From Pawn to Player? Rereading Sansa

[ElizaMartell]

Does no one share my belief that LF is in love? Pyter is a dick who must die for what he did to Ned. But he was in love with Cat and he is clearly in love with Sansa

LF being in love with Sansa would make the situation a lot more creepy than it already is, and its tipping the creepy scale already. :stillsick:

[the Scorpion Knight]

Does no one share my belief that LF is in love? Pyter is a dick who must die for what he did to Ned. But he was in love with Cat and he is clearly in love with Sansa

he doesn't know what love is

[brashcandy]

Been lurking for a little while, but I thought what better place to jump in than with a reread on Sansa, my favorite character? So often is Sansa polarized or pitted against Arya in a contest of "good/bad sister." I feel like, throughout the series, GRRM wrote their journeys to be quite similar. There are a lot of external/situational and topical personality differences, but underneath it all, I think they're largely the same. They both start the story as naive and unequipped to handle new realities at King's Landing, and currently they both feel trapped and resigned in their respective states as fugitives. They've both given up their names as well, which is something that Bran, for example, hasn't done.

Personally, I think this chapter exemplifies Arya's naivete more than Sansa's (though hers will come soon.) Arya's used to running wild at Winterfell, for getting dirty, riding horses, tearing clothing, even when, presumably, her mother and septa aren't pleased about it. That behavior hasn't been curbed, and Arya makes no effort to act in the "proper" manner with people who aren't her family, the Lannisters et. al. Even Ned, in a later chapter, explains to her why she needs to change. (I wish he'd been more forthcoming with Sansa as well, alas.)

Arya attacked Joffrey because she was used to Winterfell. In Winterfell, Joff would have been properly chastised for bullying the butcher's boy (though Arya may also have been chastised for getting involved.) Standing up for Mycah was the "honorable" thing to do...but honor is not always wise. (Personally, I'm in the camp that Joffrey was too much of a coward to kill a boy on his own before he was king/knew there'd be no consequences for him, but that's neither here nor there.) Ned, Sansa and Arya are all punished for doing the "honorable" thing where the Lannisters have the power.

Sansa is a young girl growing up to enjoy the things that are expected of her--royal carriage rides, being betrothed, "loving" her betrothed on the basis of the songs she reveres, which is probably her most naive attribute in this chapter, but, like Arya, the mistake of a child who does not understand the world outside her own door. This entire chapter was about Sansa stepping out of her comfort zone-- a completely unescorted day with Joffrey in foreign territory, more wine than she was used to, etc. From the moment she hears the slaps of Arya and Mycah's wooden sticks she wants to go back. Other than Arya being being "unruly," she's unused to the situation in front of her and frightened when Joff draws Mycah's blood. She does what she's used to; she stays out of it. For all intents and purposes, even if she knew how the fight started, it all went down pretty fast. I think her line about "stop it, both of you, you're spoiling it!" shows how little she understands the situation. At Winterfell she's used to Arya being "willful" and maybe her brothers rough-housing, but nothing so serious. She just wants everyone to stop and act with civility, as she enjoys/ has been taught (and as Ned, ultimately, seems to agree with.)

When she told the king she didn't remember who started the fight, I think this was her way of continuing to remain neutral in the hopes that the problem would just go away (or, perhaps, it could be the start of her repressing certain memories.) There's no way she could have guessed that Lady would be killed; that's not how Ned would have handled the situation, since he spoke out against it, especially. Sansa losing Lady was a travesty, even worse of one than most readers may have guessed in aGoT. Grieving the loss of this very important animal she turned to blaming Arya over Cersei. Why? Because it was easier. She was still engaged to Joff, expecting to live with him in King's Landing for most of her life. Quite a long time to harbor bitterness against her good mother, who has no reason to take that kindly. Arya and Sansa, on the other hand, have always fought, and yet they've always had someone like Ned or Septa Mordane reminding them at the end of the day that they're sisters. I imagine there will be more details about this in future reread chapters; looking forward to it!

