From Pawn to Player? Rereading Sansa

[Mindrot]

Oh, and regarding the Lady incident, since you quoted me above...I was not trying to "excuse" Sansa's lying (although I think it was an understandable reaction in the situation, and less immoral than others seem to think), merely trying to rebut the misguided notion that Sansa's decision to omit the truth directly led to Lady's death. I find that notion abhorrent, and all the evidence that we have (Cersei not wanting the direwolves there, Cersei being wayyyy overprotective of Joff, direwolves IN FACT being dangerous regardless of who started the fight, Lady's overall innocence, Robert's inability to stand up to Cersei even when he knows Joff was likely lying and the direwolf itself was innocent) tells us that Lady was dead no matter what Sansa said.

And I seriously judge anyone who says that Sansa "deserved" to lose her direwolf.

Impossible to say one way or the other whether Sansa telling the truth would have spared Lady, one thing is for certain though: Had she told the truth she would have increased the chances that Lady would simply have been sent away. Lets look at your evidence that Lady was doomed no matter what.

1.Cersei not wanting the direwolves there - Easy fix, simply send the wolves away. Their death is not required.

2. Cersei being way overprotective of Joff - Again, the decision to kill Lady was not Cersei's, it was Roberts. And he is most certainly not wayyy overprotective of Joff. His quote about Joff carrying the scars for the rest of his life: "So he will. Perhaps they will teach him a lesson..." He is a Warrior-King, the wounds inflicted upon Joff are not life threatening and therefore very easily ignored.

3.Direwolves IN FACT being dangerous no matter who started the fight - This is not a FACT at all, it certainly is not a FACT that Lady is dangerous. She seems like a very docile animal, her description by Ned "She was the smallest of the litter, the prettiest, the most gentle and trusting. She looked at him with bright golden eyes, and he ruffled her thick grey fur." Sounds like a wild and dangerous beast yeah? The direwolves are like dogs. Some are dangerous, some are not. Lady certainly was not, and even the wild Nymeria was only a dangerous beast if you believe Joffs story (Sansa could have provided testimony against that). If you believe Aryas story, the wolf was only doing what it was suppose to do: Protecting Arya.

4.Ladys overall innocence - She was innocent, and no person in that room wanted the wolf to be killed except for Cersei.

5. Roberts inability to stand up to Cersei even when he knows Joff was likely lying and the direwolf itself was innocent - This is why Sansa's testimony would have been so important. It was Roberts decision to have Lady killed, not Cersei. His quote "A direwolf is a savage beast. Sooner or later it would have turned on your girl the same way the other did on my son. Get her a dog, she'll be happier for it". The Kings final argument for why he orders the wolf killed. Sansa's testimony may or may not have swayed the King to decide to simply send the wolf away or to ignore Cersei completely. It is impossible to say for sure, but the FACT still remains that Sansa telling the truth would have improved the odds of her wolf's fate, even if only slightly.

Her lack of 'testimony' did not direcly cause the death of her Direwolf, but that does not absolve her of culpability in the wolf's death, which was my point in the very first post on made on the subject. Her decision to not tell the truth means she bears some of the responsibility for her wolfs death.

[brashcandy]

Rapsie & Starbird, I couldn't agree more with your comments concerning Septa Mordane. I was mortified by her behaviour during the tourney feast. What kind of chaperone - never mind her other duties as teacher and role model - gets drunk and falls asleep when you're supposed to be looking after the Hand's daughter? Gross negligence, and I think Rapsie's point is particularly valid, in that Septa Mordane probably had a strong, if not stronger role to play in Sansa's development than Catelyn ever did. And way to go for representing Northern pride during the tourney Septa! The looking down at Jory made me mad too. But enough of my rant :)

I really loved this chapter. It reminded me of my days at school, chatting with my best friend at sports' day, talking about all the boys, pointing out crushes and just feeling relaxed and happy. (Oh, the innocence of youth) I was reminded of why I like Sansa chapters as well - besides the Hound! - it's one of those POVs where Martin is able to indulge in the splendor of court life and I thought he did a really good job in making the scene come alive, and giving us a sense of why Sansa finds the spectacle so engrossing. And it's like he's ticking off so many of the characters who will later come to play a role in Sansa's destiny: Oh there's pervy Littlefinger, and look, Bronze Yohn Royce, even the stranger from the Vale of Arryn that Sansa can't rouse her tears for seemed like a vague foreshadowing to Harry the Heir.

