The Gravedigging Hound - Complete analysis

[LongRider]

I don't worry too much about the message to KL as communications were difficult in Westeros and the EB was informing the Crown about a small port city that was raided and burnt. That's my take anyway.

Margaret, check out this thread from one of the PtP threads about the EB's healing powers;

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/97271-from-pawn-to-player-rethinking-sansa-xxi/?p=5118232

also, one one of the PtP threads someone analyzed SC's wounds, will see if I can find it, can't guarantee that tho.

I tried to say in my buggered up post that yes, the Saltpan's very likely had been raided when Arya went through. My mouse was messed up tho, and that caused me no end of grief. Got a new one and YAY! I can send out good messages again. (I hope!)

[Margaret Ballinger]

lol. I had a mouse go bad and my computer acted like it had a virus. It randomly clicked whenever it felt like it or when I would try to click it wouldn't or do double-clicks. Very irritating.

My hobby is genealogy. So I learn to stick with the facts only and make sure all evidence is spelled out correctly and sourced. I have my theories, but I keep them seperate from the facts. I will do the same with the timeline that I've been working on. Other people may see clues I have missed.

But thank you so much about the link! I wondered about his special abilites, and the mention that the cave is so old makes me wonder. I also read about the theory to what could have happened to Sandor's cloak. Very interesting.

[LongRider]

The weirwood magic is an interesting idea. A few posts after the linked one was mentioned the weirwood roots in the cave where the BWB took SC for his trial and combat w/Beric Dondarrion.

Remember Dondarrion was introduced sitting in the weirwood roots doing his Bloodraven imitation. After BD sets his sword on fire, didn't Gendry ask Arya about it and she replied "Magic." Hmmmm, did the Old Gods aid SC in that fight? Ponder ponder.

:dunno:

[Margaret Ballinger]

hmmm... well I do believe that Sandor is Lady's replacement. Whenever she thinks of one, she then thinks of the other. In an interview when GRRM was asked if Sandor was the replacement and he said "What? Interesting speculation. I won't comment on that." Why don't you want to talk about it GRRM? And what King Robert said to Ned about getting her a dog and she'll be happier for it. The Old Gods sent the direwolf south of the wall to meet the stag, which led to both their deaths. They sent the wolves to help the Stark children, and since Sansa's wolf is dead, would the Old Gods just say, "Oh well, tough luck for you," or would they send her another protector? I never heard this theory before you mentioned it, but it makes sense. And the first holy man that moved into that old cave on Quiet Isle was also said to have 'work wonders.'

I'm not a SanSan fan (I wouldn't mind if it went that way though), but I do believe that they 'saved' each other. She opened his eyes to where his life was headed, his purpose, and the people that he served were as brutal as his brother. She made him deal with his past, it changed him and hopefully will lead him to redemption and a better life. To me it's more about a spiritual change which I think is essential to his storyline. If Bran's vision is correct ( I think it is, and also Bloodraven was guiding him) and Sandor will face Ser Strong, he must armor himself in faith, as written in the Seven Pointed Star. That is the only way to survive against the undead and unholy.

And the way he always seems to come out of the shadows, over and over, even Tryion at the battle of Blackwater mentions how he came out of the shadows. There is something there, but I don't know what. The only guess I can come up with is that a 'shadow' only follows the commands of it's master, or acts on their behalf. But I don't know. It's just him appearing out of the shadows is a common thing for him, I noticed it even back at the 'tourney of the hand' after the feast he popped out of the shadows. But that red wollen tunic with a dog's head on it, eww...(just ruined my bad a*s image of him). It had me thinking "Did Ron Weasley's mom send you a sweater too?" :P

[LongRider]

And the way he always seems to come out of the shadows, over and over, even Tryion at the battle of Blackwater mentions how he came out of the shadows. There is something there, but I don't know what.

That's a good observation. Perhaps the coming out of the shadows motif is used to show SC's progression from darkness into the light. Which, I presume would include death and rebirth to complete the process. Chewy thought.

What doesn't get enough discussion when talking about Sandor tho (in my view) is his relationship with Arya. Yes, w/o his first relationship w/Sansa he would not have been able to care for Arya. But in his own stunted way he did care for and protect her. In fact, it was his travels w/Arya where I really took notice of the Hound and how he was changing.

After the RW because he could have cut Arya loose at any time, and she could have run off as well, but didn't. He worked with the villagers on their construction project, and even tho he drank himself to sleep every night, he was a reliable worker and gave Arya a place to stay, plus, he was saddened when they turned him out. :frown5:

I feel that the period of time from the RW to his "death" is quite an important time and contributed to his breakdown. He had tried in the village to get along with the folks, but due to his brutal reputation was ultimately rejected.

