Sandor V.16

[littlespider]

Off-topic, but I'm trying to stay away from too much typing atm. I'm dealing with either carpal tunnel or repetitive stress injury in my hand and either way typing right now kinda sucks.

So this was just a big lead up to say, I LOVE YOU ALL BUT I MAY NOT BE AROUND MUCH FOR A WHILE.

My husband keeps glaring at me every time he sees me glued to my computer and wincing at the same time. The spousal shaming just isn't worth it.

Sorry to hear this h_h; we will miss your insight. Meanwhile, for the pain, I recommend a coupla vicodin. Wash those suckers down with vodka and you'll be all set.

"I wish they'd stop mentioning this Hound guy. I don't care about him and he's obviously not important." Words: eaten.

Priceless. I love it!

I, too, was imprinted strongly by the Starks. That's what was missing from the last two books -- they weren't Stark centered.

I'll take the Dornish over the Ironborn, though. Dorne at least seems to have some polish. The Ironborn all feel like losers who hang out behind the bowling alley.

Yes, the Dornish definitely are more sophisticated in a number of ways (I have to imagine that they have the BEST cuisine in all of Westeros). The Ironborn are like lame vikings. I really can't explain my attachment, unless it's to the sheer meatheadedness of the Ironborn culture. Plus I've always been the type that got jittery when I was too far away from the ocean.

[headtrip_honey]

thx guys (typing from the spare bedroom...he's distracted by assassin's creed!)

it's my job's fault - i've been doing far too much data entry this week, and i guess the state of my hand is possibly proof that i was at least productive but alas the only remedy is rest.

@spider alas...vicodin makes me puke. fun fact to learn when you've just had your wisdom teeth out and are having difficulty eating solids in the first place.

but i think a few motrin and a nice tumbler of whiskey might do the trick...

[Starbird]

With both Sansa and Arya, Sandor is very aware of their heritage. Can we say we don't know if he respects Starks, but damn it he seems to know his Stark history and can comment on it from time to time?

I want to know what the Ned/Sandor history is. Ned's clearly aware of Sandor. He lists him as the 2nd person he notices, after Jaime, when Robert's retinue arrives at WF. He's glad he's not there when Arya's testifying against Joffrey. After his leg is broken and Jaime leaves KL, he says the person he's worried about most is Sandor. Why?? What's the deal there?? For Sandor's part, he seems to enjoy antagonizing Ned. He doesn't make his crack about Mycah not running fast until after looking at his face. I forget if there's anything else. Oh, there's that tasteless comment about Ned's legs jerking during his execution, as though Sandor kind of enjoyed that. :ack: And Sandor telling Sansa that he's quite sure her wonderful father killed people (as in, don't look down your nose at me when your dad's killing people, too.) So, yeah, there seems to be some bad blood there.

I suspect, at the least, that Sandor thinks Ned is rather stiff and Ned considered Sandor a dangerous wildcard. They would've fought together, or at least in the same war, when Robert seized the throne. I hope one day we'll get a nice long chapter where Sandor and Sansa sit down over a flagon of wine and Sandor tells us ev-ery-thing.

[Starbird]

Sorry to hear about the hand, HH! Rest up and feel better! :grouphug:

[littlespider]

Sandor was 12 at the time of Robert's rebellion, right? And he would have fought there. Later, I think we can assume he would have marched with Robert's forces to put down Balon Greyjoy too. So Ned may have some working knowledge of him from two different wars.

I think you're right about Ned thinking of him as a dangerous wildcard. As for the Hound, my guess is that his contempt for Ned is the same as what he has for all the other high lords, but it might be a little more intense because he senses The Ned's attempt to be a just and righteous guy with a sense of honor. We all know what Sandor says about honor and justice and whatnot: "Piss on that."

[Candor]

thx guys (typing from the spare bedroom...he's distracted by assassin's creed!)

it's my job's fault - i've been doing far too much data entry this week, and i guess the state of my hand is possibly proof that i was at least productive but alas the only remedy is rest.

@spider alas...vicodin makes me puke. fun fact to learn when you've just had your wisdom teeth out and are having difficulty eating solids in the first place.

but i think a few motrin and a nice tumbler of whiskey might do the trick...

Vicodin also affects me in this way. Well, I do hope you let yourself rest as you need to, and come on back then! :)

[Lemon Cake]

I think it is definitely possible that she would be cautious at first around any Payne, even such a sweet and perfect Payne as Mr. Podrick. I can't remember though -- was she cautious around him in SoS? I know she talked to him a few times.