Welcome to the board, and this particular thread, Chavalah. I really enjoyed reading your post and just wanted to comment on that quote you highlighted when Sansa admonishes Joffrey and Arya, telling them that they were "spoiling it". The "it" not referring simply to the nice day that she was having, but to the larger idealistic construct that she had made of her world. In this kind of fairytale, violent and unpleasant things do not happen, Princes don't bleed and wolves don't attack. So Sansa's dreams were shattered that day, not completely, but it was the beginning of the gradual unravelling and destruction of a lot of them.

Hope to see you back when the next chapter is posted tomorrow!

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

Does no one share my belief that LF is in love? Pyter is a dick who must die for what he did to Ned. But he was in love with Cat and he is clearly in love with Sansa

He's "in love" (as much as you can call obsessive infatuation "love") with Cat, and is transferring his affections to Sansa. He has no real interest in her as a person, only in how she fills the role that Cat never did.

I agree more with Ndrew than headtrip on this one. That is, I think that Petyr is obsessed with Sansa and to him that's as close as he'll get to "love" now. It's actually rather sad, because I believe that once Peytr was capable of real love, before he was rejected as a teenager. In my opinion it doesn't really matter whether his obsession is partly transferred from his previous obsession with Cat. There are lots of messed up reasons that people in the asoiaf world "fall for" people, and I don't see why so many people find this mode as somehow less authentic than others. Sandor, who is also romantically obsessed with Sansa is an interesting comparison. That guy has no idea what love is. He knows how to hurt things, and that's pretty much it. Therefore his response to his growing obsession is verbal assaults and threats of physical violence. Petyr's approach likewise fits his personality - his reaction to romantic obsession is to try to control and manipulate his target.

Anyway, I don't find Petyr's obessesion with Sansa to be particualrly awful or more creepy in and of itself than Jorah or Sandor (that is all three of them are slightly pederastic what with going after barely pubescent veunerable young women). Nor do I think that Petyr's feelings are less "genuine" somehow than e.g. Sandor's. What is awful about Littlefinger (and why I absolutely loathe him) is what he does as a reaction to those feelings. He grooms Sansa, watching her and controlling her every move carefully. He manipulates her into becoming completely dependent on him. Meanwhile he performs evil deeds and implicates Sansa in these actions, so that she cannot escape him without risking her own life. He is also trying to turn her into himself - to corrupt whatever innocence she still has completely. Once he thinks he has reached that point, he will try to sleep with her.

I think what he'll find at that moment is that she is still a Stark of Winterfell.

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

The purpose of this thread is to do a reread of the character Sansa and examine each chapter chronologically. There may be times when other character's chapters (such as Ned's are relevant and will be covered) development and future events will be relevant to the thread (see the comparisons between the development of Sansa and Cersei).

I note a few of you are having a heated LF, Lysa , Moondoor discussion, which is wonderful, but can we maybe wait until we have got to the relevant chapter to discuss it, otherwise this will just become another Sansa discussion thread instead of a systematic analysis of her character arc.

By reviewing her character chapter by chapter, we may have better insights into her later actions.

Alright. I will step aside so the focus can go back to the reread.

[Natalia Borgia]

I LOVE Sansa and her growth as a player is imminent. I am not sure what will happen to creepy LF but she is learning the game from a master player who has gone from a small lord to the seat of the Vale all with the goodwill of the Lannisters and Tyrells ( he told them Joff was a creep) and brokered the alliance between Highgarden and Casterly Rock. No one in the series realizes how much he has manipulated the game ( except UnCat). She will be a master player and a better queen than Whiny ( sorry Dany) could ever hope to be.

[Natalia Borgia]

I LOVE Sansa and her growth as a player is imminent. I am not sure what will happen to creepy LF but she is learning the game from a master player who has gone from a small lord to the seat of the Vale all with the goodwill of the Lannisters and Tyrells ( he told them Joff was a creep) and brokered the alliance between Highgarden and Casterly Rock. No one in the series realizes how much he has manipulated the game ( except UnCat). She will be a master player and a better queen than Whiny ( sorry Dany) could ever hope to be.

Sorry in GoT we see her innocence lost and her learning to lie with finesse by the end.

[1234567]

Alright. I will step aside so the focus can go back to the reread.

