From Pawn to Player? Rereading Sansa

[brashcandy]

Yeah I agree of course she's not actually vapid and stupid. Though what jumped out at me with the Renly / Barristan thing is that everyone basically reacts like "awww.. look at the cute little girl, she thinks she's clever" *pat head*. That is, Sansa is condescended to by everyone in this scene - it's so very clear by their reactions how glaring Sansa's naivete and "girlishness" is to an outsider. Specifically where and when laughter occurs in the scene. Yes, Sansa's responses to Barristan and Renly show some knowledge of who is who, but in really her courtesies are adorably transparent - almost laughably so - to the experienced players surrounding her (as both the Hound and LF later point out to her).

I think they were charmed by her, especially Barristan, even if there was some mockery involved surrounding her innocence. In this scene she's clearly calling on memory, but later on she does develop this into a talent almost, and it's something I think we'll see her use to her advantage in the upcoming books.

[Starbird]

I sincerely doubt it. What she knows of Petyr is that he is treacherous, dangerous, and a skilled manipulator. Getting away from him should be her main concern now, particularly after she saw how he treated his own accomplices, namely Dontos and Lyssa.

LF killed Dontos because he was no longer useful and Lysa because she stopped playing by LF's rules. Sansa, having witnessed both deaths, knows better than to become a problem. Also, she knows she's LF's weakness and the key to Winterfell. Running away would serve no purpose but to tick him off.

[LuisDantas]

True enough, but that doesn't change the fact that it is dangerous for her to remain in his custody. Nor does it justify what we see of her thoughts, that appears to be signs of deep delusions - in fact, Stockholm Syndrome.

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

I sincerely doubt it. What she knows of Petyr is that he is treacherous, dangerous, and a skilled manipulator. Getting away from him should be her main concern now, particularly after she saw how he treated his own accomplices, namely Dontos and Lyssa.

LF is constantly forcing himself on her and talks about how her mother gave up her virginity to him. It's kinda clear what he wants. And that he'll keep her alive for the time being.

Royce is unknown at this point.

[brashcandy]

Poor Sansa. I wouldn't say she was ever a snob. She was just taught to support the system in which she lived and was raised. She was groomed to be a pleaser, and to represent her House with poise and grace. Sansa got nothing but positive reinforcement for her efforts (her sewing, etc.) whereas Arya's told she's got the hands of a blacksmith. It's interesting that Arya and Sansa both have a gift for talking to people. Sansa uses her talents on members of her class while Arya doesn't.

Well the very definition of snobbery is looking on those down on those you think are your inferiors :) but I'd agree that Sansa's version of it isn't so malicious or designed to hurt. She just thinks that highborn girls should not mix with certain classes of people, and is very aware of the social roles in her society. I don't know if I would say Arya has a gift for talking to people.... hmmmm, maybe, but I'm undecided for now.

I think the 'snob' title is inflicted on Sansa by readers because most readers don't identify with being royalty, or of an extremely elevated social eschelon, which Sansa is. As such, Sansa would not talk to 'us' and Arya would, so Arya's likeable and Sansa's a snob. Maybe? Further, Sansa enjoys things that modern readers would find tedious (hours of sewing, hours of polite chit-chat in a windowless wheelhouse with the queen and princess, close observance of etiquette, etc.) We live in a relaxed society. Arya's relaxed in the extreme (you don't just blow off an invitation from the queen) so she's more relate-able and, as a result, more likable.

I think this portrayal was definitely Martin's intent, although I find it much easier to identify with Sansa than Arya. The whole running off and getting lost for 3 days had me thinking, really??

If Sansa is less snobby now, it's because she's become disenfranchised with the system.

Good point.

[Grail King]

ill say this to be fair: i find her to be a little less stupid in tv series GOT than book GOT,cause they dont mention how she betrayed her dad in the tv show....

And I believe that was intentional, GRRM said he was quite surprised at the hate mail that Sansa generated, I think he felt he made a real naive and innocent character, but most readers took her as a traitor to her family when she went to the Queen telling them they were leaving and that may be why that scene wasn't in the show.

