Sandor V.16

[Starbird]

Yes. Truth be told, that's the only time his Manly Tears did not make me squirm with a mixture of pity and embarrassment for him.

:agree:

I'm still amazed that none of the other characters comment on or mock him for it. Especially when he's begging for someone to help him after his arm is burnt. How does that not effect his reputation? The closest thing we get to censure is Arya commenting that he cried like a baby, and later leaving him in disgust.

[Lemon Cake]

I'm still amazed that none of the other characters comment on or mock him for it. Especially when he's begging for someone to help him after his arm is burnt. How does that not effect his reputation?

I guess it really helps to be seven feet tall, muscled like a bull, and a Clegane. No one's going to mock you for a few Manly Tears if they think you might pull out your sword and split them in half once you've wiped your nose and dried your eyes.

On the other hand, his tendency to succumb to Manly Tears does explain why he was carrying around a hankie on the show. I always thought that was a bit weird, tbh. The Hound, carrying a hankie? Wut.

[Solaris]

He wouldn't have just been risking negative consequences for himself, though. If he'd been caught standing up for her, it could very well have resulted in even more pain and humiliation for Sansa. Who knows what sadistic shit the Turd would have gleefully subjected her to if he knew Sandor had a... "thing" for Sansa and was trying to protect her. At the very least, he would have brutally ridiculed her for it.

:agree:

but I do completely agree that Sandor did not do enough, and he knows it. I understand why he's later wracked with guilt over it. But at the same time, I have some sympathy for him; he was in a really difficult position, and helping her too overtly could have opened up a very nasty can of worms for them both. That said, he should have risked it when he saw her being stripped and having the shit beaten out of her.

:agree:

Going on a bit of a tangent here, but it's interesting that in AFFC, there are three people Sansa specifically remembers as having helped her -- Tyrion, Sandor, and Garlan Tyrell -- and yet not one of them did nearly as much as he could have and should have. Tyrion and Sandor go without saying, but Garlan Tyrell didn't do much either. I'm a big Garlan fan, and I love the scene where he comforts Sansa after her wedding (to this date, he is the only character in the series to make Sansa laugh a genuine laugh since Ned's execution; oh, Garlan :wub: ... ahem, sorry, my fangirlism popped its head up, just now). But beyond that, he didn't do jack shit for her; he never tried to make her plight easier, or help her escape King's Landing, and apart from that one moment at the wedding feast, he apparently joined his family in ignoring Sansa. Poor Sansa. No wonder the few kind acts she received stand out so much in her memory. :( [/irrelevant tangent]

Not irrelevant per se.... what you are witnessing is 'Sansasense', I am absolutely certain the girl is an empath. She instinctively knows who truly means kindness and who doesn't. It took the death of Lady for that ability to start evolving and out of all the people she has interacted with she knows instinctively that Sandor was caring and wasn't actually deliberately going out of his way to terrorise her - he just cant communicate like a normal person. I think it's genetic & upbrining. There is no other rational explination for her to be so damn selective otherwise, especially considering Sandors actual behavior IMO :)

[Starbird]

I guess it really helps to be seven feet tall, muscled like a bull, and a Clegane. No one's going to mock you for a few Manly Tears if they think you might pull out your sword and split them in half once you've wiped your nose and dried your eyes.

On the other hand, his tendency to succumb to Manly Tears does explain why he was carrying around a hanky on the show. I always thought that was a bit weird, tbh. The Hound, carrying a hankie? Wut.

Ha ha, true, but that's total gossip fodder. You know the BWB, after he left, was like, "Man, did you see him cry??"

[Lemon Cake]

Ha ha, true, but that's total gossip fodder. You know the BWB, after he left, was like, "Man, did you see him cry??"

Totally.

That's the only time in the books he cries in front of a group of people, right? The other two were in front of only Sansa and then only Arya. Or am I forgetting one?