No I didn't mean for everyone to step aside, I just don't want everyone getting ahead of themselves. The point of a re-read is to really focus on one character's arc for the purpose of seeming their development more clearly. We are meant to be discussing the character within each relevant chapter. She hasn't met LF in her first chapter.

Edit: Rather than discussing points with preconceived ideas, we can look at the character from the beginning of the story, but with the benefit of hindsight. In fact although both Brashcandy and I will be giving Chapter Summaries and Analysis, it would be good if those interested in the thread, also reread the relevant chapters at the same time.

[brashcandy]

I agree more with Ndrew than headtrip on this one. That is, I think that Petyr is obsessed with Sansa and to him that's as close as he'll get to "love" now. It's actually rather sad, because I believe that once Peytr was capable of real love, before he was rejected as a teenager. In my opinion it doesn't really matter whether his obsession is partly transferred from his previous obsession with Cat. There are lots of messed up reasons that people in the asoiaf world "fall for" people, and I don't see why so many people find this mode as somehow less authentic than others. Sandor, who is also romantically obsessed with Sansa is an interesting comparison. That guy has no idea what love is. He knows how to hurt things, and that's pretty much it. Therefore his response to his growing obsession is verbal assaults and threats of physical violence. Petyr's approach likewise fits his personality - his reaction to romantic obsession is to try to control and manipulate his target.

Anyway, I don't find Petyr's obessesion with Sansa to be particualrly awful or more creepy in and of itself than Jorah or Sandor (that is all three of them are slightly pederastic what with going after barely pubescent veunerable young women). Nor do I think that Petyr's feelings are less "genuine" somehow than e.g. Sandor's. What is awful about Littlefinger (and why I absolutely loathe him) is what he does as a reaction to those feelings. He grooms Sansa, watching her and controlling her every move carefully. He manipulates her into becoming completely dependent on him. Meanwhile he performs evil deeds and implicates Sansa in these actions, so that she cannot escape him without risking her own life. He is also trying to turn her into himself - to corrupt whatever innocence she still has completely. Once he thinks he has reached that point, he will try to sleep with her.

I think what he'll find at that moment is that she is still a Stark of Winterfell.

Littlefinger places absolutely no value on Sansa, the person, outside of her beauty and resemblance to her mother. He's currently enjoying not only manipulating, but molesting her, and basically kidnapped her for his own machinations. There is nothing I find "genuine" or even remotely redeeming about this man's treatment of Sansa.

No I didn't mean for everyone to step aside, I just don't want everyone getting ahead of themselves. The point of a re-read is to really focus on one character's arc for the purpose of seeming their development more clearly. We are meant to be discussing the character within each relevant chapter. She hasn't met LF in her first chapter.

Edit: Rather than discussing points with preconceived ideas, we can look at the character from the beginning of the story, but with the benefit of hindsight. In fact although both Brashcandy and I will be giving Chapter Summaries and Analysis, it would be good if those interested in the thread, also reread the relevant chapters at the same time.

Yes, that would be a good idea. It's always tempting to get ahead of the chapters, and it's not always possible not to :) but keeping discussion of later points to a minimum would be best.

[Gingerly Grumkin]

i dont wanna get yelled at http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/61053-baelish-oh-baelish-wherefore-art-thou-lf/page__fromsearch__1

[Wolf Maid]

I disagree. The last we see of Sansa's POV, as far as this debacle goes, is when she is off to find help for Joff. There are several intervening days between that, and when Arya is found and Mycah killed. We have no idea whether she suffered anxiety and fear over where her sister was, if she was okay or even alive. And we also don't have her POV on what she thought of Joff's behavior.

To play Devil's Advocate a bit, let's play the whole scene from inside Sansa's head (something I frankly don't feel GRRM did a very good job of). You are a romantic preteen girl, walking along with your first major crush, trying to impress him and not make a fool of yourself, because you have absolutely no experience with boys. Suddenly you come upon your sister, whose behavior is usually an embarrassment (to an image-conscious preteen), doing the most unimaginably embarrassing thing possible: play-swordfighting with someone completely unsuitable in terms of station to be a playmate. You realize that Dreamboat next to you is seeing this too, and may be judging you accordingly.