[Starbird]

Well the very definition of snobbery is looking on those down on those you think are your inferiors :) but I'd agree that Sansa's version of it isn't so malicious or designed to hurt. She just thinks that highborn girls should not mix with certain classes of people, and is very aware of the social roles in her society. I don't know if I would say Arya has a gift for talking to people.... hmmmm, maybe, but I'm undecided for now.

I think this portrayal was definitely Martin's intent, although I find it much easier to identify with Sansa than Arya. The whole running off and getting lost for 3 days had me thinking, really??

She doesn't look on her inferiors with disdain. She just recognizes that they're in a different social class. She gets dinged on this most often for thinking of Jon as a bastard but I'd say that's Catelyn's influence.

Arya talks to anyone, according to Sansa. I'm pretty sure there's a reference to Arya talking to all kinds of people as they're making their way down the Kingsroad. She's not shy and she's never really restrained from doing anything so she socializes with everyone (Exhibit A: Mycah). Maybe it's not a skill on par with Sansa's (though, speaking as a wallflower, I think it is!), but she still gets people to talk to her.

Yeah, the running off thing was just out there. She's 9!

[Mindrot]

Good post, I was never really that excited to read Sansa chapters throughout AGoT because I did not like her character from the beginning, because she caused the death of her Dire Wolf. I understand that you probably dont believe she was the cause of it, from your wording in the post:

"I found Sansa’s relationship with her wolf here to be really heart warming. It’s clear that she loves the animal just as much as Arya does Nymeria, but often it seems to be overlooked due to how soon Lady dies in the book (and what some people assume is Sansa’s culpability in the death)."

I could be mistaken but I assumed the wording of that statement put you into the category of people who believe she was not culpable (I could be wrong). While I understand that it was Cersei that actually ordered the death of a dire wolf as punishment for the damage inflicted on her son, the only reason she had any grounds to demand such a thing was because Sansa did not tell the truth when asked about what happened on the riverbank. I think this points to what you refer to in the top post about people not believing she has the essential "Starkness" in her. She does not tell the truth in order to protect her future husband, a boy that very clearly was the aggressor in the riverbank 'encounter', who most likely was going severely injure Mycah. I believe his line was "I wont hurt him...much", a drunken boy wielding a sword against a clearly submissive boy, I imagine that the encounter would have left Mycah at the very least scarred (we saw that much), more likely seriously injured or maimed, or even perhaps dead. I was very frustrated in reading your post in regards to how Arya acted, indicating that she somehow overreacted in protecting Mycah, and was somehow to blame for the incident. Drunken Joffery was the aggressor at every stage in this encounter until he was disarmed by Nymeria, even going so far as to attack a younger girl armed with a stick, himself armed with a sword.

Had Sansa recounted the events in an accurate manner to the 'tribunal' meeting, Joffrey would have clearly been shown to be in the wrong. Any demands by Cersei would have much less foundation, and could simply be ignored by the King. The Butchers boy Mycah might still be alive (knowing Joffrey, I think he would have ended up dead anyway, but it would have been less blood on the Hounds hands <maybe, he was ever the loyal dog>).

Sansas choice to not tell the whole story is directly the cause of Ladys death, sealing her fate in future books as a passive bird-pawn that will simply do whatever people tell her to do. While I enjoyed her character arc later in the books, she was obviously the least "Starky" of the other children/dire wolf combos, if for no other reason than she was not truthful in this scenario in order to protect her future husband. She needed a wristband that said "WWNSD" (what would Ned Stark do)

[headtrip_honey]

Sansas choice to not tell the whole story is directly the cause of Ladys death, sealing her fate in future books as a passive bird-pawn that will simply do whatever people tell her to do. While I enjoyed her character arc later in the books, she was obviously the least "Starky" of the other children/dire wolf combos, if for no other reason than she was not truthful in this scenario in order to protect her future husband. She needed a wristband that said "WWNSD" (what would Ned Stark do)

I'm sorry, but wrong. Sansa's wolf wasn't even involved in the altercation. The only reason Lady got chosen was because Nymeria was nowhere to be had. Cersei did NOT want those wolves travelling South with them, and told Robert as much. She took any opportunity to get rid of the last wolf they had.