Yes, at one point in ASoS (right before they left for Joffrey and Margaery's wedding, I think?) Sansa asks him a question about the colors of his House, and while he stutters his answer, she reflects that she was wary of him at first because of the relation to Ilyn Payne, but now she thinks he's a perfectly nice and harmless boy who seems more scared of her than she is of him. Or something along those lines. That's the basic gist.

My guess is that if/when Brienne and Pod do catch up with her, Sansa may actually think that Pod's presence will indicate that, whatever Brienne says, their real plan is to drag her back to KL and hand her over to Cersei. She's become increasingly untrusting (understandably so).

Yes, I've worried about this too. She's bound to be suspicious of anyone she knows was loyal to Tyrion. But that's okay! The course of true love never runs smoothly, and this is just a small obstacle for PodSan. :P I know you weren't actually talking about shipping here, I'm just being silly.

Sorry, LS, I don't see Pod and Sansa getting together. They would've been cute together when she first got to KL but she's too astute for him now. Besides, she's come to appreciate Sandor's ferocity.

She's come to appreciate it for now, when she's in a dangerous position and her life is constantly in peril, but would she really want someone who's so... RAWR SMASH BANG BUGGER in a long-term way, after the war is over, when everything has settled and she's no longer in danger on a daily basis? I'm sure we all have a different take on it, but my personal opinion is that she would not. I think in the long-term, she'd want someone strong, certainly, but also someone much gentler and, well, less crude than Sandor. That's why I don't see a long-term happily-ever-after relationship in store for them. I do think they'll have some kind of romantic storyline together later on, but I expect it to be brief and passionate and then to end, for one reason or another.

If they wash out his mouth with soap while he's on the QI, there'd be hope for them. Even if they don't, she'd probably feel more comfy with someone who could protect her.

There's no reason why that couldn't be Pod in a few years, though. He's only a kid right now, remember, but he won't always be. He's already shown that he's got some serious courage in battle, and he's been training hard with Brienne. Give him a few years and he'll probably be as formidable a warrior as any.

but unfortunately I think Pod falls into the Sweetrobin category of being too weak for Sansa.

*offended gasp* POD IS NOTHING LIKE SWEETROBIN YOU TAKE THAT BACK RIGHT NOW. :P No, seriously, I don't see how he's anything like Sweetrobin. The only area in which Pod lacks courage is in social interaction. He's shown himself to have plenty of gumption in battle, and he's also shown himself to be quite level-headed in those situations. He may be saddled with crippling shyness, but he is not a snivelling, spoiled little weenie like Sweetrobin. Plus, Pod would never nuzzle Sansa's boobs. At least, not without permission.

Just y'all wait. Come TWoW Pod will be a foul-mouthed bruiser after having saved both Brienne and Jaime and single-handedly taken on and defeated the entire BwB. Sansa will fall into Pod's arms after he and Dog take out Littlefinger. Luckily Septon Meribald will be right there to marry them. Then Sandor will roll up. *cue "forever alone" face*

:commie:

Though on a non-shipping topic, Pod should really spend some time hanging out with Sandor If that won't grow some hair on the poor kid's chest, I don't know what will.

I am being totally serious in saying that I'm desperate for this to happen. I need some Sandor-Podrick interaction in my life.

Ahem. Sorry. My PodSan shipping came out something fierce in this post. For what it's worth, I don't actually expect PodSan to happen ( :bawl: ), as there are really no clues for it in the books. I just think it would be incredibly sweet if it did, because Pod is such a sweetheart, and he's Sansa's age, and I think he could very well grow into exactly the kind of man Sansa wants and needs, and because it's a ship that gives me no guilty feelings whatsoever unlike some other ships I could name.

Okay, I'm done now. Carry on, everyone.

[Starbird]

Priceless. I love it!

I, too, was imprinted strongly by the Starks. That's what was missing from the last two books -- they weren't Stark centered.

Yes, the Dornish definitely are more sophisticated in a number of ways (I have to imagine that they have the BEST cuisine in all of Westeros). The Ironborn are like lame vikings. I really can't explain my attachment, unless it's to the sheer meatheadedness of the Ironborn culture. Plus I've always been the type that got jittery when I was too far away from the ocean.

You know. You're right! I've been thinking my dissatisfaction has stemmed from too much of the books taking place in Braavos and Meereen but it's been a lack of Starks all along. You have put a name to my pain. Augh!

Ditto on the cuisine and the ocean.