Her lack of tears at the young knight's death was intriguing. Indeed, one would expect that Sansa's next chapter would have seen her overwrought at the slightest provocation, but she's remarkably stoic in the face of this casual death. She thinks that it's because she's used up all tears for Bran and Lady, but I think what we're witnessing is her slowly growing up. Getting hysterical like Jeyne over someone that ultimately means nothing to you seems pointless. This is not to say that she's not empathetic to the boy's suffering (obviously later on it shows she still has plenty empathy), but her lack of tears and managing to keep her composure signifies a coming to grips with the realities of the world. Basically, this seems like Sansa's "Bran" moment when he went to see his father execute the deserter. Starks can face death.

I was also amused by her blatant fawning over Loras :) Reading this I was thinking where the hell is Joff and what is he thinking watching Sansa's mouth literally drop water over the Knight of Flowers. Still it was nice to see Sansa bring her inner fangirl out. ;)

I also, for the second time in as many chapters found myself just a teensy bit sympathetic to Joffrey. Moreso in this one than the other. The nasty incident between Robert and Cersei at the end of the feast really highlighted to me just how bad it is for children to grow up around parents who feel such dislike toward one another.

And then we come to the highlight of the chapter folks, the Hound tell all, Sansa's official crowning as "little bird" and no.1 of the death threats Sandor makes to Sansa :P Ok, ok, not trying to make light of it, but I do love this part of the chapter for so many reasons. Obviously it reveals the Hound's awful history and Gregor's lunacy, but the real significance of the chapter to me is that it shows Sansa's moving beyond mere recitation of niceties, into truly being affected by the spectre of someone's misery, and responding to it with real honest emotion and feeling.The Hound had called her on this artificiality earlier, and it is the basis for her nickname:

"Some Septa trained you well. You're like one of those birds from the Summer Isles, aren't you? A pretty little talking bird, repeating all the pretty little words they taught you to recite."

But by the end of his tale, and the truly shocking image of his face, Sansa has found some genuine empathy for Sandor, and most tellingly, reaches out to comfort him. It's a fascinating scene; within this short span she moves from being terrified of him to actually no longer being afraid for herself, but for this big hulking terror! It's the first time (of many) that we see the impact the Hound is going to have on Sansa. Bringing her out of her comfort zone, and really forcing her, quite literally, to look at the hard truths about life in general.

[1234567]

Wolves are not dogs and are much more dangerous in terms of temperament and behaviour. Even grown men back off from Lady.

Sansa's testimony would have made no difference whatsoever, because even though Joff was at fault, Arya's wolf bit him. Cersei wanted vengeance. We know from AFFC that Cersei wanted Arya killed or maimed, she fought with Robert about it for hours. Cersei was going to get some sort of vengeance either way. The original wolf pelt she wants is Nymeria's, but when Robert tells her he doesn't want a part of it (basically saying he is not interested in chasing the wolf that bit his son) then Cersei gets even more vindictive.

The difference her telling the truth would have made is to exonerate her sister from Joff's ambush story. Her refusal to testify was a terrible thing to do to her sister. But Lady, like Mycah, were both dead either way.

[Mindrot]

Wolves are not dogs and are much more dangerous in terms of temperament and behaviour. Even grown men back off from Lady.

Sansa's testimony would have made no difference whatsoever, because even though Joff was at fault, Arya's wolf bit him. Cersei wanted vengeance. We know from AFFC that Cersei wanted Arya killed or maimed, she fought with Robert about it for hours. Cersei was going to get some sort of vengeance either way. The original wolf pelt she wants is Nymeria's, but when Robert tells her he doesn't want a part of it (basically saying he is not interested in chasing the wolf that bit his son) then Cersei gets even more vindictive.