ETA: To clarify, let's posit what may have happened if she DID tell the truth.

Sansa: Your grace, Joff was tormenting the butcher's boy, and Arya jumped in to defend him, hitting Joff so hard the back of his head was bloody. He retaliated, they kept fighting, until Nymeria jumped in and bit his arm.

Robert: I see, thank you Sansa. Well, Ned, it looks like my son was a bit of a shit. I'll deal with him if you deal with her.

Cersei: What of the wolf that nearly tore your son's arm off?

...and it would end up exactly where it was without Sansa saying anything. The truth is Arya beat Joff up quite badly, the crown prince, and her wolf attacked him. Cersei was going to go after the wolf no matter what Sansa said. Sansa's omitting the truth had nothing to do with Cersei's decision to remove the direwolves' presence in their caravan.

[David Selig]

Had Sansa recounted the events in an accurate manner to the 'tribunal' meeting, Joffrey would have clearly been shown to be in the wrong. Any demands by Cersei would have much less foundation, and could simply be ignored by the King. The Butchers boy Mycah might still be alive (knowing Joffrey, I think he would have ended up dead anyway, but it would have been less blood on the Hounds hands <maybe, he was ever the loyal dog>).

Sansas choice to not tell the whole story is directly the cause of Ladys death, sealing her fate in future books as a passive bird-pawn that will simply do whatever people tell her to do. While I enjoyed her character arc later in the books, she was obviously the least "Starky" of the other children/dire wolf combos, if for no other reason than she was not truthful in this scenario in order to protect her future husband. She needed a wristband that said "WWNSD" (what would Ned Stark do)

I have to disagree. Robert, by his own admission later, suspected Joffrey was lying and Arya was telling the truth. But he just wanted to have his wife stop nagging him about the werewolves, she was already doing before the incident, so as usual he chose the path of least resistance and less bother for him. Whatever the reason, a direwolf attacked Joffrey and Cersei wouldn't have been satisfied with anything less than what he did - she didn't give a damn that he abused a commoner. Sansa telling the truth would've changed nothing.

[brashcandy]

@mindrot - I think I noted in that initial post that my feelings were conflicted over Arya's attack on Joffrey. I wish she hadn't done it, but I can understand the fury she felt. Having said that, I don't believe Joffrey would have maimed or killed Mycah, and I wish Arya had found another way to distract him instead of bashing his head in.

As headtrip_honey and David have noted, Sansa's telling the truth would not have spared Lady's life. Cersei wanted those wolves dead, and it's only a pity that Lady had to be sacrificed for something she was not involved in. Her death (and Mycah's) is symbolic of how the innocent often pay for the guilty, and life really doesn't guarantee fairness and justice.

I think Sansa is judged too harshly in that scene, and as someone noted above, she chooses to take neither side in the argument by claiming that she can't remember. Looking at it closely, it was the best solution to a nasty situation, and the adults are the ones who show themselves more dishonourable than the girls in my opinion.

[childofsummer]

Just a note on Ned in response to some of the accusations that he didn't keep Sansa and Arya in line enough on the journey south.

Remember, he was a dad, not a mom, and Westerosi custom seems to have been that mothers did more of the nurturing. He was probably very unused to being primarily responsible for the girls' day-to-day activities. Since Septa Mordane, who was essentially a governess, was along, he probably expected her to do that.

Arya and running around with commoners - I don't think kids were as restricted as in our society. It was probably normal to have them running around playing in the woods, so long as they stayed within a reasonable distance. After all, they were traveling with a bunch of seasoned warrior-types who, presumably, were scouting the whole way down to make sure there weren't any bandits or other baddies around.