[Margaret Ballinger]

Yes, that is so true! Sansa was just the first step. At the RW he heard the song and knew what it meant, then there were men screaming and fire all around him. It was happening again. He wanted to join Robb's army, why his and not Stannis? As he pointed out Robb was much like his father - honorable. He was seeking the truth and a new purpose, and he was so close. If he got there a few hours earlier he might have easily been in one of those tents with the men, burning to death. His cold rages afterwards, speak volumes. He wanted to serve someone noble and honorable, someone to give his life purpose. But he is taking a step too far. His eyes have been opened, but he is still doesn't have the right mindset, he hasn't found inner purpose and faith yet. He needs to learn how to live first. He is still too much 'the Hound.'

I agree about coming from darkness into light, and on the other hand Arya is going the other way, further into darkness. He can see a lot of himself reflected in her which I think helps him along his way to redeemption. I also noticed while Sansa confronted his spirit and talked faith and gods, Arya confronts him about everything physical - his deeds, even his looks. And I don't believe that anyone has ever given him cold, angry stares before, especially from little girls.

Oh there is a interesting thing when Sansa was in the Sept praying at the start of the Blackwater Battle she prayed for the Hound. (And when he needed saving he got Elder Brother.) But she was interrupted when the High Septon started praying for the one true king. Sansa got pissed and walked out said:

"Let his sword break and his shield shatter, Sansa thought coldly as she shoved out through the doors, let his courage fail him and every man desert him."

I find it odd that all of that happened to Sandor. Lost his sword at the Twins during the RW. Lost his shield in his combat trial when it caught fire, he had to smash it himself to get it off him. His courage failed him while trying to defend the castle, his home. And he couldn't find a new home anywhere, that village, then even Arya left him. I don't know what that means because she was hating on Joffrey wishing that would happen to him, yet instead it all happened to Sandor. I don't get it.

[LongRider]

Here's an old but good thread about the Hound. If you haven't seen it, give it a look.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/69433-why-all-the-love-for-the-hound/

:fencing:

(I put the swords just cuz I think it's cool)

[LongRider]

Sandor and Arya have a few parallels; they are both killers, both strong personalities, both looking for Robb. After the RW, both are lost; Sandor to his rage and Arya to her grief. And both (if the gravedigger = Sandor idea is true) both take a spiritual path to change their lives.

But what different paths! Sandor's spiritual leader has vowed not to kill again, but Arya's is teaching her about killing and death. Both novitiates have a spiritual "death"; Sandor's a sudden one beneath a tree while Arya's is a slow death of her identity and former self. Arya is allowed into the world and Sandor is cloistered away from it. Arya is required to talk ("tell me three new things") and Sandor must be mute.

How clever GRRM is, Sandor just can't get away from those Stark girls.

edit: Arya told the KM she had no where else to go and once Arya had left Sandor he had no reason to go to the Vale, and no where else to go either.

[LongRider]

Oh there is a interesting thing when Sansa was in the Sept praying at the start of the Blackwater Battle she prayed for the Hound. (And when he needed saving he got Elder Brother.) But she was interrupted when the High Septon started praying for the one true king. Sansa got pissed and walked out said:

"Let his sword break and his shield shatter, Sansa thought coldly as she shoved out through the doors, let his courage fail him and every man desert him."

I find it odd that all of that happened to Sandor. Lost his sword at the Twins during the RW. Lost his shield in his combat trial when it caught fire, he had to smash it himself to get it off him. His courage failed him while trying to defend the castle, his home. And he couldn't find a new home anywhere, that village, then even Arya left him. I don't know what that means because she was hating on Joffrey wishing that would happen to him, yet instead it all happened to Sandor. I don't get it.

This sounds like one of those literary devices I would never pick up on, thanks for pointing that out.

:D

[Daedric Justice]

"Arya stays by the river, as most travelers would, and mentions passing fields and farms and other things, but never mentions passing Elder Brother"

________________________

Great posts Margaret, a lot of food for thought there.

I take issue with your conclusion above though...The Riverlands is a big place. they could have pased within 100 yards of each other and wouldn't necessarily know it. It is fair to say that Ayra would have hidden from anyone and everyone that she saw or heard on her journey (and we also know that she is good at hiding and generally being quiet as a mouse).

I don't disagree with your main points - I just don't think we can surmise that the Brutha came from the other direction just because he never bumped into Arya...