The difference her telling the truth would have made is to exonerate her sister from Joff's ambush story. Her refusal to testify was a terrible thing to do to her sister.But Lady, like Mycah, were both dead either way.

I have said it in 3 different posts now: The decision to kill Lady WAS NOT CERSEI'S. It was Roberts. And Robert could be swayed. He most certainly was swayed into killing the wolf by Cersei's jabs at him. People are posting all this evidence about how much Cersei wanted Arya killed, wolves killed, etc etc when that means absolutely nothing. The FACT is that the decision was Roberts, how many times must it be stated?

You cannot sit there and say 100% for sure that no matter what Sansa said her wolf was dead, no one except maybe GRRM could say that.

THE FACT remains that Sansa chose to lie, and that FACT puts culpability upon her. Had she chosen to tell the truth, and then Robert ordered the death of the wolves anyway, then fine, she has no blame. HOWEVER THAT IS NOT WHAT HAPPENED.

Sansa is not directly responsible for the death of her wolf, but she bears some of the blame because of her actions. There is no getting around this FACT. Saying that Lady was dead no matter what is false, no matter how vindictive and cunning Cersei is, THE DECISION WAS ROBERTS.

[headtrip_honey]

I have said it in 3 different posts now: The decision to kill Lady WAS NOT CERSEI'S. It was Roberts. And Robert could be swayed. He most certainly was swayed into killing the wolf by Cersei's jabs at him. People are posting all this evidence about how much Cersei wanted Arya killed, wolves killed, etc etc when that means absolutely nothing. The FACT is that the decision was Roberts, how many times must it be stated?

You cannot sit there and say 100% for sure that no matter what Sansa said her wolf was dead, no one except maybe GRRM could say that.

THE FACT remains that Sansa chose to lie, and that FACT puts culpability upon her. Had she chosen to tell the truth, and then Robert ordered the death of the wolves anyway, then fine, she has no blame. HOWEVER THAT IS NOT WHAT HAPPENED.

Sansa is not directly responsible for the death of her wolf, but she bears some of the blame because of her actions. There is no getting around this FACT. Saying that Lady was dead no matter what is false, no matter how vindictive and cunning Cersei is, THE DECISION WAS ROBERTS.

You keep saying that the decision was Robert's, and you're correct. It was. And he was cowardly. And guess what? Ned tried to sway him. "Robert, you cannot mean this. Please, Robert, for the love you bore my sister. Please." But STILL Robert cowed to Cersei.

And would have no matter what Sansa said.

Especially since what Sansa said had absolutely nothing to do with Lady. Even if she had related the story in entirety, it would still have been shown that Nymeria attacked Joff. In defense of Arya, yes, who, by the way, escaped unscathed. And guess what? Nymeria was wild and uncontrollable, much like her owner. Cersei would have argued that any dispute between Arya and Joff might end with Nymeria attacking him.

Even LADY scares grown men when her owner isn't even physically threatened.

Your desire to keep pinning the blame of a beloved pet's death on an eleven year old girl is disgusting.

[Solaris]

:agree:

[OnionAhaiReborn]

Especially since what Sansa said had absolutely nothing to do with Lady. Even if she had related the story in entirety, it would still have been shown that Nymeria attacked Joff. In defense of Arya, yes, who, by the way, escaped unscathed. And guess what? Nymeria was wild and uncontrollable, much like her owner. Cersei would have argued that any dispute between Arya and Joff might end with Nymeria attacking him.

Neither Arya nor Nymeria were wild and uncontrollable. Arya tried to protect her friend Mycah, and Nymeria tried to protect Arya. Nymeria was doing essentially the same thing that Summer did for Bran/Catelyn. We agree that a wolf can't tell the difference between the Crown Prince and a person of lower birth, yes? Damning Arya and Nymeria will not exonerate Sansa.