[clover]

Well, that is another thing. That is what threw me off in Book 1 and now this crap comes back to you when you are at Book 3. Sandor has made casual or thoughtful barbs, comments, or whatever ??? about Ned and his lineage. I am guessing that as a boy that ran away fast from Clegane Manor to service with the Lannisters, and as a young man who saw both Robert, Ned and the Starks,the Targaryens, and pretty much everybody inovolved in the Rebellion, he has probably observed a hell of a lot and has a lot to say but we, the readers, see it in his commentary outbursts occasionally. This guy has been in every major battle, war... survived, and is like a walking primary source for so much valuable info...

I believe he cares for Sansa, but in the first two books you seriously consider what the hell the thinks about her family due to his always interesting comments, and then by book three he doesn't mind joining them? Brain overload...again.

[Starbird]

She's come to appreciate it for now, when she's in a dangerous position and her life is constantly in peril, but would she really want someone who's so... RAWR SMASH BANG BUGGER in a long-term way, after the war is over, when everything has settled and she's no longer in danger on a daily basis? I'm sure we all have a different take on it, but my personal opinion is that she would not. I think in the long-term, she'd want someone strong, certainly, but also someone much gentler and, well, less crude than Sandor. That's why I don't see a long-term happily-ever-after relationship in store for them. I do think they'll have some kind of romantic storyline together later on, but I expect it to be brief and passionate and then to end, for one reason or another.

There's no reason why that couldn't be Pod in a few years, though. He's only a kid right now, remember, but he won't always be. He's already shown that he's got some serious courage in battle, and he's been training hard with Brienne. Give him a few years and he'll probably be as formidable a warrior as any.

He may be saddled with crippling shyness, but he is not a snivelling, spoiled little weenie like Sweetrobin.

Ahh, that's the thing, though. I really don't think Sandor is going to come off the QI and still be all RAWR SMASH! His mouth won't drip honey but I think he'll be less angry, especially if he gets the chance to somehow "save" Sansa like he failed to do in KL. As for Sansa, I think she's going to want protection, from someone she trusts, possibly forever. As LS noted above, she's becoming increasingly distrustful of people, and I don't blame her. I'd spend the rest of my life looking over my shoulder if I were her. Also, she's living with minty, smooth-talking LF. I think, after that situation comes to a close, she's never going to want to hear the oily words of another politician again, and Sandor's rough-but-honest diction will be refreshing and welcome. I'm still holding out for the long-term romance. :)

I like Pod, truly. He's cute and I don't doubt he'll grow up to be all kinds of awesome. He'll make some girl very happy. I just don't think it will be Sansa.

Sniveling, spoiled little weenie?? :snort!:

[Lemon Cake]

Just wanted to say, since I missed it on my last post, that I hope you feel better soon, headtrip! We'll miss you!

Back to Sandor. Discuss.

[clover]

That is a big fear of mine...I don;t see him coming off the QI and being a Mr. Miyagi peaceful dude.

I haven't read that far although I have indulged in far too many spoilers much to my delight. But even though I'm not there yet, I am putting off the time when I actually have to come to terms with Arya leaving him to die, the Qi exchange, the helm, and really delving deep into the possibilities of what the hell can possibly come out of this for him. I have speculated before but I really need to face it and think about it. LOL!

[Lemon Cake]

That is a big fear of mine...I don;t see him coming off the QI and being a Mr. Miyagi peaceful dude.

I'm so glad you said this, simply because of the glorious image I now have in my head of a training montage in which Sandor teaches Pod how to fight, complete with a "wax on, wax off" lesson. Only it's Sandor's armor he has to wax, instead of a car. Obviously.

[MaryaStone]

I may have mentioned this before, but I came across a SSM comment that actually really worried me. Martin was apparently really surprised to learn about how unpopular Dorkstar was. His reason?? He had figured that since "bad boy" characters like Sandor Clegane and Theon Greyjoy had proved so very popular, then he would write another one. Namely, Dorkstar. This misperception about why bad boys like Theon and Sandor are popular, and that they could be replicated easily by popping in a cliched, half-formulated cardboard cutout stick figure thingy with BAD FUCKING HAIR and an even worse tagline confirmed to me that it doesn't seem like we're working with the same Martin who had such a deft grasp of character dynamism and complexity as the one in books 1-3.

Theon and Sandor are popular because they're both horrible, horrible assholes who, at some level, struggle with (Sandor) or against (Theon) a strong sense of decency. They come from backgrounds that explain marvelously well why they are assholes. They are fully developed and psychological vibrant characters. Also, I would like to see them make out with each other.

All of you've said very interesting things in these last few posts.