[A Bastard Brother]

I hope there is more for the Hound. I have read all of this... it took some time, but I did. I want an end to his story. I think even a reveal that he is the gravedigger would be satisfying, but ultimately him defeating his brother in TBC would be awesome. I don't see it happening though. This was a great post.

The hound was/is my favorite minor character (Non-POV). I love the pure honesty he has for his work. When he is ordered to ride down a boy he does, when he is ordered to kill he does, he does not sugar coat it or make it seem like something more than it is. He knows his job and follows his orders, but then he is soft in some parts. He does not object when Sansa is mistreated, but he does offer help. He takes care of her in situations he can and continues this with Arya. The way he carries himself is great.

I especially like the symbolism on his path from Dark to light and his appearance from the shadows to foreground. I had not picked up on that before, but I do see it now.

I want him to be alive even if just for a final reveal that he was sent off with more than a helmet on a dirt mound.

[Le Cygne]

Agree, I like him, too. I like a straight shooter. He's my favorite minor or major character (Brienne is close behind at number 2).

I know you are saying nice things (yay!), just wanted to add he did object, he said enough, and he manipulated Joffrey to not ask him to do it, and to not do it more, too. Of course, we aren't seeing every day of their lives, so there were likely other times, too. Look at him here, twice warding off Joffrey when he's in the mood to beat Sansa:

Joffrey scowled. He knew she was lying, she could see it. He would make her bleed for this.

“The girl speaks truly,” the Hound rasped. “What a man sows on his name day, he reaps throughout the year.” His voice was flat, as if he did not care a whit whether the king believed him or no...

“You should help him up and tell him how well he rode.” Sansa could not seem to stop herself.

“He got knocked off his horse and fell in the dirt,” the king pointed out. “That’s not riding well.”

“Look,” the Hound interrupted. “The boy has courage. He’s going to try again.”

[Margaret Ballinger]

Agree Dark Brotherhood - he could have been coming from the other way, but I doubt it. I have been working on a timeline for the Elder Brother because he is an odd one.

• Day 1 - Hound & Arya got into a bar brawl and left quite a bloody mess behind. The Hound suffered from multiple wounds and was bleeding bad.
  
• Day 1 - Arya treated his wounds as best she could and camped for the night.
  
• Day 2 - Before noon, Arya ditched him barely a day's ride away from the Inn and it took her 6 days to get to the Saltpans.
  
• Day 2 - When leaving the Hound, she thought that he didn't have the strength to lift a sword, so it is doubtful he could get water & food. Also she thought that the wolves would smell the blood on him when the sun went down. He would not have lasted long. It was massive blood loss, not an infection. He was in shock. If there was an infection it was just setting in, as Arya said it smelled funny, but she didn't say it stinked as she did with other characters with infections.
  
• Day 2 - Elder Brother probably found Sandor later that day and buried 'the Hound.' He had to put rocks on top so the carrion eaters didn't dig up his bloody armor. Anyone passing by would know it was a grave. He was a knight that was stripped bare of his armor when people thought he was dead. He knew that war brings scavengers. But he had to put the Hound's helm on the grave - to identify that 'the Hound' was dead and buried, and it wasn't just another random grave, like thousands of others across the Riverlands.
  
• Day 2 or 3 - Rorge & his group was racing to the Saltpans to try to escape Westeros. They stopped at the Inn, and saw the bloody mess. Perhaps they were still disposing of the bodies. Rorge got the innkeep and the whores to tell them what happened, that the Hound had killed them. Rorge killed the innkeep and continued on to the Saltpans.
  
• Day 2 or 3 - Rorge & his group run across the Hound's grave and steal the helm from it.
  
• Day 5 - Rorge & his gang raid the Saltpans. Fisherfolk out in their boats watched and heard the carnage, powerless to stop them. When the fires died down and they thought it safe they returned to the town to bury the dead. Two of the victims were Septon Bennet who heard confessions and Brother Clement who was in town to sell their famous mead. Brother Clement was mortally wounded.
  
• Day 5 - 7 - The surviving townsfolk take all the wounded over to the Elder Brother on the Quiet Isle for treatment. So he must have returned with Sandor by this time.
  
• Day 7 - Six days after she abandoned the Hound, Arya arrives at the Saltpans, where she discovers that all the alehouses, inns, shops, and almost the whole town is burnt. No one seemed to take note of her, they were probably all mourning and/or in shock. The fires were long out, the bodies buried, so the raid probably happened about 2 days before she got there. When she approached the ship a cask of mead was being rolled up the dock. Since all of the alehouses and shops were burnt, this probably came from Brother Clement's ferryload or wagonload of mead. There is no way to know for certain when a ship was coming into port, so he probably was there a few days early and it was off-loaded away from the buildings and somewhere near the docks where it escaped the fire.
  