Sansa and Joff's riding adventure - Ned was probably busy with the Council members, just like Cersei. I imagine he assumed that, since Joff was always with Sandor, the kids wouldn't be going off alone; and even if they were, see note above about "safe" terrain. Sansa wasn't given to misbehaving, anyway, so I can't see that he had reason to be terribly concerned.

Indulging Arya - she reminded him of the sister he loved. I have to say that he rose to a high level of awesomeness for recognizing her interests and frustrations, and helping her express those in what he thought was a safe environment by hiring Syrio.

Clearly, Sansa loved her father and was also occasionally frustrated by him, but aren't we all, even past the pre-teen years? I don't think she wanted to get him in trouble by telling Cersei that Ned was planning to send her home. She was young and was doing what young things to - act without fully thinking about the consequences. She just wanted to stay in King's Landing. My take on Sansa is that she had to be shown in the first book as naive and immature in order to set up the maturation arc for the series. This may have been overdone a bit, but then again, remembering myself around middle school-age... maybe not. :)

[headtrip_honey]

Remember, he was a dad, not a mom, and Westerosi custom seems to have been that mothers did more of the nurturing. He was probably very unused to being primarily responsible for the girls' day-to-day activities. Since Septa Mordane, who was essentially a governess, was along, he probably expected her to do that.

:bang: As the only parent present it was his job to keep his children safe. Cat herself says this. She tells him to not let Bran climb (before Bran's fall, clearly).

If it was Septa Mordane's job, he clearly didn't outline her duties well enough, because otherwise she seems to have shit handled. If she was supposed to chaperone the girls all the time, he should have told her.

[Caro99]

so happy i found this thread!! i can never get enough of sansa and sandor! :)

[Caro99]

Heh. I always feel so torn about this line. On one hand, it's kind of hilarious. On the other hand, way to make fun of the terrified little girl who's all alone in a crowd of strangers and to get everyone else laughing at her too, Sandor! He's such an ass. And I say that with the utmost affection, naturally. ;)

i know, sandor was a little mean there, but thankfully he made up for it to her later, and sansa is so nice she never even grudge him about it, but still, can you imagine how would thigns have turn out if sandor hadn't fallen for sansa? the wet-nurse joke would be the 1st of a very long list...

[Grail King]

Not really. I don't particularly blame LF for Lyssa's mental state, although I don't think he helped at all. I figured that Hoster Tully and her forced marriage were more decisive - and from what we learn by Lysa's own account, that in turn was basically a result from her own mistake, albeit tragically so.

And that is the thing. In AFFC, by my reading, she is visibly cracking, and quite seriously so.

She is keeping herself together externally, but only at the cost of losing herself internally. But I guess this thread will come to that point in due time.

That sort of is the problem. She is making way too many concessions for that darned Petyr Baelish. For one thing, she seems to actually fear being recognized by Bronze Yohn Royce. It is even hinted, if not stated outright, that at that point she may trust Baelish over Royce. Which is a very grave mistake, and she ought to know that well after witnessing what Dontos, Robert Arryn and Lyssa suffered by trusting Baelish. That, by and of itself, is clear evidence to me that Sansa has unfortunately broken.

Where is she to go? she is trapped at the moment and whom does she trust? so far except for her family anyone else she trusted basically shafted her, Cersei,Joff,QOT,Tyrion, Dontos, LF the only one who didn't mess with her at least for her title is Sandor, but he acts too much like a jerk to her that she fears him.

And lets not forget she just spent months in a castle maybe 700 feet above ground where she was almost raped and pushed out a moon door.

Now if she was mentally breaking she would not still see herself as a Stark remember LF renames her yet in her head she says she's Sansa Stark daughter of Eddard and Catelyn.

She can assess what LF is doing with the Lords Declearents, she can answer LF questions without problems and as Baleish said to her if you know what a man wants you know how to play them.

She started as a piece but is becoming a player it's a question of LF or her own.