I wonder if he ever cried in front of the Lannister guardsmen in all those years of service. If so, I bet that when they were very, very certain Sandor was not around and couldn't see or hear them, they held competitions to see who could do the best impression of the Hound bawling. Maybe Tyrion entered the competition once and won, and that's why Sandor hates him! :P

[littlespider]

I'm still amazed that none of the other characters comment on or mock him for it. Especially when he's begging for someone to help him after his arm is burnt. How does that not effect his reputation? The closest thing we get to censure is Arya commenting that he cried like a baby, and later leaving him in disgust.

the only people that have observed Manly Tears™ (copyrighted, all restrictions apply) are Sansa -- not the mocking type, Arya -- who will scorn him but not mock him, and then the BwB. Beric's not going to mock him because he's been deaded. Thoros actually seems sympathetic. Lem seems like the mocking type, though. But Lem also seems like the type to realize that the Hound would seriously mess him up.

Manly Tears™ are fun once or twice. He gets a pass for the third time since he was sick and dying. But enough already. Gravedigguh hopefully is on some kind of spiritual mood stabilizer so the waterworks will be turned off (at least in narrative).

Then he could focus on being a real badass. You know, like my man Victarion. :devil: *ducks, runs*

[brashcandy]

Manly Tears™ are fun once or twice. He gets a pass for the third time since he was sick and dying. But enough already. Gravedigguh hopefully is on some kind of spiritual mood stabilizer so the waterworks will be turned off (at least in narrative).

Then he could focus on being a real badass. You know, like my man Victarion. :devil: *ducks, runs*

You know Victarion was probably crying buckets of tears when he beat his wife to death :eek:

[littlespider]

You know Victarion was probably crying buckets of tears when he beat his wife to death :eek:

I know right? It's very terrible.

Seriously, I don't know why I can't just dismiss Victarion for being the terrible, terrible guy that he is. Is there a Vic Addicts Anonymous support group? LIke, I need to get on a 12 step program or something, transition to somebody who's an evil badass but slightly less hardcore than Victarion.

[1234567]

I know right? It's very terrible.

Seriously, I don't know why I can't just dismiss Victarion for being the terrible, terrible guy that he is. Is there a Vic Addicts Anonymous support group? LIke, I need to get on a 12 step program or something, transition to somebody who's an evil badass but slightly less hardcore than Victarion.

Yeah, there is something oddly attractive about "Mr Winds of Song". :wub: I think he is just such a comedy villain type that he gets a pass on all his nastyness. Also oddly, his POV helped. Especially his unintentional funniness: I had one god, now I have two!!!!! As a character he is like the Wylie Coyote of Westeros and will undoubtly end as a Dragon snackette. This does not trouble me.

Sandor however I am strangely emotionally invested in. I would like to see his character redeemed and have some measure of happiness because he has had a shit time of it and his personality when he is not being a complete arsehole is rather nice (in a never in RL sort of way). I even like the manly tears.

[Lemon Cake]

While we're talking about Victarion, I have to say that the biggest turnoff for me where he's concerned (and there are a lot of things that turn me off to him) is his insistence that he had no choice but to beat his wife to death, that she made him do it. :ack:

And yet... I hate to admit it, but the Hound had a similar moment. He tells Arya at one point (paraphrasing), "I never hit your sister. So don't make me beat you." My first thought upon reading that line was, "Zomg he really cannot shut up about Sansa, HE BRINGS EVERYTHING BACK TO HER." And then, after I squashed the ridiculous shipper in me back down, my second thought was, "Yeah, Sandor, if you end up beating the tiny little girl, it's all her fault because she made you, right? Asshole."

Granted, Sandor's attitude here is nowhere near as offensive as Victarion's, because (1) he never actually hits Arya, and (2) even if he had hit her, he wouldn't have beat her badly enough to kill her, and (3) if he had, I don't think he'd really look back on it and feel sorry for himself because the scrawny little girl made him do it.

But, it still leaves a bad taste in my mouth. :|

Sorry for the grumpy post, I just had to get that out of my system.

[littlespider]

Good point Lemoncake. In both cases it's a version of "Boo-hoo! Because I have no free will, it's someone else's decision that made me (will make me) do [insert bad thingy here]." That is, they're abdicating moral responsibility by assigning that responsibilty onto another entity. Note to Victarion and Sandor: your grade in upright moral decision-making is FAIL. But Victarion, you get an F double minus. (As a side-note, we're not even going to get into the subject of Tyrion's grade in this course, since calculating it might very well make the universe implode.)

But, at the same time it adds a dimension to both of these characters, because people use this tactic all the time in order to justify their stupid or unethical actions.