About a 2 week time gap?

• When Brienne gets to the island she spies the Gravedigger digging a grave for Brother Clement who succumbed to his wounds, which must have been pretty bad if Elder Brother's abilities couldn't save him. How long can one linger? A week or two at the most? So my guess is this is about 2 weeks after Sandor was wounded. Long enough for him to heal enough to get around, but not fully healed yet.
  
• Elder Brother told Septon Meribald that no one has been able to confess since Septon Bennet died in the raid. Meribald replied, "I hope you have some better sins than the last time I came through.” I thought, "Oh yeah? Well then, go over there and speak to that big guy with a limp....Muah-Ha-ha!" I think that was a bit of GRRM humor. But at any rate, Septon Meribald probably heard Sandor's story, which might, or might not, lead to something later.
  
• Through Sandor, Elder Brother knows all about the Stark girls. He knows the real Arya was last seen headed to the Eyrie. He knows there is a false Arya that is being used to steal Winterfell. He probably also told him all about Sansa, how she opened his eyes and 'saved' him from the path he was on. How he had a dagger to her throat, and instead of screaming in terror, instead of pleading for her life, she sung a hymn, a prayer, for him.
  
• When Brienne later went into her "maid of 3 and ten" speech Elder Brother says Sansa's name softly. Softly? Like she was some angel. But what is odd is that he knows Sansa is in grave danger, and he knows that Brienne is trying to find and protect her, to save her life. So why does he try to get her to quit her quest and gives her this long guilt trip on her, so much so that it makes her weep? That is odd to me. Like he is saying, "Oh, forget about her, leave her to her fate, just go home because your dad misses you and that's more important than saving a life or two." What? Perhaps he doesn't want her to blunder in and ruin some plan he knows about.
  
• Brienne notices that he keeps a tonsure, but he has noticable stubble and appears to be growing a beard as well. When did he stop shaving, a couple of weeks back maybe? I will admit I had to look up what a tonsure was but I also learned that during the Medieval period, if a monk fails to keep clean-shaven he gets a stern warning and if he still fails to shave for longer than a month he will be thrown out. I wonder if he just didn't have time with tending to the victims of the raid, or is there another reason why he fell out of his routine? I don't know, but I feel GRRM wrote it for a reason.
  
• Elder Brother was able to convince Brienne that she would not find the Stark girls along the Trident. Why was he so sure they were not there? Eariler, Timeon was it?, told Brienne that Lord Beric's men were 'sniffing all up and down the Trident' for the Hound and the Stark girl. And Elder Brother didn't say Riverlands, just 'along the Trident' it was no use looking. So he is aware of the efforts of the Brotherhood Without Banners.
  
• Elder Brother told Septon Meribald who kept the inn now, Masha Heddle nieces, and this is just a couple of weeks after the last innkeeper was killed by Rorge. How could he have known that...oh that's right, the Inn is one of the hangouts of the Brotherhood Without Banners, and Gendry is stationed there as a smith. Again, I wonder why he so far inland, barely a day's ride away from there when he found Sandor.
  
• When Brienne goes to the Saltpans she said the air still smelled of smoke. So again this is a clue to how little time has past between the brawl at the inn and her arriving on the isle. With it being a port town, and that the rains are coming more often, it wouldn't be long before the smell of fire would be washed clean.
  

Also there is a part that gave me pause, but I don't know if it's a clue or another one of GRRM's red herrings. The history of the Inn, how it was called a clanking dragon because of the big 3 headed black dragon sign that rattled in the wind. It was the sigil of Blackfyre. It got hacked into pieces and many years later one of the heads washed up on Quiet Isle, but by then it turned red from the rust. I didn't think it meant anything until I read a line Elder Brother said: "I fought for Prince Rhaegar, though he never knew my name. I could not tell you why,. . ." Why would Rhaegar know his name? He was just one knight among thousands on the field that day. That got me wondering who Elder Brother is. There is just something weird with him.

I'm not saying the Elder Brother is a 'brother' but at least I think that he exchanges information with the Brotherhood Without Banners and might know they are planning something. And if they have Tom O' Seven spying in Riverrun, then why not have someone else infiltrate the Eyrie? Those two places are the last where the girls have kin, but both places are now being controlled by others. Lady Stoneheart wants her children back.

