Sandor V.16

[littlespider]

UberPod would be a sight to behold.

UBERPOD!!!!!

Though UberPod isn't the only casualty of the five year gap. Preserving that gap would have solved one and a half of my big-time reservations about SanSan: her age/experience and (half) of his rage.

Recently I've wondered about GRRM's comments that he is surprised people like Sandor. Does anyone think it is possible that he devised the idea of Sansa and Sandor as a bittersweet thing because the character was not meant to be liked?

I may have mentioned this before, but I came across a SSM comment that actually really worried me. Martin was apparently really surprised to learn about how unpopular Dorkstar was. His reason?? He had figured that since "bad boy" characters like Sandor Clegane and Theon Greyjoy had proved so very popular, then he would write another one. Namely, Dorkstar. This misperception about why bad boys like Theon and Sandor are popular, and that they could be replicated easily by popping in a cliched, half-formulated cardboard cutout stick figure thingy with BAD FUCKING HAIR and an even worse tagline confirmed to me that it doesn't seem like we're working with the same Martin who had such a deft grasp of character dynamism and complexity as the one in books 1-3.

Theon and Sandor are popular because they're both horrible, horrible assholes who, at some level, struggle with (Sandor) or against (Theon) a strong sense of decency. They come from backgrounds that explain marvelously well why they are assholes. They are fully developed and psychological vibrant characters. Also, I would like to see them make out with each other.

Worst case scenario: because Sandor is popular, Martin gives him a ton of air time in the next two books, but for the wrong reasons. We lose character depth in exchange for more air time. Martin has him and Sansa bang without taking the time and doing the very careful balancing act that involves addressing some of the very, very fucked up dynamics that existed between them in CoK.

Best case scenario: Martin gets back into the game fuh realz and we return to the brilliant world of the first three books. When we see Sandor again, however he has changed is psychologically realistic and believable. (Since I am perverse I am most interested in seeing how this plays out IRT his spiritual life.) If he and Sansa get together, it happens with a completely different, even reversed dynamic, than that under which their interactions in Kl played out. He capitalizes on a human and emotional connection that has been building between them since book 1. Sansa remembers things properly. Hound is all sorry and shit. If there is bangage, please all ye gods, keep it classy and let it happen off screen, because I don't want to be traumatized by a Martinesque description of a big, veiny cock.

But my main worry is that our beloved Sandor will turn into an annoying cliche of his former self. I will pray very hard for this not to happen. Perhaps sacrifice some bunnies to the Stranger or something.

[littlespider]

One other note: both George and Parris have on occasion gone on the record as saying stuff like "we had no idea people could feel sympathy for [character x or y] because he's not really written like that" or "really? that [uber-popular theory] never occurred to me!"

I think they're trolling, just a little bit.

[brashcandy]

Unless I'm forgetting someone, it seems like the Sandor / Sansa romance (if that's what it is) is the longest running and the only one to start in book one. That's why I think that if any of the romances come to fruition, it will be that one... like they're the Aragorn/Arwen of ASOIAF. But, yeah, it definitely could mean that Sansa would have to permanently become Alayne in order to live a life with Sandor.

Right now, though, I'm unclear on what Sansa wants. She thinks about the Hound and their kiss, but then also says things like she doesn't want to get married again.

Nope, not forgetting anyone. Their relationship certainly didn't start out that way, but gradually we've seen more hints and suggestions that it could end in a romance. I feel it's the one where GRRM has been most careful, and has taken the time to develop delicately. He brought them to the brink in the BBB scene but then pulled back and has delayed any further interaction for three books now. A conclusion has to happen, and when it does, I'm expecting fireworks ;) oops - not the wisest choice of words - sorry Sandor! :frown5:

[Candor]

Theon and Sandor are popular because they're both horrible, horrible assholes who, at some level, struggle with (Sandor) or against (Theon) a strong sense of decency. They come from backgrounds that explain marvelously well why they are assholes. They are fully developed and psychological vibrant characters. Also, I would like to see them make out with each other.