[brashcandy]

:bang: As the only parent present it was his job to keep his children safe. Cat herself says this. She tells him to not let Bran climb (before Bran's fall, clearly).

If it was Septa Mordane's job, he clearly didn't outline her duties well enough, because otherwise she seems to have shit handled. If she was supposed to chaperone the girls all the time, he should have told her.

The lack of supervision was ridiculous, these children should not have been able to roam without someone following them at a safe distance at least. I don't know how Joffrey was allowed to simply leave the Hound behind, and anything could have happened to either Mycah or Arya on one of their jaunts through the countryside.

[Mindrot]

@Headtrip_Honey: I never stated that Cersei did not want to get rid of the wolves already, I noted that by not telling the truth about what happened, Sansa gave more foundation for Cersei to demand the wolves be killed. I have no doubt she would have still asked for the wolf to be killed, but her request could have simply been ignored, or even circumvented by simply having Lady return north to Winterfell. You conviently left the retelling of what would have happened if Sansa told the real story at "What about the wolf that nearly tore your sons arm off..." My entire point is that her demand would not have had legs had everyone known the truth:

"Sansa: Your grace, Joff was tormenting the butcher's boy, and Arya jumped in to defend him, hitting Joff so hard the back of his head was bloody. He retaliated, they kept fighting, until Nymeria jumped in and bit his arm.

Robert: I see, thank you Sansa. Well, Ned, it looks like my son was a bit of a shit. I'll deal with him if you deal with her.

Cersei: What of the wolf that nearly tore your son's arm off?"

I could simply add a line: Ned: The wolf was protecting my daughter from your sword wielding son, who else present at the riverbanks could have protected her? I believe it is the responsibility of your Hound to do the same for Joffrey is it not?"

Or some such thing, obviously the nature of the story is not a happy one for the Starks, so Lady dying was required to allow the rest of the events that unfold in the books, but that does not change the argument that it was Sansa's decision NOT to tell the truth that caused her Lady's life to be so easily offered up as punitive measures. If the wolves are a problem, why not simply send them back to Winterfell? No it was because everyone thought that Joffrey was just walking along and was assaulted by the "wolf girl" and her wolf, well we cant simply kill Arya, but the wolf....

King Robert knows his 'son' is a piece of trash and probably a dangerous psychopath in the making (cutting the kittens from their mothers womb anyone?), but in that meeting there was no evidence offered up to challenge what Joffrey himself said happened, so the punishment seemed justified. This was clearly the fault of Sansa and her silence.

@Brashcandy: Why do you think he would not have maimed or killed Mycah? In the course of the books I dont think there is ever a single shred of evidence that Joffrey has empathy towards anyone except perhaps his mother. And even once he became King, he began to not even listen to her anymore. What thought or concept would have stopped him from seriously hurting/killing Mycah?

I also do not understand how her not "remembering" could be the best solution for a nasty problem. It certainly was not the 'best solution' for Lady or Mycah. Her telling the truth could have opened the eyes of others around Joffrey to how much of a scumbag he is, at the very least. And if you guys are correct and Lady/Mycah were going to die anyway, why not get the truth out there, would that not still be a better solution that simply saying "I dont remember", which helps no one but the Sociopathic Joffrey?

[Lemon Cake]

The lack of supervision was ridiculous, these children should not have been able to roam without someone following them at a safe distance at least. I don't know how Joffrey was allowed to simply leave the Hound behind, and anything could have happened to either Mycah or Arya on one of their jaunts through the countryside.

I agree, especially about Joff leaving the Hound. Whatever else can be said about the Hound, the man is supposed to be a professional who's considered very good at his job; there's no way he would have let the Crown Prince wander off into the countryside like that.

That said, I chalk it up to plot convenience. GRRM needed the incident by the Trident to happen, and it couldn't have if all the children were properly supervised.

[LuisDantas]

LF is constantly forcing himself on her and talks about how her mother gave up her virginity to him. It's kinda clear what he wants. And that he'll keep her alive for the time being.

Royce is unknown at this point.

Looks like a clear choice to me.