Suddenly Dreamboat is coming to your sister's "defense," and a way for this to be salvaged comes to mind. Perhaps Dreamboat will see this as the boy's fault and not some colossal and possibly genetic failing. Then things are turned on their head again as your own sister commits a capital crime - she strikes the crown prince.

Now everything is REALLY upside down. You are concerned for Dreamboat, who after all only thought he was protecting your spazzy little sister. You are also terrified for said spazzy little sister, who is obviously completely oblivious that she has just committed a major crime, and promptly vanishes. You are left with Dreamboat, and behave in what you have been taught is the proper manner ...kind and helpful and solicitous. And suddenly Dreamboat turns into Nightmare and yells at you.

I would be absolutely baffled and confused as well. And three days of terror over your sister's fate and worry about the situation with Dreamboat does not help compose you any.

I believe that Sansa would have been worried about Arya, as well as angry with her, but we don't know for sure because that part is not told from her POV. I also disagree that Sansa's feelings about Joff do not begin to change as a result of this incident. She is markedly antsy about it the next time she has to speak to him, scared of how he will act. He does charm her back at that point, but IMO little things from then on show that she does not ever see him as Dreamboat again. Her focus instead turns to the idea of being princess and someday queen.

IMO Arya's hatred of the Lannisters after this, and Sansa's continued acceptance, is not the result of stupidity on her part. She started off from a position of being bedazzled by them; Arya started off utterly indifferent. Sansa, the idealist, is able to rationalize away the Lannisters' behavior, while Arya the realist sees it for what it is. It is simply a matter of coming from two totally different places and totally different personalities and goals, that the two end up at such opposite places in their view of what "really" happened. Sansa believes her future is with these people, so in her mind, there is no choice but to blame Arya and her father for the whole thing. It certainly will not help her betrothal (which I honestly think it never even crossed her mind could be broken) for her to hate her betrothed or his family.

Yeah, that would all be understandable except for the part you skipped, where he tried to kill her sister. I don’t care who it is, crush, boyfriend or husband, I would never stand idly by while they tried to kill one of my siblings and I would certainly never defend them afterwards or lie to cover it up. After seeing him do that, he would immediately cease to be any type of “dreamboat” for me. I would not be concerned at all about the health of anyone who had tried to kill my little sister. The only thing at that moment that would concern me is helping her get to safety, not getting help for the person who just tried to kill her.

Also, she wasn’t too flustered when Arya got the sword and she was screaming at her to leave Joffrey alone. She never once told Joffrey to leave Arya alone while he was swinging it at her; the only thing she was whining about then was her day being ruined, even after noting the fear in her sister’s eyes. There is no excuse for that.

There is also no excuse for lying after the fact. She continued to tell people that Mycah attacked Joffrey, after the poor kid was already dead, knowing that that was not the truth. First she claimed that she didn’t remember, and then she told people that Mycah attacked Joffrey, which also contradicts her sister’s story.

Also, as to not having her point of view, most of this happened in her point of view. She spends most of the point of view criticizing Arya's actions and even criticizing Ned for not reprimanding Arya, because she had the gall to pick flowers for him, but she has not one negative thought towards Joffrey while he is trying to kill her sister. She even goes on to help him afterwards. To me that says something about her character. She had no use for her family until she found out she had no one else on her side.

That's why I never felt bad for her losing her wolf. I felt bad for the wolf, that it had to be killed, but never for her. Wolf packs are supposed to defend each other and protect each other. She didn’t do that for her sister, so she lost her wolf. To me, that seems right.

[Gingerly Grumkin]

harsh. lol. For sure thou, thats why when i think of Sansa its always after ned dies

[headtrip_honey]

Yeah, that would all be understandable except for the part you skipped, where he tried to kill her sister. I don’t care who it is, crush, boyfriend or husband, I would never stand idly by while they tried to kill one of my siblings and I would certainly never defend them afterwards or lie to cover it up. After seeing him do that, he would immediately cease to be any type of “dreamboat” for me. I would not be concerned at all about the health of anyone who had tried to kill my little sister. The only thing at that moment that would concern me is helping her get to safety, not getting help for the person who just tried to kill her.