As for Sandor, I don't think he will get involved unless forced. He is still healing, and he is trying to reform himself. As Brother Narbert said, 'Some wounds do not show." Sandor has to heal both body and mind to face his next challenge. Also GRRM said he was a bit put off by the lack of religion in Lord of the RIngs. He was raised Catholic and said the trinity was what inspired the Faith of the 7. So far he has shown how the other religions have power, but I think Sandor's redemption will be the example for the Faith. The whole path to the isle that Brienne had to take, the 'crooked path of faith' is a bible lesson. The line where Tyrion told Sansa she was a loyal as a deer surrounded by wolves and she corrected 'lions.' That is another reference. Daniel in the lion's den. Have faith and you will survive, even when surrounded by those that want to devour you. The whole storyline of Sandor is a 'born again' story. Of him having his eyes opened, then going through awareness of what he has done, to guilt and the desire to change. Then to be 'reborn' he has to confess his sins, which is like drawing the pus out of an infected would so it can finally heal.

I'm not a big SanSan fan, although I wouldn't mind it. GRRM said that all the Starks have warging abilities, that means Sansa too. And whenever she mentions Lady, she then thinks of the Hound, or vise versa. (I'm re-reading to see how many times she does this). Even with the Blackwater battle when she looks out her window at the wildfire she wimpered "Lady" then the Hound grabbed her. I think he's Lady's replacement. So their bond is different than a romantic one, but there might be a little of that going on too. In an interview GRRM admitted there was 'something there' and he found it interesting to see how the fans 'reacted to it.' I just don't feel they will be 'happily ever after' in the end because that's not GRRM's style. I also believe that he won't swoop down and rescue her. I believe her storyline is building where she will take action to save herself. But my hope is that they at least meet up so she can see her prayers were answered, he was saved and his rage was gentled. Also out of all the places Brienne has traveled, if she ever does find Sansa, what would be a safe place to hide her? Just a thought I'm throwing out.

I believe that since Bran saw Sandor facing Ser Strong that eventually it will happen, not in Cersei's trial, but later on. But I noticed that people forget, Ser Strong is no longer his brother. It's a wandering corpse in need of a grave. And what does Sandor do now? (more of GRRM's humor, I think). I think by the time Sandor is ready to face this 'thing' he will no longer be from the side of hate, but of compassion. It was created by dark magic. Someone did a great sin and created this unholy thing out of his own kin. And they will use it to commit their evil deeds. If Bran's vision is correct and he will have to face it, he will be not be doing it out of revenge or hate and it would no longer be an act of kinslaying since it's already dead. He would be laying to rest the evil that was done, to set things right.

[King Jaime Lannister]

hmmm... well I do believe that Sandor is Lady's replacement. Whenever she thinks of one, she then thinks of the other. In an interview when GRRM was asked if Sandor was the replacement and he said "What? Interesting speculation. I won't comment on that." Why don't you want to talk about it GRRM? And what King Robert said to Ned about getting her a dog and she'll be happier for it. The Old Gods sent the direwolf south of the wall to meet the stag, which led to both their deaths. They sent the wolves to help the Stark children, and since Sansa's wolf is dead, would the Old Gods just say, "Oh well, tough luck for you," or would they send her another protector? I never heard this theory before you mentioned it, but it makes sense. And the first holy man that moved into that old cave on Quiet Isle was also said to have 'work wonders.'

I'm not a SanSan fan (I wouldn't mind if it went that way though), but I do believe that they 'saved' each other. She opened his eyes to where his life was headed, his purpose, and the people that he served were as brutal as his brother. She made him deal with his past, it changed him and hopefully will lead him to redemption and a better life. To me it's more about a spiritual change which I think is essential to his storyline. If Bran's vision is correct ( I think it is, and also Bloodraven was guiding him) and Sandor will face Ser Strong, he must armor himself in faith, as written in the Seven Pointed Star. That is the only way to survive against the undead and unholy.

And the way he always seems to come out of the shadows, over and over, even Tryion at the battle of Blackwater mentions how he came out of the shadows. There is something there, but I don't know what. The only guess I can come up with is that a 'shadow' only follows the commands of it's master, or acts on their behalf. But I don't know. It's just him appearing out of the shadows is a common thing for him, I noticed it even back at the 'tourney of the hand' after the feast he popped out of the shadows. But that red wollen tunic with a dog's head on it, eww...(just ruined my bad a*s image of him). It had me thinking "Did Ron Weasley's mom send you a sweater too?" :P

Great take! Are you new to the forums? I have not seen you before. And that is surprising for such a great take. I began readings, and then I looked up for the name expecting to see one of the usual "Knight's of the Round Table."