Sandor and Theon, why are they so 'popular' among readers? Well, they are well-written, much better than other characters in the story (Dorkstar, for example, is just an archetype and can't compare to any of them for this reason). They are interesting because Martin has made the effort to portray their characters carefully. I agree with Littlespider when she says the characterization in the first three books is much better, in general terms. Theon is probably the exception, because Reek chapters are fascinating, in a twisted disgusting way, but they are fascinating.

Anyway, if we compare Theon and Sandor, Theon would end up losing by far. Not as a character, I think Theon is great as a character, but as a man. Sandor may be an asshole but he's a real man: he's strong, determined, capable, intelligent (not in a nerdy way like Tyrion but intelligent all the same), fiercely loyal, shockingly honest and even honorable, despite all his efforts at mocking honour codes.

Martin may have said that he's surprised we love the Hound, but he can't give away too much information about his characters. I'm sure he knew we would love him because he consciously and cleverly used a lot of ingredients to make us like him. He did the same with Jaime: they started doing the unforgivable act ( killing a boy) and we hated them for that, but later Martin started to show them in a different light. For the Hound, the discovery of his tragic story ( how he told Sansa) was the starting point. Martin has been directing our attention towards Sandor since the beginning. It's not casual that we are interested. Also, the Hound is supposed to be horrible but we've only seen him do one thing which is horrible : 'killing Mycah'. If George really wanted us to go on disliking him, he would show more despicable acts the Hound did, or other characters would talk about them, but this doesn't happen.

He has a terrible reputation but we only see him do things that are quite honorable ( protecting Sansa, not leering at her like others do, not beating her, saving Loras and avoiding to aim at Gregor's unprotected head while doing so, kidnapping Arya without hurting any BWB people and then looking after her and feeding her.... he even respects those small folks decision when they asked him to leave their village after he'd helped them, and he wanted to stay and had nowhere to go).

If an author wants to create a badass reputation for a character and keep him likable, he/she only has to hint at a dark past but never show a real horrible action directly on screen, so to speak. All Sandor's bad actions are said to have happened in his past, or off screen, we never actually witness them (with one exception).

What is fascinating about the Hound's characterization, is that Martin dares to show us one horrible action the character did and manages to make us like him despite this action. I had a lot of problems at first with this, because the running down scene shocked me and horrified me.

It is indeed a horrible action but as someone has pointed out, Sandor wasn't present when Arya accused Joff, he wasn't present either when Joff attacked poor Mycah and Arya defended him. He was ordered to kill the boy and he did so, thinking the boy had actually hurt the crown prince. I'm not going to start judging if this makes him less guilty or not because we've already done so endlessly, I'm just stating how this happened in the books, trying to avoid value judgments.

My point is that Martin is subtly telling us the guy is not all that bad, because his actions are, in general, good (the ones we witness, at least, because the others happen off screen). He looks like and he speaks like the big bad nasty monster but he's not a monster. He may be better than many other characters in the story.

Oh, big bad nasty monsters ... this makes me think of Little Red Riding Hood and the Big Bad Wolf's encounter in the woods. Little red-headed Sansa went on a scary journey from the tourney grounds -no woods this time- to the Red Keep, escorted by ... woof woof , the big bad Hound! :D Hah!

We all thought he was a beast and he'd eat her up but ... he didn't. She even patted him, not between his ears but she patted his shoulder. He's not all that bad, he won't eat her up, not without her consent, girls and boys.

Did you, readers, get it? Yes, we did, George but it came as a surprise and it shocked us. You smug clever George, don't say you are surprised we like him when you made us like him in such a smart way.

And, last but not least, to deconstruct the fairy tale vibe completely, she is the wolf, not him. Apparently she's a little bird but ,as a Stark, she is the wolf, not him.

I don't know what else will happen but the foreshadowing is extremely compelling. I bet one of them will end up eating up the other and ,in this case, it doesn't matter much who's supposed to play the wolf role, because the other is hardly going to complain.

I forgot poor Theon. I just got carried away by the fairy tale. Well, he's nothing like the Hound. There isn't an atom of nobility in him, he's neither honourable nor honest and he's despicable to say the least. But I love him as a character, I can understand why he does what he does and feel sorry for him. He's one of the best written characters in the story and I enjoy every single chapter where he appears (not so much the rat meal :ack: ). So, when most readers like a character, this doesn't happen by chance. I don't really like Theon as a person, but as a character I do, a great deal.

