenty of lost souls on the QI to take up his time.

The main issue I have with the crackpot is this, the EB told Brienne;"...He begged me for the gift of mercy, but I am sworn not to kill again." LF hired the 3 hedge knights for "...we have a few more swords about us." These hedge knights would be expected to fight and kill if needed. But the EB has vowed not to do that. I didn't get the impression that the EB would be a oathbreaker.

Opps! Sorry about the double post!

[Margaret Ballinger]

True, I agree there.Elder Bro has a lot to do, and he took a vow. It wouldn't surprise me if he was the knight, but I'm not expecting it. My focus is if he at least shared knowledge with the Brotherhood Without Banners because he knew too much. He knew about their search along the Trident and who now owned the inn.

I wondered about how Elder Brother described the town, but did he go there or was he hearing the victims description? I think he was just voicing his anger at what was done. I don't see how it could be burned twice, since Arya said most of it was burned already. Also I know Lord Tarly as well as half of Westeros would know about the raid, but Elder Brother sent a raven to the Queen, why? There is a reason. He should have alerted someone closer. Like instead of calling a Fire Dept. that was 5 miles away he called on one that was 20 miles away. I think he sent a raven to the Queen because he wanted the truth to come out, that it was another person wearing the Hound's helm, and that the Brotherhood was not involved. Otherwise he would have appealed to someone closer. And his word would have more weight to it, given that he was the leader of the Quiet Isle, and he probably knows of the pressure the church was putting on Cersei to do something.

And I was wondering how bad Sandor was, if that limp was permanent. If the timeline I think it might be is correct, then it wasn't more than a month. So perhaps the wound is still healing. He was losing an awful lot of blood, and when Arya left she said the wound on his leg smelled funny. She has been around people with infections before. Lommy & that archer that was a victim of the Red Wedding who she said stunk like a corpse. So I feel that if there was an infection, it was just starting in. I think he was more in shock, so perhaps the wound wasn't that bad, just really deep.