[jarl the climber]

The thing we have to keep in mind about Vic is that most of what he does is based on what he believes is the right morality, the drowned god or the code of the Ironborn, its kind of interesting that Davos was disturbed all the way to Eastwatch by the screaming of Lord Florent and believed that the problem Sallas fleet had on the return trip was due to this. Vic reports hearing the the voices of the girls he burned in the wind blowing him to Dany but he hears it as joyful, I think Vic might get exactly what he wants and end up regreting it.

[Villemo]

That's the only time in the books he cries in front of a group of people, right? The other two were in front of only Sansa and then only Arya. Or am I forgetting one?

i'm not sure, but when he told Sansa history of his scars she could hear his ragged breathing, but it was dark so he was hidden from Sansa's eyes :devil:

the only people that have observed Manly Tears™ (copyrighted, all restrictions apply)

:bowdown: :rofl:

[1234567]

In both cases it's a version of "Boo-hoo! Because I have no free will, it's someone else's decision that made me (will make me) do [insert bad thingy here]."

Yeah, that always came across as Sandor bullshitting. It's still hellish to threaten a little girl, but even Arya recognises that he won't follow through.

[Lemon Cake]

Yeah, that always came across as Sandor bullshitting. It's still hellish to threaten a little girl, but even Arya recognises that he won't follow through.

Yeah, I know I'm taking it too seriously. It just rubbed me the wrong way, I guess.

And btw, it is SO much easier to like Victarion when I imagine him as Wile E. Coyote.

[clover]

I just read that scene for the first time and it was difficult. Disturbing almost. Tearing at Sansa touching his cheek was moving. And you wonder what he was thinking exactly...I still do.

But this. He was mocking and funny and cold and the sarcasm was dripping from his words and then he kicked Beric's ass.

Before that he's flippant that nobody wants to fight him. And commenting on Lem's "piss-colored" cloak, I almost choked on my coffee...He insulted three guys. So on one thread I put Sandor- 3, BWB - 0...LOL!

And I couldn't believe he cried? He held it together and it was adrenaline, brute force, but he was so mad and with survival mode kicking in he was able to defeat Beric, and I think it's not really the crying with me. But if you are going to cry plaintively and plead, almost beg, like that, I can't believe he held it together until he was finished and then he sees his arm and cries.

Damn, that is some self-control. Then he snapped.

[FacelessGirl]

I'm loving the comparisons between Sandor and Victarion. I feel these two have the most similarities, which is probably why I like their characters.

[1234567]

And btw, it is SO much easier to like Victarion when I imagine him as Wile E. Coyote.

He he he....I can see Euron going Beep Beep into a tunnel and Vicky running in after him, only to come back out plastered to the front of a train dragon. :lol:

Also I thought the perfect Vicky would be a mix of http://www.imdb.com/media/rm1473937408/nm0001803 and http://www.imdb.com/media/rm3252534784/tt1233301 . And as for Euron.....James Purefoy. :drool:

[R & R]

Am I alone in thinking that Sandor's ManlyTears™ were more a result of the Immolation Blues than any other psychological stress? Dude has serious issues with fire. He's *scared* of it. If Beric slayage occured via only hack 'n slash, sans flames, with maybe only some cuts rather than burns, I think we would have been witness to another instance of the Hound's raspin' laugh.

[Yvonesan]

It´s in the first Tyrion chapter in the books in AGoT.

Thanks. Re-reading it, I got the impression the Hound was laughing more at Tyrion than Joffrey, as he laughs after he warns him that Joff wouldn't forget it.

And then, after I squashed the ridiculous shipper in me back down, my second thought was, "Yeah, Sandor, if you end up beating the tiny little girl, it's all her fault because she made you, right? Asshole." Granted, Sandor's attitude here is nowhere near as offensive as Victarion's, because (1) he never actually hits Arya, and (2) even if he had hit her, he wouldn't have beat her badly enough to kill her, and (3) if he had, I don't think he'd really look back on it and feel sorry for himself because the scrawny little girl made him do it.

I know what it's like when you're left with another impression, it's hard to get rid of the feeling it leaves you with but I never thought he really intended to hit Arya. I think his words came across as more of an empty threat, kind of in the way we all make empty threats at some point in our lives ...although since this is Sandor Clegane, you can never be sure I suppose. That's probably more of an issue than his actual intentions.