;)

But yes! I was just discussing the books with my Physics lab group (Thermal Energy -> Westeros? - sometimes I wonder how our minds wander like that). One of them is just getting to the end of ACOK, and she hates Theon. Lolz, didn't we all, a little at least, at that time? I told her he gets more symapthetic, but she's still upset over thinking he killed Bran and Rickon so she wasn't buying it, but the point is..........yes! The comparison is definitely there. Assholes who have an inner conflict (Jaime might be another, but I'm thinking he was just sorta Born That Way :lol: rather than being background influenced). Shocking but I like all of these guys.

[1234567]

UBERPOD!!!!!

Though UberPod isn't the only casualty of the five year gap. Preserving that gap would have solved one and a half of my big-time reservations about SanSan: her age/experience and (half) of his rage.

Tell me about it. Much as I love the books, the timeline is atrocious. If Westeros really is the size of South America, then the War of the Five Kings should have taken 2-3 years at least to work its self out before we got to the Red Wedding stage.

I may have mentioned this before, but I came across a SSM comment that actually really worried me. Martin was apparently really surprised to learn about how unpopular Dorkstar was. His reason?? He had figured that since "bad boy" characters like Sandor Clegane and Theon Greyjoy had proved so very popular, then he would write another one. Namely, Dorkstar.

That anime wanna be? Honestly Dorkstar should just trundle off and borrow Rhaegar's hair straighteners and eye liner.

Theon and Sandor are popular because they're both horrible, horrible assholes who, at some level, struggle with (Sandor) or against (Theon) a strong sense of decency. They come from backgrounds that explain marvelously well why they are assholes. They are fully developed and psychological vibrant characters. Also, I would like to see them make out with each other.

Exactly they are both very much a product of their background but have the grains of something more substantial to them. And.....make out.....with each other........NOooooooo. Theon may have been gelded, but I refuse to believe even he would accept life if his hair was dyed ginger.

Worst case scenario: because Sandor is popular, Martin gives him a ton of air time in the next two books, but for the wrong reasons. We lose character depth in exchange for more air time. Martin has him and Sansa bang without taking the time and doing the very careful balancing act that involves addressing some of the very, very fucked up dynamics that existed between them in CoK.

Please no, that does have to be addressed, although given that Sansa seems to think Tyrion was kind (when absolute asshole comes to mind) I have a feeling you are correct.

Best case scenario: Martin gets back into the game fuh realz and we return to the brilliant world of the first three books. When we see Sandor again, however he has changed is psychologically realistic and believable. (Since I am perverse I am most interested in seeing how this plays out IRT his spiritual life.) If he and Sansa get together, it happens with a completely different, even reversed dynamic, than that under which their interactions in Kl played out. If there is bangage, please all ye gods, keep it classy and let it happen off screen.

I really hope so, and fade to black.

[littlespider]

;)

But yes! I was just discussing the books with my Physics lab group (Thermal Energy -> Westeros? - sometimes I wonder how our minds wander like that).

Nerd.

One of them is just getting to the end of ACOK, and she hates Theon. Lolz, didn't we all, a little at least, at that time?

Yes, this is a common and thankfully temporary phase of Acute IHeartTheon Syndrome.

Assholes who have an inner conflict (Jaime might be another, but I'm thinking he was just sorta Born That Way :lol: rather than being background influenced). Shocking but I like all of these guys.

this is exactly it -- assholes who have inner conflict, and who have the capacity to change. Jaime's different. I don't think, as of yet, that he's all that conflicted, unlike the other two. Jaime is still a multi-dimensional character. I guess what I was so irritated with in the last two books is that we got so many additional POVs that were these flat, one trick characters that didn't have the rich psychological depth. (IMO the exceptions being Brienne and Victarion but I TOTES understand those who dislike these characters. And even Brienne and Victarion, though they were well-written, were not cut from the same stuff as the POVs in the first three books.)