The hound was/is my favorite minor character (Non-POV). I love the pure honesty he has for his work. When he is ordered to ride down a boy he does, when he is ordered to kill he does, he does not sugar coat it or make it seem like something more than it is. He knows his job and follows his orders, but then he is soft in some parts. He does not object when Sansa is mistreated, but he does offer help. He takes care of her in situations he can and continues this with Arya. The way he carries himself is great.

I love the Hound as well. I have wondered for a while how GRRM feels about him. We know he often talks about Tyrion as his favorite character. I have a feeling George has a special fondness for The House as well.

[Margaret Ballinger]

King Jaime Lannister - Hi there! Yes I'm new here. About 2 weeks I think. Thank you so much for your kind words.

I'm actually still on book 2. I bought the first 3 in paperback when season 3 started. My problem is that I keep skipping ahead to read certain character's chapters so I have gaps in the story I'm trying to fill in. My favorite was Arya, but she seems to be headed into darkness. I love Davos. I used to think the Hound was a creepy stalker cause he always lurked in shadows and jumped out, scaring the poop outta Sansa. I was raised Christian but no longer go to church or read the bible. I did take a religion, witchcraft and magic class in college because I am interested in other cultures and their beliefs. I love history and my hobby is genealogy which I started doing when I was a teen. So I believe that background has helped me spot details and it's why I am fond of putting mysteries down in timelines to work it out. I noticed that GRRM likes to spread his clues out, so way over in book 4 there is a clue to a timeline that is back in book 2. It's a challenge to sort it all out without taking notes.

As I started taking a closer look at the Hound, which I have my BFF to thank for convincing me he wasn't a creeper, I noticed a theme with him. He is the lost sinner, aware of the wrong path he was on and trying to find a purpose to his life. He is the one coming out of the darkness and into the light. Arya is heading into darkness and losing herself. Sansa is the one that is constantly being tested. Everyone around her trying to get her to lose her morals in some way, or to turn away from her faith. So I see their characters, their egos, but also there is this sort of spiritual battle going on as well. I love it in the show where Cersei sees Sansa praying and giving hope and strength to the other women. Acting more like a queen than the queen herself. Cersei calls her over and sneers, "You're just perfect, aren't you?" That tone says it all, she sees her praying and despises her for it. Then she tries to drag her down to her level by making her drink. When that fails she terrorizes her with stories on how she will be raped. Even the Hound tried to lead her astray, telling her there were no gods.

I think GRRM is a genius to be able to blend in so much, so many layers going on. Some chapters I have read 4 or 5 times and I still find things I had missed. I try to just state the facts and not go into crackpot theories, but I do have them too :p

But I would say that the Hound has become one of my favorite characters. I don't feel that his story is finished. GRRM has created so much build up. Heck, we know more about his family history than we do Robb Stark's wife, and she was the Queen in the North. GRRM mentioned that all the Starks are wargs to different degrees. I think he is Sansa's replacement. She projects her feelings on him. Whenever she is distressed he shows up. I noticed the only time he grabbed her forcefully is when she ran off to the godswood and he couldn't find her. She had feared for her life too. Then when Joffrey came into her room after Ned was killed he got a little rough. It was after she got hit so possibly he was stressed because he couldn't do anything about it. It's just that whenever she is stressed it seems to transfer to him. I don't know where GRRM intends to take it. My crackpot theory is that at one point Cersei will find out where Sansa is and send in a force. Or perhaps once her trial is over she will send out Ser Strong to track her down like some Medieval 'Terminator'. He never eats, he never sleeps, he doesn't feel pity or remorse or fear.. and he won't stop until Sansa Stark is dead. Cersei said she didn't just want Sansa dead, she wanted her to 'beg' for death. Bran saw both Jaime and the Hound in shadow as they faced Ser Strong. The only thing I can think of is that being in shadow means they were serving someone else. A shadow only does what it's master commands, it acts on their behalf. If this crackpot theory of mind plays out and Jaime or Sandor, or both, come to her aid to defend her against Ser Strong, then both could be the valonqar, since they are both younger brothers. Also Sansa will slay a 'savage giant' but how? She can't shoot a bow or lift a sword. I used to think it meant Littlefinger and it could still be (I want her to kill him), but if Ser Strong comes for her, and if the Hound is the one to act as her protector, her champion, then in a way she would be the one to slay it. I don't know. I would be happy if Sandor just lived out his days on that beautiful Isle. He has been through enough. But as Thoros said, "The Lord of Light is not yet done with Joffrey’s Hound, it would seem.”

