Sandor V.16

[bgona]

Not much to say, but at first I read the bolded part as:

"Dorne at least seems to have some Polish..."

I was very confused.

Off-topic, but I'm trying to stay away from too much typing atm. I'm dealing with either carpal tunnel or repetitive stress injury in my hand and either way typing right now kinda sucks.

So this was just a big lead up to say, I LOVE YOU ALL BUT I MAY NOT BE AROUND MUCH FOR A WHILE.

My husband keeps glaring at me every time he sees me glued to my computer and wincing at the same time. The spousal shaming just isn't worth it.

Hope you get well soon!! At least read us with the other hand!

[bgona]

I want to know what the Ned/Sandor history is. Ned's clearly aware of Sandor. He lists him as the 2nd person he notices, after Jaime, when Robert's retinue arrives at WF. He's glad he's not there when Arya's testifying against Joffrey. After his leg is broken and Jaime leaves KL, he says the person he's worried about most is Sandor. Why?? What's the deal there?? For Sandor's part, he seems to enjoy antagonizing Ned. He doesn't make his crack about Mycah not running fast until after looking at his face. I forget if there's anything else. Oh, there's that tasteless comment about Ned's legs jerking during his execution, as though Sandor kind of enjoyed that. :ack: And Sandor telling Sansa that he's quite sure her wonderful father killed people (as in, don't look down your nose at me when your dad's killing people, too.) So, yeah, there seems to be some bad blood there.

I suspect, at the least, that Sandor thinks Ned is rather stiff and Ned considered Sandor a dangerous wildcard. They would've fought together, or at least in the same war, when Robert seized the throne. I hope one day we'll get a nice long chapter where Sandor and Sansa sit down over a flagon of wine and Sandor tells us ev-ery-thing.

Even Jaime also discribed him as a great fighter. Maybe for that?

Also dogs and wolfs don´t get well at the begin.

[bgona]

i mean i think even for a while, she hated him. I dont know about later own but for a while she did.

no matter in what manner you say, if a mod happens to be a fan, he will ban you for no good reason but that wont stop me.

Never, not even at the begining, Sansa spoke of hating him, of fearing him yes. Always she defended him of the responsability of Mycah´s killing.

[bgona]

I have a really hard time getting into the Dorne characters. And I'm bored to tears of Essos and, especially, Meereen. The Vale is where it's at; the Quiet Isle is where it's at. :)

Thanks, I thought I was the only one! jajaja.

Probably I´m the only one of getting bored of Dany´s POV. They are interesting, many things happens, but the way they are writting (how she sees the things and how she explained, well I don´t know how to explained, it´s just me) against others POV bored me.

[Yvonesan]

I don't think his feelings are innapropriate we know he is battling himself but I doubt it has to do with her age, it's more to do with who she is (Joff's bride to be). I respect your position but I's gots to say that I feel that as fans living in the real world we are getting far too hung up on age and superimposing our socital morality onto aSoiaF, don't do it, you dishonor the story, Westerosi's at 13 are the equivalent of our 15/16 year olds. In our own history (Richard the II AKA THE WHITE HART FFS! You have your socially acceptable parallel that features in Sansa's chapters and daydreaming!) cannon law stated a girl child to be wed could be no younger than 7 (matching the age of King Richard the II's child bride at the time) a male child was considered 7-14, a girl 7-12. Sansa is a woman at 13 and flowered!

Men are OLD at 40 and basically corpses at 50 in this context. The difference in the age between Sandor and Sansa is 13 years the difference between me and my husband is 12. :huh: it IS modern social morality & modern life expectancy that makes 13 + 26 bad but 30 + 41 just fine!

It is weird how in real life we think nothing of an age gap when we're older. Although I do remember fancying an older guy when I was younger. I think I must have been about 12 (he was around 20 then and thinking about it now, I was too young at the time to realize that I was actually attracted to him) and when I ran into him years later, I was impressed with my 12-year old self's taste in men because he still seemed as gorgeous as ever ...but happily married by then.. if only we had existed in Westeros when I was 12! :leer: Guess I should be grateful that we didn't all the same!)