Also, she wasn’t too flustered when Arya got the sword and she was screaming at her to leave Joffrey alone. She never once told Joffrey to leave Arya alone while he was swinging it at her; the only thing she was whining about then was her day being ruined, even after noting the fear in her sister’s eyes. There is no excuse for that.

Wow, aren't you a bucket of sunshine?

To clarify, Arya hit THE CROWN PRINCE so badly that his head was "all bloody", and THEN threw a rock at his head. What do you think would have happened to Arya if she hadn't stopped her attack? If she had used the sword?

Dead, that's what. As it was Cersei had given Jaime orders to chop Arya's hand off JUST for attacking Joff. I would have been screaming at Arya to stop too.

The fact that you have no pity for an 11 year old who was scared and confused says loads.

[David Selig]

Yeah, that would all be understandable except for the part you skipped, where he tried to kill her sister.

That's far from clear. Joff was slashing his sword at Arya, true, but it's debatable whether he was so lost in his rage as to kill someone with Arya's rank or still had some self-control and just wanted to teach her a lesson by beating her up with the dull side of the sword. Back then he wasn't nearly as out of control as he became later on.

[Wolf Maid]

Wow, aren't you a bucket of sunshine?

To clarify, Arya hit THE CROWN PRINCE so badly that his head was "all bloody", and THEN threw a rock at his head. What do you think would have happened to Arya if she hadn't stopped her attack? If she had used the sword?

Dead, that's what. As it was Cersei had given Jaime orders to chop Arya's hand off JUST for attacking Joff. I would have been screaming at Arya to stop too.

The fact that you have no pity for an 11 year old who was scared and confused says loads.

If you still like her in spite of her not protecting her sister, that is fine, but don't pretend that that was for Arya's benefit. It was not. If she had really cared about her sister's safety, she would have been trying to help her get out of there and get her to safety, not helping the person who just tried to kill her. She also would not have lied about what happened and she also would not have blamed Arya and not the Joffrey, who started the whole thing. This was long after she was supposedly scared and confused.

[headtrip_honey]

That's far from clear. Joff was slashing his sword at Arya, true, but it's debatable whether he was so lost in his rage as to kill someone with Arya's rank or still had some self-control and just wanted to teach her a lesson by beating her up with the dull side of the sword. Back then he wasn't nearly as out of control as he became later on.

I'd like to note that Joff came out of the fight far worse than Arya. Bloody head, torn up arm. Arya, best we can tell, had no scratches on her.

Ugh I hate to sound like I'm defending Joff because I am not but Arya could have killed the crown prince.

[headtrip_honey]

If you still like her in spite of her not protecting her sister, that is fine, but don't pretend that that was for Arya's benefit. It was not. If she had really cared about her sister's safety, she would have been trying to help her get out of there and get her to safety, not helping the person who just tried to kill her. She also would not have lied about what happened and she also would not have blamed Arya and not the Joffrey, who started the whole thing. This was long after she was supposedly scared and confused.

So, appropriate punishment for poor judgment while under the influence and eleven is the execution of a beloved pet?

Right then.

[Lemon Cake]

So, appropriate punishment for poor judgment while under the influence and eleven is the execution of a beloved pet?

Right then.

I know, right? Blows my mind that anyone could think that.

[Wolf Maid]

That's far from clear. Joff was slashing his sword at Arya, true, but it's debatable whether he was so lost in his rage as to kill someone with Arya's rank or still had some self-control and just wanted to teach her a lesson by beating her up with the dull side of the sword. Back then he wasn't nearly as out of control as he became later on.

What exactly do you think would have happened if he had hit her with the sword he had just used to slash Mycah's face. It was not a dull sword. The only reason he did not hit her was because she was dodging him and then Nymeria came.

[Gingerly Grumkin]

She deserved to get punished, maybe not kill Lady, but the connection that Wolfmaid made (lol) about sticking with your pack. Bravo. You know neither sister apologized