[ache]

Bran saw both Jaime and the Hound in shadow as they faced Ser Strong. The only thing I can think of is that being in shadow means they were serving someone else. A shadow only does what it's master commands, it acts on their behalf. If this crackpot theory of mind plays out and Jaime or Sandor, or both, come to her aid to defend her against Ser Strong, then both could be the valonqar, since they are both younger brothers. Also Sansa will slay a 'savage giant' but how? She can't shoot a bow or lift a sword. I used to think it meant Littlefinger and it could still be (I want her to kill him), but if Ser Strong comes for her, and if the Hound is the one to act as her protector, her champion, then in a way she would be the one to slay it. I don't know. I would be happy if Sandor just lived out his days on that beautiful Isle. He has been through enough. But as Thoros said, "The Lord of Light is not yet done with Joffrey’s Hound, it would seem.”

Re shadows - Something can cast a shadow over you if you are sheltering beneath it and I think that is what the shadows of Jaime and Sandor represent - protection. The shadow of the armoured giant is looming over them all but Sansa and Arya have the protection of Jaime and Sandor between them and the giant. I'm not really loving the whole Sandor vs unGregor thing, it seems kind of cliched and lame but it looks like things are heading that way.

The giant that Sansa is supposed to slay is probably Littlefinger and I think she'll do it indirectly. I could maybe see a symmetry happening between the way Lf offed Lysa and how Sansa then gets rid of him. Lysa had a real history of getting rid of anyone who took the attention of her favourites, be it SR, Lf or Marillion, away from her. She gives excuses but really, it is jealousy every time imo.

It will be good for him to have a little companion. He played with Vardis Egen’s boy when we first returned to the Eyrie, and my steward’s sons as well, but they were much too rough and I had no choice but to send them away.

When he played for them at supper, the young singer often seemed to be singing directly at her. Her aunt was far from pleased. Lady Lysa doted on Marillion, and had banished two serving girls and even a page for telling lies about him.

“When they stole him from me, I made a promise to myself that I would never let it happen again. Jon wished to send my sweet Robert to Dragonstone, and that sot of a king would have given him to Cersei Lannister, but I never let them … no more than I’ll let you steal my Petyr Littlefinger. Do you hear me, Alayne or Sansa or whatever you call yourself? Do you hear what I am telling you?”

Lf was able to use this easily, taking advantage of Lysa's habit of blaming the other party every time, allowing her to keep her favourites and get rid of the competition. She saw it was Lf doing the kissing but it made no difference, it was Sansa that had to go.

Now, SR has grown very attached to Sansa and regards her as his own.

“No,” said Alayne, even as Robert said, “She’s my friend. Terrance and Gyles can’t have her.”

What would happen if Sansa manoeuvered Lf into kissing her when she knew SR could see?

[LongRider]

I'm with you ache, I don't like the Sandor/ Robert Strong fight idea either and I'm hoping GRRM doesn't as well. One thing that gives me hope is I could never out guess GRRM when reading the books.

Another thing, I try to be careful about dreams and prophesy, they can be tricky and are not always easily decoded. For all we know, the "terrible head of a hound" in the vision could be Sandor's helm and not the man himself!

For Sansa's current predicament, my hopes is she gets herself out and doesn't require rescue. I like how she seems to be with strong women now, not the schemers she was surrounded by in KL.

edit; just for fun, who would we find inside Sandor's helm, paired with Jaime and fighting R Strong? Brienne! Why not? My wee little cracked pot.

:fencing:

[Margaret Ballinger]

I agree, I don't want Sandor to fight. I would be happy if he was finally at peace. Really, I would. But I don't see the clues going that way. I just don't think GRRM will let him rest for long since there was all this foreshadowing and build-up. I read somewhere that he has been metioned almost 600 times in the books and the only non-POV characters to be mentioned that many times have been Joffrey, Tywin, Stannis, etc. and they are all major players. So I don't think Sandor will have a fade away ending.

I was hoping that Brienne would wear the Hound's helm too. It would make sense since both Jaime & Brienne are on the same mission to defend Sansa, and I do like the idea of them being together. However, Bran also saw their armor, and both Jaime and the Hound no longer wear their armor. While the Hound was wandering his armor was not being cared, it got pretty bloody then it was buried. So I don't understand that aspect of the vision.

The shadows...I agree with you and it sort of falls in line with my theory that they are there on behalf of someone else. I just thought of Stannis's shadow baby doing his deeds for him. If you have a sidekick that follows you around they are often referred to as your shadow. How 'there were shadows all around them' meaning a lot more than just the three that Bran focused on. And he was being guided by Bloodraven so he pointed out those 3 to Bran?