You bring up a point that I understand anyway. I don't condone young teens in any relationship with older men either but I won't necessarily feel the same moral grounds for disapproval in this story. This is a different world to the one we know where a girl barely out of childhood can and does marry a man much older e.g. Dany and Drogo. Sansa and Sandor had an undeniable connection from very early on, one of those things that draws someone to other people without really being able to explain it. They already know each other better than Dany and Drogo ever did before marriage too. Taking this into account, I can accept a 13 year old and a 20-something year old have feelings for each other here without too much stretch of the imagination. The fact is though... Sandor never went there with Sansa... whatever his intentions were when he went to her room that night, he didn't rape her nor seriously attempt to start a physical relationship with her at all. Hopefully that's because these two will factor into each other's story at a later stage and we can appreciate it all the more then, when Sansa is older, wiser and knows that what you see on the surface isn't what you always get. I'd say she has become aware of the latter already.

Because I can't reconcile why he would have been the type of person to do that to her and hurt her and leave her like that but yet he regrets leaving her behind. If he had intended to harm her it makes no sense that he regrets leaving her way after the fact. Or why would he even have gone so far to protect her as he did before he left her in the first place?

Very true. We know that Sandor can be a very dangerous man to know but when it comes to Sansa, I've never felt any real threat to her from him. Just the opposite in fact. The thing is, violence is so much of what he is familiar with so he can easily come across as intimidating but we've seen that he does respect certain boundaries.

Touching someone's face like that... well, maybe it's just me, but that is an extremely tender, intimate sort of gesture. I personally have only ever touched two people that way in my entire life: my husband, with whom I am in love; and an old boyfriend with whom I was in love at the time. I can't imagine reaching out and trying to comfort just anyone by using that particular gesture. Again, it might just be me, but it's a very intimate gesture that is really only apt for a very specific type of relationship.

You've just highlighted a really great point! Such an intimate gesture is usually only given when one person is very comfortable with the other, even if in a way that isn't yet understood. Sansa may have been terrified but subconsciously she is not out of her comfort zone entirely if she could do this. In another way, I think this type of tender touch also represents two people on an equal emotional level.

Sandor isn't such a bad person, he just has a rough rawr-smash! way of expressing himself through his words and actions. Of course killing Mycah was wrong, but what could he have done, honestly? It was an order, disobeying would probably have gotten him killed somehow. He probably didn't question the orders given to im at the time, and saw no way of acting differently, that started later on imho.

Agree with everything you said! I think it is why I can move past Sandor's actions in killing Mycah and yet still find it hard to forgive Jaime for pushing Bran off the window ledge. Killing Mycah is the only thing I can think of that I dislike the Hound for but then Mycah probably represents just one of many unforgivable commands that Sandor followed through on in order to do his job. When Sandor tells Arya that he laughed about it afterwards, I got the feeling that he was admitting to himself how awful he was. Right after saying it and as far as I can recall, he kind of lets out a sob and goes on to say that he never saved Sansa when he could have. Talk about confession time when he thinks he's about to kick the bucket! Mr Martin... don't let that be his last!

[Caro99]

Doubtful. Some guy snuck on set and got a picture with Sophie, who was "roughed up" looking from the riot scene (among other photos and video he took), and the caption for that picture was, roughly translated, "I rescued her, not Clegane!!"

Which intimates to me that he does indeed rescue her.

i know which video you're talking about and i agree with you, it does imply that sandor rescues her, and that the guy might have also been present while that particular scene was being shot, so if anyone has a youtube account and don't mind spoilers for the 2nd season, please please ask the guy if he did see anything related to this... XD

and i'm sorry you won't be posting annything for a time by the way :( hope you get better, & take care

and bgona, i don't think they'll take out the scene, they'll only shift it around to fit the budget, sophie's allergy and maybe the screen writers take on their relationship...

[Ednawolf]

You know. You're right! I've been thinking my dissatisfaction has stemmed from too much of the books taking place in Braavos and Meereen but it's been a lack of Starks all along. You have put a name to my pain. Augh! Ditto on the cuisine and the ocean.

Peppercrab stew sounds pretty good though. I hope the recipe is in the new Westeros cookbook.

[childofsummer]

I'm so glad you said this, simply because of the glorious image I now have in my head of a training montage in which Sandor teaches Pod how to fight, complete with a "wax on, wax off" lesson. Only it's Sandor's armor he has to wax, instead of a car. Obviously.

:thumbsup: "I say. You do. No questions." I'd never have come up with the Miyagi-esque Sandor on my own, but it's...perfect! And at the end, the now-buff Pod hits his growth spurt, his voice stops cracking, and he's ready to woo Sansa.