[headtrip_honey]

Neither Arya nor Nymeria were wild and uncontrollable. Arya tried to protect her friend Mycah, and Nymeria tried to protect Arya. Nymeria was doing essentially the same thing that Summer did for Bran/Catelyn. We agree that a wolf can't tell the difference between the Crown Prince and a person of lower birth, yes? Damning Arya and Nymeria will not exonerate Sansa.

I'm not "damning" them. I'm stating what happened. Arya attacked the crown prince. In defense of her friend, which is laudable, but that is a CRIME and she should have known it. Nymeria attacked the prince in defense of her owner, which I personally am FINE with (I love dogs and pets in general which is why this is such a sore topic for me), but that was also a CRIME. Even in today's world dogs get put down for biting people.

My point is, no matter the circumstance behind the attack, Cersei would have demanded the wolf's death because it attacked the prince. She doesn't care about context. Do you think the royal guards cared about the Flea Bottom peasants' legitimate complaints? No, they cut them down for merely THROWING SHIT at the crown prince.

So therefore, Cersei would have demanded the death of Nymeria no matter how truthful Sansa was, and when Nymeria was not to be found, she would have wanted Lady instead. And Robert would have been too weak to say no.

That is ALL I am trying to say.

JFC, I LIKE Arya. I was GLAD she attacked Joffrey. But it was still wild and out of control.

[Gingerly Grumkin]

So... crazy thought? And im not one to belive in a higher power, but perhaps the Old Gods killed Lady so Bran can wake up? if Lady's death was so inevitable...

[Gingerly Grumkin]

So... crazy thought? And im not one to belive in a higher power, but perhaps the Old Gods killed Lady so Bran can wake up? if Lady's death was so inevitable...

oh shit! that means that she aint a real stark which meens LF is... oh shit i hope im wrong

[headtrip_honey]

oh shit! that means that she aint a real stark which meens LF is... oh shit i hope im wrong

NO. Just no.

The whole "lady dies and bran wakes up" thing was only in the show.

Sansa looks just like Cat and if you're implying that LF is her dad, then the text says otherwise. Cat states that she didn't see Petyr in between his duel with Brandon and her going to Kings Landing.

[Gingerly Grumkin]

NO. Just no.

The whole "lady dies and bran wakes up" thing was only in the show.

Sansa looks just like Cat and if you're implying that LF is her dad, then the text says otherwise. Cat states that she didn't see Petyr in between his duel with Brandon and her going to Kings Landing.

really i thought it was in the book also, i could be wrong. and if Cat cheated on Ned, she would lie

[1234567]

So... crazy thought? And im not one to belive in a higher power, but perhaps the Old Gods killed Lady so Bran can wake up? if Lady's death was so inevitable...

I will have to check the books, but the TV series sort of made that connection as after Lady's death Bran opens his eyes. I think the death of Sansa's wolf is significant.

The first time I read the book I was like, oh she is so doomed to die now, but I not sure about that anymore. She does lose her wolf link though early on and that must mean something: as stated Robert says get her a dog, she'll be happier for it. This will probably come up in later chapter analysis, but there does seem to be a link between the times she wishes for Lady to be there and the sudden appearance or memory of Sandor is just after it. Hopefully analysisng the chapters step by step will lead to asking if that is coincidence or a part of the plot.

@ Mindrot

Lady was never under threat. Had she been and indeed if Sansa was aware how grave the situation was, she may have acted differently. Neither her or Arya had faced a situation like this before or this level of fear and hostility.

Cersei demanding Lady's death was completely out of left field and Robert was a complete and awful coward. It's the adults that are to blame, not the 11 year old or 9 year old girls!

Sansa is guilty of not backing up her sister and it's her she should apologise too. But Lady's death was a power play between Robert and Cersei. Good Lord we find out in ACOK that Joff had a pet fawn of Tommen's killed and skinned to make him a leather jerkin. Cersei wanted her revenge and a wolf pelt, it was only Ned who stopped her getting that as well.