Also I should point out that Bran didn't see them fighting, just that they were facing off. Perhaps they would testify against Ser Strong? I don't know. I try to stick with just the facts, but I'm open to all theories and love hearing them. It makes me think in new ways.

I do believe that Sansa will finally become the she-wolf. It's been building for so long. Everyone wants her to kill Littlfinger, and he has dealt out so much damage to her family. I don't see Sandor swooping down to the rescue (as my SanSan lovin' BFF would like to see, lol.). But I don't think she will kill him directly.

Littlefinger is very much like Thomas Seymour, who was best known for his influence over the 'Virgin Queen' Elizabeth. He manipulated the boy King to get titles and lands, but he always wanted more. He had a improper relationship with a young lady, and she was arrange-married off to a much older, and very rich man. When he died Thomas Seymour picked up where he left off, and married the rich widow. She had a step-daughter living with her which he liked to 'play' with, slapping her rear and such. The rich widow became upset but he was able to explain it away. Eventually the rich widow became pregnant and was even more concerned with his flirtation so had Elizabeth sent away. The rich widow died in childbirth, under a year after they were married. He inherited all her lands and titles, making him a very rich man...but it still wasn't enough. He was caught outside the young King's chambers when the boy's pet dog started barking and gave him away. He killed the dog and was captured. His whole household was also imprisoned, including Elizabeth. She realized what all he had been up to and that because of him her life was in danger. She went from pawn to player, outsmarting him and those quesitoning her. She was freed, later became Queen and although had many suitors, decided that she didn't want to marry. He got his head chopped off. I think I read that Elizabeth was imprisoned for a year. Also when watching the movies about her I noticed she had a protector, Walsingham, who in the movie always wore black and kept to the shadows. He discovered several plots against her, was a faithful friend, and before her rule he was in exile because of his faith.

I'm not saying that she will sit the iron throne, err...no. but Winterfell maybe? I can't see her leading a host to battle, but I do believe she will save herself. If her identity is found out, and she gets drug back to King's Landing for trial, she has enough on Littlefinger to hang him, especially with Jon Arryn too. So she could be a major threat to Littlefinger. But also it's the 'boy king and his dog' that brought down Thomas Seymour. I was thinking of Rickon and if he would be found. His direwolf would prove who he was, and it would ruin Littlefinger's plans since the male heir comes before the female. So the party would be over for both Littlefinger and the Boltons as soon as Rickon is found. Littlefinger told Sansa he was planning on unveiling her true identity to gather support in order to reclaim Winterfell away from the Boltons (I don't believe it, because Cersei will realize Littlefinger had been hiding her all along, and she would also realize he was behind it all). Sansa is the 'hidden dagger' that Littlefinger will use against the Boltons at some point. So if he learned of Rickon, would he try to take him out? Would the Boltons try since they have Winterfell? Very few people know that the Boltons 'Arya' is false, besides Theon, Jaime and Brienne there is the Brotherhood Without Banners led by Lady Stoneheart, who is looking for her, Sandor and Elder Brother, and probably poor Septon Meribald who's ears are probably bleeding after hearing Sandor's confession. :p

And Elder Brother told Brienne not to search along the Trident. The Brotherhood had already seached up and down the Trident, questioning Freys, etc. So he must have known that. Elder brother also tried to convince Brienne to give up her quest to try to save a life. Leave Sansa to her fate. That is very suspicious to me. I'm not saying he or Sandor is planning something, but he might know of a plan the Brotherhood has going. Also, Ser Shadrich said that Varys offered a reward, but that was well known, there is probably wanted posters nailed to every tree. lol. Just because he mentioned it, doesn't mean he is working for the Queen. He did say he fought on the losing side too. He strikes me as cunning, so he could have just mentioned splitting the reward to see which side Brienne was on, to see if she would take the bait. I don't know if he is working with the Brotherhood or not, or if that other hedge knight that is there, Morgrath, is there for some other reason, but something is going on, and Elder Brother knows too much.

:dunno:

[Daedric Justice]

Also out of all the places Brienne has traveled, if she ever does find Sansa, what would be a safe place to hide her? Just a thought I'm throwing out.

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Loving this. Make it happen, George.

Sansa is always banging on about there not being any "true knights". It would be cool if Joffrey's dog became hers.

she will send out Ser Strong to track her down like some Medieval 'Terminator'

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Loving this even more! I think they should make a spin-off tv show out of this. Or at least a faux grindhouse trailer...

[The Mad Wolf]

Nice job putting this together. I hope he's still alive actually, I kinda started to like Sandor