I want to know what the Ned/Sandor history is. Ned's clearly aware of Sandor. He lists him as the 2nd person he notices, after Jaime, when Robert's retinue arrives at WF. He's glad he's not there when Arya's testifying against Joffrey. After his leg is broken and Jaime leaves KL, he says the person he's worried about most is Sandor. Why?? What's the deal there?? For Sandor's part, he seems to enjoy antagonizing Ned. He doesn't make his crack about Mycah not running fast until after looking at his face. I forget if there's anything else. Oh, there's that tasteless comment about Ned's legs jerking during his execution, as though Sandor kind of enjoyed that. :ack: And Sandor telling Sansa that he's quite sure her wonderful father killed people (as in, don't look down your nose at me when your dad's killing people, too.) So, yeah, there seems to be some bad blood there. I suspect, at the least, that Sandor thinks Ned is rather stiff and Ned considered Sandor a dangerous wildcard. They would've fought together, or at least in the same war, when Robert seized the throne. I hope one day we'll get a nice long chapter where Sandor and Sansa sit down over a flagon of wine and Sandor tells us ev-ery-thing.

As for the Ned-Sandor dynamic, just something that has just occurred to me when I read your posts:

Apart form everything you've said, which I agree with completely, I'd like to add that George is hinting at something again when Ned notices Sandor so clearly among all the Lannister men: Here we have two different/(contrasting) male figures for Sansa: Ned, as the father figure and Sandor as a different kind of figure, but a most significant one as well : is he meant to become the other most important male in a woman't life? Is it time for Sansa to stop being daddy's little girl and find her man?

We'll, she's too young, but life is like that, sometimes we find our significant one under the wrong circumstances and at the wrong time, even hidden under the big bad Hound persona. I think Sansa, instinctively, has somehow recognised him as the one for her, only at a subconscious level but she has, that's why she keeps thinking of him when he's far from her and could be dead for all she knows.

I think it's written on the stars. Seriously, life isn't a fairy tale but this is George's story and I think it's written on his plan all the way, from the start, from the first book: Sandor has no meaning if not related to Sansa and Gregor. He means nothing in the big plot but he's extremely well characterized and his importance must have something to do with Sansa and Gregor, together or separately. I'm not saying this will end up like a fairy tale but SanSan will happen, one way or another, because George wants it to happen (and me tooooo :P ).

[zalim]

Sorry for doesn´t agree. But II can´t see hate. I see fear, but never hate. She can hate him if you read how she speaks of him.

Anyway I think that anybody can say whatever they want and believe (of course: always in a proper and correct manner).

i mean i think even for a while, she hated him. I dont know about later own but for a while she did.

no matter in what manner you say, if a mod happens to be a fan, he will ban you for no good reason but that wont stop me.

[Winter's Lady]

HI everybody!

Normally I just lurk around this topic :blushing: because I can never come up with such intelligent and thought-provoking posts as you all can, and appreciate my dear Sandor in silence.

Just wanted to say, love your last post MaryaStone :bowdown:

Very well said!

*sneaks off again*

[MaryaStone]

HI everybody!

Normally I just lurk around this topic :blushing: because I can never come up with such intelligent and thought-provoking posts as you all can, and appreciate my dear Sandor in silence.

Just wanted to say, love your last post MaryaStone :bowdown:

Very well said!

*sneaks off again*

Thanks! I'm glad you liked it! :cheers: I hope I didn't interpret all Martin's clues wrong! :unsure:

And, headtrip-honey ... get better soon or we'll miss your posts too much! :grouphug:

[Winter's Lady]

Thanks! I'm glad you liked it! :cheers: I hope I didn't interpret all Martin's clues wrong! :unsure:

I understood it the same way. Sandor isn't such a bad person, he just has a rough rawr-smash! way of expressing himself through his words and actions. Of course killing Mycah was wrong, but what could he have done, honestly? It was an order, disobeying would probably have gotten him killed somehow. He probably didn't question the orders given to im at the time, and saw no way of acting differently, that started later on imho.

See, now you got me to participate :D

(also agree on the Theon part btw, not a great person but fascinating character!)

[brashcandy]

@MaryaStone - I agree with your reading of the Sandor/Ned dynamic as well. Besides helping to establish Sandor as a prominent character from early on, I think there was some relevance in having Sansa's father be the one to take such notice of him. It reminds me of when the Hound sees Arya, and immediately thinks of her in relation to Sansa, as the little sister. :)

[clover]

I like that, Marya.

It really is an under the wrong circumstances, unfortunate timing type of thing that sort of happened between the both of them.

Like classic movie, never expected to happen, type of stuff. Well, without all the drama, with godawful coarser language, and instead of top hat and tails, there is chain mail. LOL! The only good things are that it seemed to change him and set him off on a better path and she has thoughts of him that help her through the rougher times ahead.