[headtrip_honey]

really i thought it was in the book also, i could be wrong. and if Cat cheated on Ned, she would lie

Um, this is in Cat's head. Not said out loud to Ned. So, no need to lie to herself.

[Natalia Borgia]

Sansa wanted to tell Robert about her father leaving. Too bad he was dying ( or was he still hunting at that point) but even so if Robert had not been a drunk old sot Sansa was courageous enough to think of approaching him instead of Cersei. if she would have told Robert instead of Cersei the whole series may have changed as Ned would have had to tell Robert why he was leaving and may have gotten him out of the woods near the boar.

[Gingerly Grumkin]

Well she has to belive in the old gods thou, she is the most religous out of the starks. well Brans a tree so maybe he takes the cake. But Lady's death means sompthing about the old gods. everything about them are old gods related. which unlike the 7 or greyjoy god we know its real

[Gingerly Grumkin]

Um, this is in Cat's head. Not said out loud to Ned. So, no need to lie to herself.

hmmm in AGOT? if so ill check 2night otherwise i have to take your word

[headtrip_honey]

Sansa wanted to tell Robert about her father leaving. Too bad he was dying ( or was he still hunting at that point) but even so if Robert had not been a drunk old sot Sansa was courageous enough to think of approaching him instead of Cersei. if she would have told Robert instead of Cersei the whole series may have changed as Ned would have had to tell Robert why he was leaving and may have gotten him out of the woods near the boar.

:agree:

I'm really terribly confused about the timeline around Robert's death/Ned's arrest. Though maybe it will become clearer when we get to that chapter.

[headtrip_honey]

hmmm in AGOT? if so ill check 2night otherwise i have to take your word

::clears throat::

She had seen men practice at their swordplay near every day of her life, had viewed half a hundred tourneys in her time, but this was something different and deadlier: a dance where the smallest misstep meant death. And as she watched, the memory of another duel in another time came back to Catelyn Stark, as vivid as if it had been yesterday.

They met in the lower bailey of Riverrun. When Brandon saw that Petyr wore only helm and breastplate and mail, he took off most of his armor. Petyr had begged her for a favor he might wear, but she had turned him away. Her lord father promised her to Brandon Stark, and so it was to him that she gave her token, a pale blue handscarf she had embroidered with the leaping trout of Riverrun. As she pressed it into his hand, she pleaded with him. “He is only a foolish boy, but I have loved him like a brother. It would grieve me to see him die.” And her betrothed looked at her with the cool grey eyes of a Stark and promised to spare the boy who loved her.

That fight was over almost as soon as it began. Brandon was a man grown, and he drove Littlefinger all the way across the bailey and down the water stair, raining steel on him with every step, until the boy was staggering and bleeding from a dozen wounds. “Yield!” he called, more than once, but Petyr would only shake his head and fight on, grimly. When the river was lapping at their ankles, Brandon finally ended it, with a brutal backhand cut that bit through Petyr’s rings and leather into the soft flesh below the ribs, so deep that Catelyn was certain that the wound was mortal. He looked at her as he fell and murmured “Cat” as the bright blood came flowing out between his mailed fingers. She thought she had forgotten that.

That was the last time she had seen his face … until the day she was brought before him in King’s Landing.

A fortnight passed before Littlefinger was strong enough to leave Riverrun, but her lord father forbade her to visit him in the tower where he lay abed. Lysa helped their maester nurse him; she had been softer and shyer in those days. Edmure had called on him as well, but Petyr had sent him away. Her brother had acted as Brandon’s squire at the duel, and Littlefinger would not forgive that. As soon as he was strong enough to be moved, Lord Hoster Tully sent Petyr Baelish away in a closed litter, to finish his healing on the Fingers, upon the windswept jut of rock where he’d been born.

George R. R. Martin’s A Game of Thrones (pp. 448-449). Bantam. Kindle Edition.

[Gingerly Grumkin]

lol thnx/sry, your hilarious