[Candor]

Tell me about it. Much as I love the books, the timeline is atrocious. If Westeros really is the size of South America, then the War of the Five Kings should have taken 2-3 years at least to work its self out before we got to the Red Wedding stage.

That anime wanna be? Honestly Dorkstar should just trundle off and borrow Rhaegar's hair straighteners and eye liner.

YES! The war seemed to be over before it started. Kings were rising and dropping like hotcakes. But I suppose, suspend your disbelief.

Hey now, I like anime.

[1234567]

Hey now, I like anime.

Same here. Escaflowne is still one of my favourite series, but I don't like it in my fantasy books.

[Candor]

Nerd.

Yes, this is a common and thankfully temporary phase of Acute IHeartTheon Syndrome.

this is exactly it -- assholes who have inner conflict, and who have the capacity to change. Jaime's different. I don't think, as of yet, that he's all that conflicted, unlike the other two. Jaime is still a multi-dimensional character. I guess what I was so irritated with in the last two books is that we got so many additional POVs that were these flat, one trick characters that didn't have the rich psychological depth. (IMO the exceptions being Brienne and Victarion but I TOTES understand those who dislike these characters. And even Brienne and Victarion, though they were well-written, were not cut from the same stuff as the POVs in the first three books.)

I must be, because to my shock and awe, I find myself actually enjoying physics! I have to do it as pre-requisite for my program at college, but it's actually kinda neat stuff. But I don't want to bore you all.

It's a rough fangirl wave to ride, that is for sure.

Brienne - I would never regret having her POV. :wub: Except maaaybe after the first couple times "Have you seen a maiden of..." were said... I suppose that must be why Jaime interests me. He's multi-dimensional, and I like that in character *cough* Stannis *coughhh*

But newer POV's are really debateable - firstly, where to draw the line that is "new"? ACOK and up?. Some hate them as a whole, some accept them or like them, most people I feel only like certain ones. I liked getting characters like Davos, Jaime, Brienne, Asha, Arianne, Barristan, and Theon as points of view, whereas others I want to ignore - especially the Damphair, he almost makes me go crosseyed. :bawl: I'm a great gal for reading comprehension but I don'th think I retained anything of value from his narratives.

[Candor]

Same here. Escaflowne is still one of my favourite series, but I don't like it in my fantasy books.

I am very picky about what I watch but it's fun stuff. Oddly have I told you that while I still consider him douchey, I can see why DS would be mildly sympathetic and I now have an unexplained urge to read more about him after re-reading the Dorne chappies?

[Ednawolf]

I have a really hard time getting into the Dorne characters. And I'm bored to tears of Essos and, especially, Meereen. The Vale is where it's at; the Quiet Isle is where it's at. :)

[Candor]

I had a hard time with Dorne on my first read, but on the re-read that I'm doing, I'm loving it.

[Caro99]

@solaris, you posted previously this: "I for one would like to know how they are going to tackle the unkiss when she never said it out loud and so much of the Eyrie is inner thought process with Sansa they are going to be flat out trying to convey her growth. Id go mad if I was the script writer!"

Well, i asked the same thing on facebook and they basically said that since sansa never talks about the kiss, then they won't portray it :dunno:

[littlespider]

I'm guessing if they get to the third/fourth seasons (whatever corresponds to SoS) and the unkiss connection is deemed important enough, then they will find some other way of implying that Sansa is thinking about him: taking out that nasty-ass cloak and gazing wistfully, petting dogs and gazing wistfully, or whatnot. Alternatively, they could modify some of her dialogue so that she does mention him occasionally (e.g., coming to his defense when someone names him a coward after Blackwater or some such).

Prose to script medium transition is kind of difficult in this way.

Ednawolf, the Vale is indeed where it's at. I'm also partial to the North and would like to see more of Bolton's army, as the northmen put it so charmingly, get "fucked hard" by winter. But perhaps it is time to revisit Dorne.