[Lemon Cake]

:thumbsup: "I say. You do. No questions." I'd never have come up with the Miyagi-esque Sandor on my own, but it's...perfect! And at the end, the now-buff Pod hits his growth spurt, his voice stops cracking, and he's ready to woo Sansa.

YES GOOD.

Sandor will be sad, but he'll always have Stranger.

[1234567]

*offended gasp* POD IS NOTHING LIKE SWEETROBIN YOU TAKE THAT BACK RIGHT NOW. :P No, seriously, I don't see how he's anything like Sweetrobin. The only area in which Pod lacks courage is in social interaction. He's shown himself to have plenty of gumption in battle, and he's also shown himself to be quite level-headed in those situations. He may be saddled with crippling shyness, but he is not a snivelling, spoiled little weenie like Sweetrobin. Plus, Pod would never nuzzle Sansa's boobs. At least, not without permission. :commie:

:lol: Very true, Pod is no weenie.......but I still think given the crippling shyness, Sansa would have to take the lead in that relationship and like Ser Dontos, he lacks the Hound's fury and I'm not sure Sansa would cope with mothering another boy..... :leaving:

Also Headtrip, sorry to hear about your woes, hope you get better soon! :grouphug:

[Ednawolf]

Which Stark sister do you think that Sandor feels more affectionate towards? He was enamored by Sansa, but responsible for (and I suspect sometimes amused by) Arya. Which Stark sister do you think made a greater impact upon his life?

[littlespider]

Which Stark sister do you think that Sandor feels more affectionate towards? He was enamored by Sansa, but responsible for (and I suspect sometimes amused by) Arya. Which Stark sister do you think made a greater impact upon his life?

Both, equal impact, but in different ways.

I posted my Arya manifesto several pages back. Sansa's a catalyst of sorts, for reasons many above have eloquently stated. I think that when he's with Arya, he gets a chance to self-reflect. Look at Arya's like looking at a mirror at himself in miniature.

[MaryaStone]

There's something about the scene in Sansa's bedroom that has kept me wondering for a while:

Why did Sandor get rid of his white cloak ( in fact he ripped it from his body) and leave it there?

Why did he decide to leave it? Why did he decide to get rid of it right then and not before or after meeting Sansa?

It could make it easier for him to go through the gates and out of the city or it could be the opposite, it could attract more attention towards him (although he always attracts too much attention anyway, he's far from being your average looking guy). Anyway, why did he litterally ripped it after she sung for him, after he cupped her cheek and noticed his tears.

In fact, I don't think he cried because she touched his face, I think he was already crying. He probably started weeping while he listened to her song. That song was much more poignant than a love song would have been because it was about him, about gentling that rage that always consumed him. It was about protection for someone who'd never felt safe or protected while he grew up and who turned into a man nobody cared about.

Any ideas?

[brashcandy]

There's something about the scene in Sansa's bedroom that has kept me wondering for a while:

Why did Sandor get rid of his white cloak ( in fact he ripped it from his body) and leave it there?

Why did he decide to leave it? Why did he decide to get rid of it right then and not before or after meeting Sansa?

It could make it easier for him to go through the gates and out of the city or it could be the opposite, it could attract more attention towards him (although he always attracts too much attention anyway, he's far being your average looking guy). Anyway, why did he litterally ripped it after she sung for him, after he cupped her cheek and noticed his tears.

In fact, I don't think he cried because she touched his face, I think he was already crying. He probably started weeping while he listened to her song. That song was much more poignant than a love song would have been because it was about him, about gentling that rage that always consumed him. It was about protection for someone who'd never felt safe or protected while he grew up and who turned into a man nobody cared about.

Any ideas?

He left the cloak because he was disgusted with himself and by extension, everything that cloak represented. The white cloak was supposed to be symbolic of honour and valour, but there he was in her room threatening her with a dagger, and the other Kingsguard members had beat her mercilessly, while he stood by and did nothing (as he later tells Arya). So tearing it off was a reflection of his shame, and the fact that he was done with living this "sham". He wasn't going to continue to wear something that had no meaning, and had in fact become associated with abuse, weakness and terror.

And yes, he was crying before she touched his face. The song - filled with kindness and hope, was what brought him out of the rage and violence, and made him consciously aware of his misbehaviour. It soothed him, and the fact that it was coming from Sansa, someone who had all rights to be terrified and hateful towards him in that moment, made it more impactful. Her gentleness of spirit managed to touch him in a way that I doubt anyone had ever achieved before, and the song spoke to someone he needed badly: healing. We can't forget that Sandor came to her bedroom that night, broken, afraid and alone. These aren't things that he would have admitted to anyone, but they were there nonetheless and caused him to react violently when he felt that Sansa had rejected him. The song was about healing those emotions, and this is why he began to cry, because he was being made to confront his demons through Sansa's recognition and forgiveness almost.

GRRM could have written the scene without adding in the face touching, to be honest, since it wasn't what brought about his transformation that night. However, I think 1. he wanted to establish Sandor's crying and 2. to set up a very intimate connection between them for future significance.

[MaryaStone]

He left the cloak because he was disgusted with himself and by extension, everything that cloak represented. The white cloak was supposed to be symbolic of honour and valour, but there he was in her room threatening her with a dagger, and the other Kingsguard members had beat her mercilessly, while he stood by and did nothing (as he later tells Arya). So tearing it off was a reflection of his shame, and the fact that he was done with living this "sham". He wasn't going to continue to wear something that had no meaning, and had in fact become associated with abuse, weakness and terror.

And yes, he was crying before she touched his face. The song - filled with kindness and hope, was what brought him out of the rage and violence, and made him consciously aware of his misbehaviour. It soothed him, and the fact that it was coming from Sansa, someone who had all rights to be terrified and hateful towards him in that moment, made it more impactful. Her gentleness of spirit managed to touch him in a way that I doubt anyone had ever achieved before, and the song spoke to someone he needed badly: healing. We can't forget that Sandor came to her bedroom that night, broken, afraid and alone. These aren't things that he would have admitted to anyone, but they were there nonetheless and caused him to react violently when he felt that Sansa had rejected him. The song was about healing those emotions, and this is why he began to cry, because he was being made to confront his demons through Sansa's recognition and forgiveness almost.

GRRM could have written the scene without adding in the face touching, to be honest, since it wasn't what brought about his transformation that night. However, I think 1. he wanted to establish Sandor's crying and 2. to set up a very intimate connection between them for future significance.

I see that you think the cloak had a symbolic meaning and that's why he ripped it like that. This is very much what I thought, I couldn't agree more; but I had started to think that I tend to attach a hidden symbolism to many things about this two characters and their interactions. Sometimes I think I read too much into it. I'm glad to know you have noticed the same things and your interpretation is very much like mine :)

I love the way you expressed it, specially the parts that I've highlighted, but I agree with every line in your post. :bowdown:

However, it seems the cloak symbolizes something different for her, because she kept it, she kept it in her hope chest, together with her summer dresses, as if she was keeping it to bring it out when the summer comes again and winter finally ends. As if there was hope for a new summer, for a new world after all the horrible things that are about to come.

If there's any foreshadowing here, it could mean that there will be hope for her and also for him, at least there's a wish in her heart for him.

It's very strange for her to wrap herself in his cloak after the threatening way he treated her. Her reaction is strange: anyone would have been utterly terrified in her situation, but she didn't seem to fear him enough, as if she knew, somehow, that he couldn't really harm her, however deranged he was. Otherwise, it would have been absurd for her to wrap herself in her agressor's cloak.

She can see in him what nobody else can, and maybe she can really see him for what and who he is. He's desperate to be seen because people only see the monster he resembles and can't see the man behind the Hound persona. Sansa could seen him ,though. It was too dark to see his face but, in the dark, she could really see him twice (when he told her his past story and during the battle), she could see Sandor ,the man, and not the Hound.

[littlespider]

This comes up frequently, but it's also the second time he's chucked his cloak at her. Most read this as symbolic of an eventual marriage or future romance between them.

Then again, Littlefinger has also given her his cloak, so...

[clover]

Just finished an Arya POV with Sandor and the ferry journey. Well, well...got a lot of nice tidbits in that one.

It sounded almost like he reveled in telling Arya finally that he was taking her to her mother and Robb. Loved it! I wonder why he didn't tell her sooner. He sounded like he felt good and was in a humorous mood while reassuring her in a way, and then the usual bluster of telling her he was just sick of her trying to hurt him or getting away. Okay...sure... Maybe he was still concerned at an earlier point that if Beric and the gang caught up with him it would ruin his plans, so he didn't tell her sooner.

He really wanted in with the Starks. With the dialogue it really seems that he just didn't want to be with anyone or anything Lannister anymore. And yeah, the gold I am sure is an issue or any other type of reward. He does have to survive, of course.

And he tells Arya he doesn't want to hear the name Mycah anymore. Guilt? I think so.

And it is apparant that somebody had to get a few Sansa mentions in there and couldn't help himself. I have to think about a few things before I post more. So much info in this POV but the mind is still whirling.

It is making me think again about the cloak, cheek, song...the brilliant writing makes you try to deconstruct and take everything piece by piece over and over again.

[brashcandy]

This comes up frequently, but it's also the second time he's chucked his cloak at her. Most read this as symbolic of an eventual marriage or future romance between them.

Then again, Littlefinger has also given her his cloak, so...

Well, technically speaking, the second time he doesn't really chuck at it her. He throws it on the ground and she picks it up later on. I do think their cloak exchanges are symbolic of marriage/romance, because unlike what happens with LF and Tyrion - where they give Sansa their cloaks, in the 2 cloak scenes with Sandor, his cloak is performing a very active role of protecting her decency and offering her comfort. Particularly with the BBB scene, she chooses wrap herself in it. There is no outside compulsion, no need to cover her body etc. She's in the familiar enclave of her bedroom with presumbably lots of other sheets around, but this is what she chooses to drape over herself. I do think the myriad cloak exchanges and cloaks in general surrounding Sansa are fascinating. In the next chapter of the Sansa re-read thread, I'll be talking a bit about the symbolism with Barristan's cloak during Joff's court session.

[Lemon Cake]

Then again, Littlefinger has also given her his cloak, so...

Yes, that's why I can't get too excited over the possible symbolism of the cloaks, even though it is interesting to talk about.

Symbolism aside, though, I do agree with Brash that it's significant that she chooses to wrap herself in his cloak the second time. I don't know if it's necessarily a hint at future romance, more just a sign of how much she associated him with protection. Still, it's interesting.

One thing's for sure, if she ever chooses to wrap herself in Littlefinger's cloak, I am going to be seriously worried. :stillsick:

[littlespider]

Well, technically speaking, the second time he doesn't really chuck at it her. He throws it on the ground and she picks it up later on. I do think their cloak exchanges are symbolic of marriage/romance, because unlike what happens with LF and Tyrion - where they give Sansa their cloaks, in the 2 cloak scenes with Sandor, his cloak is performing a very active role of protecting her decency and offering her comfort. Particularly with the BBB scene, she chooses wrap herself in it. There is no outside compulsion, no need to cover her body etc. She's in the familiar enclave of her bedroom with presumbably lots of other sheets around, but this is what she chooses to drape over herself. I do think the myriad cloak exchanges and cloaks in general surrounding Sansa are fascinating. In the next chapter of the Sansa re-read thread, I'll be talking a bit about the symbolism with Barristan's cloak during Joff's court session.

Yes, and I'd also guess that it's hot as all get-out because it's King's Landing in summer/autumn and everything is burning to bits outside -- that's why it strikes me as weird that she snuggles under this wool cloak (in addition to the blood splatters).

I occasionally look for casual cloak exchanges between men and women/girls in the books (not counting weddings), since I'm obsessive when trying to look for this kind of symbolism. So in addition to the Hound/Sansa cloaks (which were both white, hmm), and Littlefinger giving Sansa his cloak, I can think of two others:

--Tyrion remembers wrapping his cloak around Tysha when he first met her, since her dress was ripped. This is before they're married. We all know how that turned out. (i.e., hot 13 year old dwarf sex)

--When Gilly asks Jon to rescue her at Craster's, she's wearing Sam's gigantic black cloak, since Sam has given it to her. We all know how that turned out. (i.e., hot lactation fetish & fluffy man sex)

So, barring slews of other casual cloak exchanges that do not result in hot [insert yer fetish here] sex, it really does seem to indicate that the future is ripe with the possibility of Sansa doing the nasty with either Sandor or Littlefinger. But maybe twice as likely with Sandor, because twice the number of cloaks are involved. And it's significant that she chooses to shelter under Sandor's cloak, whereas Littlefinger wraps it around her shoulders, though it's a welcome presence at the time. This would be fitting with the fact that, at least in retrospect, she actually seems to like the idea of romantic attention from the one man (even though the attention is imaginary in the misremembered kiss), whereas she is clearly uncomfortable with the other's attentions.