From Pawn to Player? Rereading Sansa

[iamb]

I do think so. She is resentful in her opening chapter towards Sansa for always doing everything right and impressing everyone. Obviously she doesn't hate her sister, but I do wonder if her refusal to attend the Queen's outing had more to do with spiting Sansa than actually wanting to go exploring with Mycah?

It's certainly plausible. IIRC, in her opening chapter, Arya is frustrated to (or near to) tears for not being on par with Sansa as far as needlework, looks, ability to please others, etc. I think it ends with her storming out of the room upon incurring the criticisms of Septa Mordane.

I agree that Arya does not hate Sansa, and it appears that both of them are frustrated by the differences between themselves. Each of them has their own ways to express or act out on these frustrations.

[headtrip_honey]

Oh, real quick note:

Re: Renly and Barristan's interaction - I never saw it as them lobbing insults. I saw it as good-natured ribbing between people who knew each other well. ::shrugs::

[brashcandy]

Oh, real quick note:

Re: Renly and Barristan's interaction - I never saw it as them lobbing insults. I saw it as good-natured ribbing between people who knew each other well. ::shrugs::

It seems to be a little of both IMO. I didn't sense that they actively disliked one another at all, and it was teasing in nature, but still there was an undercurrent in their comments that suggested these two could be at odds in the future. Sansa handles it remarkably well though. :)

[brashcandy]

Nice idea for a thread.

I like the way this chapter makes clear that while Sansa is really naive and dreamy, she's not stupid. When it was something related to her interests, she was pretty quick to figure who Renly and Baristan were, especially given how afraid she was by Ser Illin, and made very good first impression on them.

Arya is somewhat of a brat here - when the queen invites you, you are supposed to go, that's basic protocol, even 8 years old should know that when they are of such high birth. Why anger the queen unnecessary?

Best line of the chapter, BTW, as usual from the Hound - when someone asked about the direwolves -“The Starks use them for wet nurses” .

Agreed. Arya's refusal was really pushing it in terms of breaking protocol, and I did sympathise with Sansa's frustration in the chapter. The Hound of course gets all the best lines, although that one was snarky to poor Sansa.

[Lemon Cake]

Best line of the chapter, BTW, as usual from the Hound - when someone asked about the direwolves -“The Starks use them for wet nurses” .

Heh. I always feel so torn about this line. On one hand, it's kind of hilarious. On the other hand, way to make fun of the terrified little girl who's all alone in a crowd of strangers and to get everyone else laughing at her too, Sandor! He's such an ass. And I say that with the utmost affection, naturally. ;)

[Reeahlia Sand]

I am not going to pretend I enjoyed or even liked reading Sansa's POVs, but I don't blame Sansa for what Joff or Cersei or anyone else has done. Sansa is very young and could have never imagined people are capable of such cruelty. But she has definitely learned from her experiences and she should be praised for it.

[Fey]

I love the idea for the thread! I don't have the time to reread the books right now, but have wanted to go over Sansa's chapters, especially in GoT. I hated her in GoT, until her final chapter, and want to see how I would now view her chapters earlier in the book.

I think people who blame Sansa for being stupid or naive are being far too hard on her. Her whole life she had been taught how to become a proper lady, and she had been told countless stories of beautiful princesses being swept away by their dashingly handsome princes. These stories ended up giving her unrealistic views on life, like how good looking people = good and kind people, and so on. She basically began viewing her life as one of the many stories and believed that her life would be very similar to those princesses in the stories. Can you blame her? She's beautiful (and has probably never been told otherwise) and has had nothing really awful happen to her. She has, really, been spoiled, which isn't her fault at all. Is it her fault that she wasn't told of the harsher realities of life? Is it her fault that people only ever told her the good things about life? Sansa really is the product of what people have made her.

This is part of the reason I felt so bad for her at the end of GoT, and at many other points (being wed to an Imp, not actually being rescued and sent home, etc.). Basically everything she's been told her entire life has been one huge lie. Obviously, she can't quickly recover from this, but I definitely think she is starting to tap into her more intelligent side, now that she's accepted that her life is not like the princesses she's heard all about.

[Queensmoot]

Agreed. I've always found Sansa compelling and I'm very excited about this re-read.