My weakness for all things Ironborn (with the notable exception of Asha) is really starting to get out of control, though.

[Caro99]

:cheers: Can I just say that Sandor's tears make him so much hotter to me? Especially the quiet ones in the Blackwater scene with Sansa :blushing:

i know, those and the ones when he fights with beric and his arm is all burned up, & the one when he is confessing to Arya by the Trident just break my heart. & it doesn't diminish his manly attitude one bit!

i always remember clarke gable's reluctance to cry in GWTW cause he thought that his popular "macho" behaviour would be affected if the world saw him crying, but then he did it and in both the book and the movie it just sort of gives an emphasis to rhett that though he is strong and powerful, they can be vulnerable, and in my case some womanly instinct in me just wants to comfort the man (like with sansa in the bedroom scene)!

[clover]

Thought of two things today.

With both Sansa and Arya, Sandor is very aware of their heritage. Can we say we don't know if he respects Starks, but damn it he seems to know his Stark history and can comment on it from time to time?

With the whole wolves nursing Starks comment (lovely) to Sansa from before, and calling Arya "wolf girl...." And I think he said wolf bitch once too?

It is a rainy day in my town and I thought of how he seems to yank both of these girls into, I guess you could say, a new reality or a new phase of their life. Sansa and life in KL and Arya out of her time with the BWB when the chain mailed hand grabs her when she runs away after hearing of Ned and Ashara and that rumor business.

I just read the part when he nabs Arya. And as a side note, I love Arya and Gendry and wonder if this is a WTF moment for him. And it is raining.

[Starbird]

I have a really hard time getting into the Dorne characters. And I'm bored to tears of Essos and, especially, Meereen. The Vale is where it's at; the Quiet Isle is where it's at. :)

It's like you pulled this right out of my head. I think I became so attached to the Starks upon my first reading that I never wanted to leave them. I was having a hard time keeping all of the characters straight and I distinctly remember thinking, "I wish they'd stop mentioning this Hound guy. I don't care about him and he's obviously not important." Words: eaten.

I'll take the Dornish over the Ironborn, though. Dorne at least seems to have some polish. The Ironborn all feel like losers who hang out behind the bowling alley.

[headtrip_honey]

It's like you pulled this right out of my head. I think I became so attached to the Starks upon my first reading that I never wanted to leave them. I was having a hard time keeping all of the characters straight and I distinctly remember thinking, "I wish they'd stop mentioning this Hound guy. I don't care about him and he's obviously not important." Words: eaten.

I'll take the Dornish over the Ironborn, though. Dorne at least seems to have some polish. The Ironborn all feel like losers who hang out behind the bowling alley.

Not much to say, but at first I read the bolded part as:

"Dorne at least seems to have some Polish..."

I was very confused.

Off-topic, but I'm trying to stay away from too much typing atm. I'm dealing with either carpal tunnel or repetitive stress injury in my hand and either way typing right now kinda sucks.

So this was just a big lead up to say, I LOVE YOU ALL BUT I MAY NOT BE AROUND MUCH FOR A WHILE.

My husband keeps glaring at me every time he sees me glued to my computer and wincing at the same time. The spousal shaming just isn't worth it.

[Candor]

Not much to say, but at first I read the bolded part as:

"Dorne at least seems to have some Polish..."

I was very confused.

Off-topic, but I'm trying to stay away from too much typing atm. I'm dealing with either carpal tunnel or repetitive stress injury in my hand and either way typing right now kinda sucks.

So this was just a big lead up to say, I LOVE YOU ALL BUT I MAY NOT BE AROUND MUCH FOR A WHILE.

My husband keeps glaring at me every time he sees me glued to my computer and wincing at the same time. The spousal shaming just isn't worth it.

:grouphug:

How dreadful, I hope you feel better!!

[brashcandy]

Feel better soon, headtrip :grouphug: