Sandor V.16

[Starbird]

Nice point yourself, BC, and well said!

there is something in that repulsion that attracts, something that doesn't want to look or discover, but can't help seeing or finding.

I think what this basically comes down to is exposure, to open oneself up for rejection while hoping for acceptance. Sandor almost demands that Sansa reject him by forcing her to look at his face. Then, to everyone's surprise, she decides the anger in his eyes is the worst thing, and commiserates with him over Gregor's abuse. So she doesn't reject him and, despite his gruff nature, she actually begins to assimilate some of his opinions (knights vs. true knights, at the start, saving herself some pain, later). Likewise, her compassion prevents him from rejecting her, and he actually begins to protect her while (as much as possible) buffing away her naive notions of the world.

Each time they interact, possibly with the exception of that time on the serpentine, they expose themselves a little more, and move more towards a middle ground. I think this is what's so fascinating about them. Are they going to continue to inch together, or will her experiences or his personality create an insurmountable divide? I'm hoping for continued intertwining of their beliefs and mutual acceptance, of course. :)

[bgona]

anyways, about the riot hbo scene, i found this video

which indeed not onlt confirms the no-horses fact but it also left me wondering how will the hound rescue sansa now? by the end of the video he is only focusing on joffrey, so maybe when everyone is save and they realize the stark girl is missing sandor will just curse before anyone even has time to think on wha that really means, and then he'll go looking for her only to find her trapped by an angry mob in a corner..?

Please that doesn´t mean that they are going to take off also that scene!!!!!

[headtrip_honey]

Doubtful. Some guy snuck on set and got a picture with Sophie, who was "roughed up" looking from the riot scene (among other photos and video he took), and the caption for that picture was, roughly translated, "I rescued her, not Clegane!!"

Which intimates to me that he does indeed rescue her.

There are no horses due to:

a.) Sophie is violently allergic

b.) Corralling that many in such a small space is dangerous and just wouldn't work with the way Dubrovnik is built

[childofsummer]

I agree, Starbird. Sansa is afraid of being hurt physically, while Sandor is afraid of being rejected. The interplay of their fears (of each other) and their mutual attraction makes their scenes so emotionally charged that we can't look away. Sansa rejects his kiss (or at least, she thinks he is going to kiss her), and he reacts by holding a dagger to her throat, which is what terrifies her. I think it's a sign of her increasing emotional maturity that she recognizes his fear for what it is and calms it by touching his cheek in such an intimate way.

[zalim]

Thankyou, I am glad it made sense. I should just like to say I like Sansa more, and indeed only like Sandor because she likes him... It is Sansa's love (which Sandor in no way deserves, since he was often rude to her) for Sandor (who is an awful sinful person who murdered a child and laughed about afterwards) that begins the process that leads towards his salvation.

This can be compared to the Christian idea that the love of God (and therefore his forgiveness of our sins) is a free gift (grace) that sinful humanity does not deserve, but God freely gives anyway. My Anglican youth group leader explained to me that even so, because we love God in turn, we do good things and obey God's laws, because this makes God happy. He even used the example that, if you have a boyfriend or husband (or man has a girlfriend or wife) you do things for them that make them happy because you love them. Of course a Calvinist would say that, since salvation is predetermined, good works are symptom of the fact that one has already been saved (been awhile since I studied theology so i am hazy here).

This is all Protestant of course, so probably not true to the Middle Ages (the hey day for courtly love)...

but paraphrasing redcandle: courtly love espoused the idea that love for a woman and performing good deeds to earn her love could 'save' a man. the Church considered courtly love heresy because it encouraged the idea that salvation could be gotten from mortal love.

As salvation is only supposed to come from God.

So one could view that Sandor's redemptive acts (helping Arya sorta, digging graves, his eventual self sacrificing death fighting Ser Robert Strong) are a symptom of Sansa's love for him. But since Sansa is not God or a terrifyingly powerful warg... it would be more accurate to say that his redemptive acts are symptom of his love for Sansa, in that his love for her makes him want to be a better person.

However it is Sansa's love for Sandor that starts off this process of redemption: she confronts him with his sins before the battle (you're an awful man and you're going to hell), she then prays for him during the Blackwater, that night he comes to her room, possibly intendind to rape her (we don't know) and he snaps out of whatever the hell he was thinking of doing when she touches his face (symbolic of platonic love, acceptance and forgiveness) and sings the Mother's Hymn ( a song about love for a female type deity making the world a kinder place). He wanders around drunk for awhile and (sorta) cares for Arya, who is Sansa's little sister (and he refers to Arya as 'the younger sister" not "the Stark Girl" or "Lord Stark's daughter" but as "the little sister)...

Then he gets rescued by the Elder Brother (who was once a sinner worse than he) possibly miraculously, and has so far spent atleast 4 months with the Westerosi equivalent of the Cistercians. so where was I...

I would say that this if Sansa didn't reciprocate his feelings, I would find Sandor incredibly creepy (even with the love redemption arc). Yet it is Sansa (in her platonic love or compassion for him) who begins the process that leads to this redemption, and it is through his redemption and change of character that he has experienced since then (with Arya and especially on the Quiet Isle) and future acts of heroism on Sansa's behalf, well these good deeds would make him worthy of her physical love.

It is worth noting that in ASOS she already had physical feelings for him (the sexy dream) but if he appeared on the Gates of the Moon tomorrow*, he wouldn't be worthy of any such consumation, as he needs to repent more and perform a heroic dead on her behalf, in repentence for his often rude or creepy behaviour towards her in AGOT (breaking down Jeyne's door) and ACOK (his crack about her father's legs etc).

*if Kevan's final chapter in ADWD is approximately 7-8 months after the Red Wedding, then Sansa is still 13 anyway so that's gross.

Apparently (according to Loathsomewarg over at livejournal)during her class's discussion of the The Song of Roland, the issue of masculinity and the idea of traditional heroes came up. Somebody in the class mentioned a part in the text where the issue of religious acts in monasteries in comparison to religious acts on the battlefield comes up (for those of you who haven't read the Chanson, there's a bishop who helps Roland in the fight against the Saracens and the whole text can be seen as propaganda for the crusades), and the professor brought up the fact that apparantly in a lot of medieval romances and plays (she mentioned the William of Orange cycles specifically), there is an actual trope where the hero, and even sometimes the anti-hero, (*such as Sandor) ends up doing a stint in a monastery as a part of his journey to becoming the typical chivalrous romantic hero. So it's all very interesting.

sorry for the late reply. I got banned for saying that sandor is dead during my earlier posts.

Prob pissed of some mod who is sandors fan =)) =)) but only a fool would think that they can change my mind by banning me for giving my

opinion.

anyway i read your post. I will start a reread from GOT very soon and i have your post saved up so i will be concentrating on sandors

character more this time. To be honest, last time i didnt pay too much attention to his character but the things you mentioned,

i never thought it like that, hell i didnt even see anything between sansa and sandor, the only thing i noticed was, her hate for him and his lust for her but

i will be paying more attention to both of them and all the theories i read here.

[bgona]

sorry for the late reply. I got banned for saying that sandor is dead during my earlier posts.

Prob pissed of some mod who is sandors fan =)) =)) but only a fool would think that they can change my mind by banning me for giving my

opinion.

anyway i read your post. I will start a reread from GOT very soon and i have your post saved up so i will be concentrating on sandors

character more this time. To be honest, last time i didnt pay too much attention to his character but the things you mentioned,

i never thought it like that, hell i didnt even see anything between sansa and sandor, the only thing i noticed was, her hate for him and his lust for her but

i will be paying more attention to both of them and all the theories i read here.

Sorry for doesn´t agree. But II can´t see hate. I see fear, but never hate. She can hate him if you read how she speaks of him.

Anyway I think that anybody can say whatever they want and believe (of course: always in a proper and correct manner).

[Lemon Cake]

Yes, it was fear rather than hatred. It takes quite a lot to make Sansa Stark hate you. Chopping off her father's head or beating her bloody will do it, but otherwise, she's going to take a more gentle view of you. Arya, though, Arya definitely hated him.

That said, I do think Sansa disliked his surface personality. He was rude and crude, things that Sansa greatly dislikes. She even said that she hated the way he talked. She came to appreciate him for other reasons (his protection of her, his brutal but reliable honesty, the compassion he inspired in her because of the story about his face), but I don't think she much liked the rudeness and crudeness. That's yet another reason why I can't see any happily-married-with-puppies future for them; if they hook up at all, it will be temporary and bittersweet. Then he'll go off to die a glorious death and she'll marry Pod someone else.

[littlespider]

Then he'll go off to die a glorious death and she'll marry Pod someone else.

:commie:

Yeah, I don't think Sansa ever actually hates him (Arya definitely does though!). She's frightened of him and thinks he's kind of gross, at least in her first encounter with him. She does say things ("you're hateful") though, that might give that impression, but I get the sense that, like Lemoncake said, that this is a reaction to the really terrible things he says rather than her overall sense of him as a person.

"You're hateful" literally means "you are full of hate." This is quite true of him.

Good to know, zalim, that you're interested in reading more about our Hound!

[clover]

Ok, let me pass on my day at work.

There are a bunch of us reading the series together. We do this with other books and tv series too. I was told I had better read Ice and Fire because knowing me, I would love it. LOL!

So I picked up the rest of the series before the holidays. Well, two of us are on book three and the rest are savoring and just started book two or finished Book one.

Let me tell you guys about my encounter today.

The person who I adore the most and is a litarary analytical genius, scholar, etc. and tough. Not to be swayed and the most objective, last to weigh jugdment person I know, stopped me in my tracks today.

The one person I couldn't share any of my post readings or my own musings with because they refuse to be spoiled, turns around out of the blue and tells me...

While I am on my way to the bathroom, no less...

"Hey, listen, about the Hound..." (This person only finished Book one this week.) And I received two good pieces of advice.

By the way, my ears pricked up very much like a dog...

"It is all in the adjectives. Forget what the narrator tells you. Look beyond."

And the killer... "There is goodness there...it is there."

Totally awesome and a very productive day at work. LOL! And I swear with other books. My co-worker is the Obi Wan of literature.

And I just thought...dude, if you only knew... And I did say."Just finish the second one and we'll talk."

[Ednawolf]

Well, I broke down and opened a twitter account just so that I could follow SuddenlySandor. Yes, I am lame.

@Littlespider I love how you insist that Sansa will one day marry sweet, earnest Pod. As scared as she is of Ser Ilyn Payne, I'd be surprised if she could ever find it in her to marry a Payne... as distant as the relationship may be. And technically wouldn't Pod also be too low-born for her? It would be funny to see Sandor jealous of Pod. Do you think he ever felt feelings of jealousy towards Joff back in the day when Sansa was "wet with love" over the Turd?

[littlespider]

@Littlespider I love how you insist that Sansa will one day marry sweet, earnest Pod. As scared as she is of Ser Ilyn Payne, I'd be surprised if she could ever find it in her to marry a Payne... as distant as the relationship may be. And technically wouldn't Pod also be too low-born for her? It would be funny to see Sandor jealous of Pod. Do you think he ever felt feelings of jealousy towards Joff back in the day when Sansa was "wet with love" over the Turd?

She will so totally marry Pod. He is in love with her; it is science fact.

Pod is definitely too low-born for her if we're thinking of politically beneficial marriages for her (as is Sandor). I think it is definitely possible that she would be cautious at first around any Payne, even such a sweet and perfect Payne as Mr. Podrick. I can't remember though -- was she cautious around him in SoS? I know she talked to him a few times.

My guess is that if/when Brienne and Pod do catch up with her, Sansa may actually think that Pod's presence will indicate that, whatever Brienne says, their real plan is to drag her back to KL and hand her over to Cersei. She's become increasingly untrusting (understandably so).

[Starbird]

Sorry, LS, I don't see Pod and Sansa getting together. They would've been cute together when she first got to KL but she's too astute for him now. Besides, she's come to appreciate Sandor's ferocity. If they wash out his mouth with soap while he's on the QI, there'd be hope for them. Even if they don't, she'd probably feel more comfy with someone who could protect her. Poor Pod! He and Penny might work.

[clover]

And I see it, the appeal, and Martin threw Pod in her way but...

I feel that Pod is too milquetoast for Sansa. I feel Sandor is for her, but Martin's world also doesn't always work that way either.

Ah, the dilemma...

[1234567]

Pod is lovely and sweet and like Tommen and his kittens, so totally toast. :crying:

Although he has been there since the first book, so you never know, but unfortunately I think Pod falls into the Sweetrobin category of being too weak for Sansa. Also like Tyrion, I think she would pity him and pity is the death of desire.

[littlespider]

Just y'all wait. Come TWoW Pod will be a foul-mouthed bruiser after having saved both Brienne and Jaime and single-handedly taken on and defeated the entire BwB. Sansa will fall into Pod's arms after he and Dog take out Littlefinger. Luckily Septon Meribald will be right there to marry them. Then Sandor will roll up. *cue "forever alone" face*

trololololl

Seriously, though, my PodSan ship arose because I couldn't reconcile the numerous ways the SanSan ship made me uncomfortable. For what it's worth, though, I do think that all signs point to SanSan actually happening at some point before series' end. But whether it makes me unhappy or wins me over all depends on whether we can get the Martin of Books 1-3 back. Here's hoping, right?

Though on a non-shipping topic, Pod should really spend some time hanging out with Sandor. If that won't grow some hair on the poor kid's chest, I don't know what will.

[1234567]

Just y'all wait. Come TWoW Pod will be a foul-mouthed bruiser after having saved both Brienne and Jaime and single-handedly taken on and defeated the entire BwB. Sansa will fall into Pod's arms after he and Dog take out Littlefinger. Luckily Septon Meribald will be right there to marry them. Then Sandor will roll up. *cue "forever alone" face*

trololololl

Seriously, though, my PodSan ship arose because I couldn't reconcile the numerous ways the SanSan ship made me uncomfortable. For what it's worth, though, I do think that all signs point to SanSan actually happening at some point before series' end. But whether it makes me unhappy or wins me over all depends on whether we can get the Martin of Books 1-3 back.

Sigh.....five year gap.....sigh........on both counts. UberPod would be a sight to behold.

Recently I've wondered about GRRM's comments that he is surprised people like Sandor. Does anyone think it is possible that he devised the idea of Sansa and Sandor as a bittersweet thing because the character was not meant to be liked?

[brashcandy]

Sigh.....five year gap.....sigh........on both counts. UberPod would be a sight to behold.

Recently I've wondered about GRRM's comments that he is surprised people like Sandor. Does anyone think it is possible that he devised the idea of Sansa and Sandor as a bittersweet thing because the character was not meant to be liked?

I do wonder about this too. Did GRRM not realise that even from Book 1 he was setting up Sandor with a sympathetic backstory and nuanced characterisation via Sansa? Anyways, based on the foreshadowing, I have hope for San/San, but I do think all of the romances in the series will be bittersweet. It doesn't have to mean Sandor will die though - bittersweet could see him and Alayne going off on a life of anonymity and isolation.

[Ednawolf]

I think that GRRM thought he was being much more sly with Sandor's hidden good traits... the gentleness and protectiveness -- not anticipating the ease at which we would all be discussing these books on forums for the last 5-10 years. Wasn't the first book published in 1991-ish? I can't even imagine having discovered the series then and having to wait around 20 years -- obsessing over Sandor -- by the time the 5th book came out.

[1234567]

It doesn't have to mean Sandor will die though - bittersweet could see him and Alayne going off on a life of anonymity and isolation.

This is actually the only way (other than a brief affair) that I can see Sansa and Sandor ending up as a couple. If LF dies then Sansa still inherits the Fingers and the keep there. Sandor may get Clegane lands if he is pardoned. Neither seem that fun. The bitter part of this is that Sansa gives up everything she loves (her home, her family, pretty dresses, etc) for him.

Edit:

I think that GRRM thought he was being much more sly with Sandor's hidden good traits... the gentleness and protectiveness -- not anticipating the ease at which we would all be discussing these books on forums for the last 5-10 years. Wasn't the first book published in 1991-ish? I can't even imagine having discovered the series then and having to wait around 20 years -- obsessing over Sandor -- by the time the 5th book came out.

1996 and for what I remember of 1996, the internet was in it's infancy. Heck even in the early 2000's it wasn't what it is now. Really the only books that he would have been writing when the internet was an everyday part of life were AFFC and ADWD. The first three were out there way before things like this forum were an issue.

[Ednawolf]

I do wonder about this too. Did GRRM not realise that even from Book 1 he was setting up Sandor with a sympathetic backstory and nuanced characterisation via Sansa? Anyways, based on the foreshadowing, I have hope for San/San, but I do think all of the romances in the series will be bittersweet. It doesn't have to mean Sandor will die though - bittersweet could see him and Alayne going off on a life of anonymity and isolation.

Unless I'm forgetting someone, it seems like the Sandor / Sansa romance (if that's what it is) is the longest running and the only one to start in book one. That's why I think that if any of the romances come to fruition, it will be that one... like they're the Aragorn/Arwen of ASOIAF. But, yeah, it definitely could mean that Sansa would have to permanently become Alayne in order to live a life with Sandor.

Right now, though, I'm unclear on what Sansa wants. She thinks about the Hound and their kiss, but then also says things like she doesn't want to get married again.