I think that she saw Joff as her "job" as it were. She's been raised to believe that she must be courteous, beautiful and charming in order to attract a high born husband. Once she gets one she must make him happy because her safety depends on him. If she displeases her husband her life could be made very unpleasant. So she sees her primary goal as making Joff happy as soon as they are betrothed. She tries to make it romantic in her head but it's ultimately pragmatic.

In a way she reminds me a lot of Allison Bree's character on Community - Annie. When things don't go her way or she needs to face a harsh truth (like Joff being a sadistic prick) she just shakes her head and refuses to believe it. Her growth into a smart, pragmatic and effective young woman is one of my favorite (though incomplete) journeys of the series.

Thanks for doing this thread guys! Great idea!

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

Heh. I always feel so torn about this line. On one hand, it's kind of hilarious. On the other hand, way to make fun of the terrified little girl who's all alone in a crowd of strangers and to get everyone else laughing at her too, Sandor! He's such an ass. And I say that with the utmost affection, naturally. ;)

Actually, he did stop them from continuing freaking out about Lady.

[Grip]

I like this idea, Sansa is one of my favorite POV and especially since she got to the Vale..And yeah I to like the Barristan/Renly interaction and how Sansa handles it.

[1234567]

AGOT – Sansa I Summary The chapter begins with Sansa at breakfast and feeding her direwolf, Lady, under the table. Septa Mordane is unhappy about this, and comments that when it comes to Lady, Sansa is just “as wilful” as her sister Arya.

The interesting point about this aside from her connection with her Wolf, is that it is a sign that Sansa is beginning to express a little teenage rebellion, whilst also highlighting that Arya is able to rebel quite often without any dire consequences.

She thinks she is in love with Joffrey, even though she doesn’t know him well.

I think even at this stage in the narrative the parallel arcs of Sansa and Cersei are being established and IMHO the stage is being set for Sansa to be the younger Queen from the Maggy the Frog Prophecy.

Compare Sansa’s “love” for Joffery with Cersei’s recollections of Rhaegar from AFFC

Cersei

she had drawn a picture of herself flying behind Rhaegar on a dragon, her arms wrapped tight about his chest. When Jaime discovered it she told him it was Queen Alysanne and King Jaehaerys.

Had any man ever been so beautiful?

She was ten when she finally saw her prince.

When she had been presented to him, Cersei had almost drowned in the depths of his sad purple eyes. He has been wounded, she recalled thinking, but I will mend his hurt when we are wed.

The prince is going to be my husband, she had thought, giddy with excitement, and when the old king dies I’ll be Queen.

The text also notes that “Cersei had been so happy that day”, but “her laughter died at tourney’s end.”

Sansa

Her betrothed. Just thinking it made her feel a strange fluttering inside, even though they were not to marry for years and years. Sansa did not really know Joffery yet, but she was already in love with him. He was all she ever dreamt her prince should be.

She gazed at Joffrey worshipfully. He was so gallant, she thought.

Tenderly she reached out and brushed back his soft blond hair.

Sansa has the same excitement as Cersei did over meeting her prince. Both have dreamed about an ideal prince for years. Both also want to comfort them. Both days start out happy and then end by with the path of both girls’ lives changed forever.

This memory of Cersei’s seems to echo the experience of Sansa to a certain degree. She had been promised to marry a prince and her head was full of thoughts of how wonderful and fairytalesque her life was going to be. With only a year between them, it seems to imply that it is normal for high born maids of 10 or 11 to still believe in fairytale ideas and it would only be later that the realities of married life would be explained to them.

In a sidenote, does anyone think it is significant that the Arya/Joff fight happens in exactly the same place as the Rhaegar / Robert fight? Are there implications or foreshadowing involved here?

She compares Joff to two legendary knights here, Serwyn of the Mirror Shield and Prince Aemon the Dragonknight. We will see a later reference to Aemon again, but I was very interested in the reference to Serwyn. He was a member of the KG and according to the Wiki: Hmmm, foreshadowing relating to another member of the Kingsguard perhaps? *coughsandorcough* Also, something to bear in mind about the grand fight in the Eyrie suggested by the prophecy of the girl with purple serpents in her hair slaying the savage giant;

Nice catch on Serwyn. This seems too coincidental not to be involved with the Ghost of High Heart prophecy.

For some reason, I didn’t remember the fight between Joffrey and Arya being as nasty as it really was. Joffrey’s natural cruelty is really shown in the way he treats Mycah, but was Arya right for attacking him? In retrospect, it would have been better for everyone if she had kept her anger down, and had let Joffrey grow tired of tormenting Mycah, but I can understand the rage she felt at Joffrey’s casual wickedness and Mycah’s helplessness.

Indeed the whole fight scene is a lot more brutal than I remembered as well. What is interesting though is Arya does go for Joffery after he cut Mycah’s cheek and that Joffrey did not attack her first, although he had attacked Mycah. Standing up for a victim against a bully is always laudable, however Joff was the Crown Prince. Arya enflamed the whole situation by attacking him.

Whilst a lot of people seem to see Arya as more pragmatic, I would say this chapter also highlights that in her own way Arya was just as naïve as Sansa, because she was also convinced her life would be a fairytale: one that involved fighting and swords and doing as she pleased. (Ironically this has sort of come to pass. ) Sansa gets annoyed that whenever Arya acts in an unladylike manner her father laughs it off and hugs her (and in so doing reaffirms her bratty behaviour). I am always surprised that Ned did not make it more implicit to Arya that she could not act the way she had done at Winterfell when they were in KL or travelling with the King and Queen. If it hadn’t have been for Bran’s fall, I am certain that Cat would have talked to her and Ned about this. Ned is not used to Southron courts, Cat was. Ned’s indulgence of Arya’s wild streak and rebellious nature is one of his failings.

However even when Ned explains to her that one day she will marry and run a household etc, she says that’s Sansa not her. Had life progressed without the War of the Five Kings then Arya too would at some point have had to realise that a marriage would be arranged for her and that she would be expected to be a lady and ladylike.

So I would venture that this chapter highlights that both girls are wildly unrealistic in their dreams for the future.

NB: Don’t know why I never noticed this before Joffrey. Maybe those letters are evil. <_<

Edit: Because half of the page was in Bold!

[brashcandy]

Actually, he did stop them from continuing freaking out about Lady.

Hmmm, this is an interesting take on it that I've never seen before. Sandor diffusing the situation then?

Agreed. I've always found Sansa compelling and I'm very excited about this re-read.

I think that she saw Joff as her "job" as it were. She's been raised to believe that she must be courteous, beautiful and charming in order to attract a high born husband. Once she gets one she must make him happy because her safety depends on him. If she displeases her husband her life could be made very unpleasant. So she sees her primary goal as making Joff happy as soon as they are betrothed. She tries to make it romantic in her head but it's ultimately pragmatic.

I agree. In this initial chapter she is very nervous about appearing stupid in front of Joff, and feels relieved when she answer the identity of Renly. She wants to impress him and seems to feel that she has to "earn" him.

[LuisDantas]

(...) It all seems a little forced to me. I think Arya dislikes Cersei at this point because she represents all that Arya disdains, not that she is somehow more insightful than Sansa is into Cersei's true nature. What do you guys think?

(...)

Yeah, it's clear that for everyone's sake Arya should have bottled her fury, but I'm so torn on the issue because poor Mycah was an innocent and Joff was being a colossal ass. It's clear though, that sometimes it is best to be passive and let an unpleasant situation pass, because reacting to it violently can lead to even bigger problems. This is something Arya needed to learn.

Is it so? I beg to differ.

One of Robert's best qualities, one that Joffrey evidently did not learn well, was refusing to take things far too seriously when such seriousness was not warranted.

Joffrey took far more after Cersei on this. I'm not sure why you disapprove to strongly of her refusal to give terrain to Joffrey on the Mycah incident. It seems to me that things would be far worse if she did bend to his will. Perhaps not immediately, granted, but still.

[LuisDantas]

It seems to be a little of both IMO. I didn't sense that they actively disliked one another at all, and it was teasing in nature, but still there was an undercurrent in their comments that suggested these two could be at odds in the future. Sansa handles it remarkably well though. :)

Yes, she does. But Renly, at least, doesn't seem to dislike Barristan or to expect to be disliked by him. Or at least that was my impression from his mention of Barristan in ACOK.

[The Mother of The Others]

There wasn't quite as much pawn-to-player progress in Feast as maybe one would hope for, but I share the idea that this is what's being done with Sansa. Maybe because the series got longer, we weren't shown much yet. If there's only enough material for a two book arc, then it wasn't time yet. Or there's only one or two major steps in her maturation process, and these are timed to happen with events still in the future. Or.... dun dun dun!----we're wrong about where the character is heading and that's why she's not showing that much progress in the Littlefinger Arts?!?!

[LuisDantas]

(...) I am always surprised that Ned did not make it more implicit to Arya that she could not act the way she had done at Winterfell when they were in KL or travelling with the King and Queen. If it hadn’t have been for Bran’s fall, I am certain that Cat would have talked to her and Ned about this. Ned is not used to Southron courts, Cat was. Ned’s indulgence of Arya’s wild streak and rebellious nature is one of his failings.

However even when Ned explains to her that one day she will marry and run a household etc, she says that’s Sansa not her. Had life progressed without the War of the Five Kings then Arya too would at some point have had to realise that a marriage would be arranged for her and that she would be expected to be a lady and ladylike.

So I would venture that this chapter highlights that both girls are wildly unrealistic in their dreams for the future.

What a contrast to my own reading of the situation. For one thing, I'm not sure Arya would ever enter an arranged marriage, or even be pressured into one by Ned. It doesn't really go well with what I gather of their views on ethics and personal responsibility.

Arya was literally the last in line as inheritor of Winterfell (behind even Rickon). If the Blackfish couldn't be forced to marry, why should her? At least at that point in time, I just don't see Ned planning to tell her that she must marry "according to her station" or some such folly. Not with Robb, Bran, Rickon and Sansa all living and ahead of her as lords and lady in waiting, certainly. And perhaps not even if she were the last living Stark. It is just too much to ask of her, for too dubious a benefit.

[LuisDantas]

There wasn't quite as much pawn-to-player progress in Feast as maybe one would hope for, but I share the idea that this is what's being done with Sansa. Maybe because the series got longer, we weren't shown much yet. If there's only enough material for a two book arc, then it wasn't time yet. Or there's only one or two major steps in her maturation process, and these are timed to happen with events still in the future. Or.... dun dun dun!----we're wrong about where the character is heading and that's why she's not showing that much progress in the Littlefinger Arts?!?!

Or maybe we are supposed to take our time and consider the risks involved and wonder how strongly they will mark Sansa. I've noticed that not too many people are as worried about her mental sanity as I am.

[The Mother of The Others]

Arya doesn't see the appeal of boys yet is all. Her independent fire will remain as she gets older, no doubt, but this vibe we got from her of "I'll never settle down" was just a passing phase, probably. We caught her during that 'year of the tomboy' to start the story, and then she's been so busy just trying to survive ever since that we never got to see how her development would have progressed into a mixture of Sansa traits and tomboy qualities. If there'd been no war, in another couple few years she'd have been like "Damn! That Xander boy's hot. ...Okay, show me how to do that square dance thing again."

Are you worried that Lyssa Tully spent too much time around LF, and she cracked, and now Sansa may be getting too much LF exposure too? Hmmm. If she hasn't cracked by now, she's a tough nut to crack. Caring for SweetRobin would have driven me nuts all by itself, and as far as I can recall her POV is darn calm even with all that and the nervousness of hiding out and the pain of all the junk she's endured.

[LuisDantas]

Are you worried that Lyssa Tully spent too much time around LF, and she cracked, and now Sansa may be getting too much LF exposure too?

Not really. I don't particularly blame LF for Lyssa's mental state, although I don't think he helped at all. I figured that Hoster Tully and her forced marriage were more decisive - and from what we learn by Lysa's own account, that in turn was basically a result from her own mistake, albeit tragically so.

Hmmm. If she hasn't cracked by now, she's a tough nut to crack.

And that is the thing. In AFFC, by my reading, she is visibly cracking, and quite seriously so.

She is keeping herself together externally, but only at the cost of losing herself internally. But I guess this thread will come to that point in due time.

Caring for SweetRobin would have driven me nuts all by itself, and as far as I can recall her POV is darn calm even with all that and the nervousness of hiding out and the pain of all the junk she's endured.

That sort of is the problem. She is making way too many concessions for that darned Petyr Baelish. For one thing, she seems to actually fear being recognized by Bronze Yohn Royce. It is even hinted, if not stated outright, that at that point she may trust Baelish over Royce. Which is a very grave mistake, and she ought to know that well after witnessing what Dontos, Robert Arryn and Lyssa suffered by trusting Baelish. That, by and of itself, is clear evidence to me that Sansa has unfortunately broken.

[PrinceHenryris]

Sansa's heading down 40 miles of bad road.