Framing Tyrion

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

...and you'd probably end up dead in a ditch, if you think Sansa wasn't provided with sufficient reason to not run away with Sandor. Seriously, just read his discussion with Arya about Sansa. It works in her favor that she realized going with him would be idiotic in the extreme.

...and you'd probably end up dead in a ditch, if you think Sansa wasn't provided with sufficient reason to not run away with Sandor. Seriously, just read his discussion with Arya about Sansa. It works in her favor that she realized going with him would be idiotic in the extreme.

Uh what discussion are you referring to? specificity would be helpful.

[Nev yn]

The one where he talks about how he had meant to rape her, and should have raped and killed her before letting her be wed to Tyrion (and this is after he spent years in the service of the Lannisters, where he would have been familiar with Tyrion. Not as a King's Landing outsider who thought he poisoned wells and murdered babies and such). Normally, the "I should kill you rather than let anyone else touch you" type isn't considered safe.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

The one where he talks about how he had meant to rape her, and should have raped and killed her before letting her be wed to Tyrion (and this is after he spent years in the service of the Lannisters, where he would have been familiar with Tyrion. Not as a King's Landing outsider who thought he poisoned wells and murdered babies and such). Normally, the "I should kill you rather than let anyone else touch you" type isn't considered safe.

See what I was actually suggesting is that you produce the text you are referring to. He had every opportunity to kill and rape her and all he did ask her to sing a song and cry ...that...and...save her from being ripped apart by a blood thirsty mob. Words are wind.

[Nev yn]

See what I was actually suggesting is that you produce the text you are referring to. He had every opportunity to kill and rape her and all he did ask her to sing a song and cry

Don't blame me that your request was vague. You asked which discussion I was referring to, and I told you. I was operating under the assumption that you had actually read the books, this being a forum for discussing them. I suppose I can hold your hand.

I took the bloody song, she never gave it. I meant to take her too. I should have. I should have fucked her bloody and ripped her heart out before leaving her for that dwarf.

And while SanSan shippers will argue that "took her" referred simply to taking her away from King's Landing, even ignoring that the last sentence is something that demonstrates someone who any person would be wise never to walk alone with, let alone go out into the woods alone with.

Words are wind.

The way people use this on this forum sometimes is utterly insane. While words are not actions, you probably don't want to start a relationship with someone who can straight out say they want to kill you. And not in a "I'm angry" way, in a "I should rip your heart out before letting anyone else near you" way. It's the total opposite of what the saying denotes. The saying means that you shouldn't trust people because they say they're trustworthy (or that they will do x/y/z). On the other hand, if they say things that indicate you shouldn't trust them, your first impulse shouldn't be "oh, words are wind, maybe they don't really hate me or want to kill me".

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

The one where he talks about how he had meant to rape her, and should have raped and killed her before letting her be wed to Tyrion (and this is after he spent years in the service of the Lannisters, where he would have been familiar with Tyrion. Not as a King's Landing outsider who thought he poisoned wells and murdered babies and such). Normally, the "I should kill you rather than let anyone else touch you" type isn't considered safe.

“And the little bird, your pretty sister, I stood there in my white cloak and let them beat her. I took the bloody song, she never gave it. I meant to take her too. I should have. I should have fucked her bloody and ripped her heart out before leaving her for that dwarf.”

This is what you're talking about? Are you kidding? He's trying to get Arya to kill him when says that.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Don't blame me that your request was vague. You asked which discussion I was referring to, and I told you. I was operating under the assumption that you had actually read the books, this being a forum for discussing them. I suppose I can hold your hand.

And while SanSan shippers will argue that "took her" referred simply to taking her away from King's Landing, even ignoring that the last sentence is something that demonstrates someone who any person would be wise never to walk alone with, let alone go out into the woods alone with.

The way people use this on this forum sometimes is utterly insane. While words are not actions, you probably don't want to start a relationship with someone who can straight out say they want to kill you. And not in a "I'm angry" way, in a "I should rip your heart out before letting anyone else near you" way. It's the total opposite of what the saying denotes. The saying means that you shouldn't trust people because they say they're trustworthy (or that they will do x/y/z). On the other hand, if they say things that indicate you shouldn't trust them, your first impulse shouldn't be "oh, words are wind, maybe they don't really hate me or want to kill me".

I obviously already knew what the subject of the discussion was. So when you say "you know... that one" its not very helpful. Also you misunderstand what "words are wind" means. It means you're supposed judge people by their actions, that for you to trust them they need to do things to give you reason to trust them. In the case of Sansa the Hound's actions more than out way the weight of those words. Further, Sansa doesn't hear him say that. I'm saying what the character should do based on their experience not what they would do if they're were an omnipresent omniscient being.

Like Tyrion, like Jamie, The Hound says a lot of things he doesn't actually mean. The world treats him like a monster, because he's disfigured and the Mountain's brother, so he acts the part. I think its more likely Arya would kill Sansa than The Hound.

[Nev yn]

Yeah, and it sounds so out of character. It doesn't sound at all like he's confessing his sins and hoping for mercy.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Yeah, and it sounds so out of character. It doesn't sound at all like he's confessing his sins and hoping for mercy.

He's not confessing his sins, he's trying to make Arya angry. He didn't fuck Sansa bloody or rip her heart out. On what planet is that a confession? Are you saying he's making a list of all the things he never did so Arya can take his confession by process of elimination?

[1234567]

I took the bloody song, she never gave it. I meant to take her too. I should have. I should have fucked her bloody and ripped her heart out before leaving her for that dwarf.

Before has several different meanings:

be·fore

adv.

1. Earlier in time: They called me the day before.

2. In front; ahead.

prep.

1. Previous to in time; earlier than.

2. In front of.

3. In store for; awaiting: The young man's whole life lies before him.

4. Into or in the presence of: She asked that the visitor be brought before her.

5. Under the consideration or jurisdiction of: The case is now before the court.

6. In a position superior to: The prince is before his brother in the line of succession.

conj.

1. In advance of the time when: See me before you leave.

2. Rather than; sooner than: I will die before I will betray my country.

The last use of before (where it could be exchanged for "rather than") seems like the most logical explanation of the sentence as he didn't know she was going to be married to Tyrion and although the BBW scene ended badly, it began with him offering to get her out of KL.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Before has several different meanings:

be·fore

adv.

1. Earlier in time: They called me the day before.

2. In front; ahead.

prep.

1. Previous to in time; earlier than.

2. In front of.

3. In store for; awaiting: The young man's whole life lies before him.

4. Into or in the presence of: She asked that the visitor be brought before her.

5. Under the consideration or jurisdiction of: The case is now before the court.

6. In a position superior to: The prince is before his brother in the line of succession.

conj.

1. In advance of the time when: See me before you leave.

2. Rather than; sooner than: I will die before I will betray my country.

The last use of before (where it could be exchanged for "rather than") seems like the most logical explanation of the sentence as he didn't know she was going to be married to Tyrion and although the BBW scene ended badly, it began with him offering to get her out of KL.

Are you talking to me? I assumed that was what he meant. All though it can also be interpreted to mean he would do that rather than leaving Sansa in kings landing. I also assumed that was his intention when he went in there, but he's not actually capable of doing it. Though he looks like a monster, he only pretends to be one.

[Solaris]

:agree: ................................................... :D

[1234567]

Are you talking to me? I assumed that was what he meant. All though it can also be interpreted to mean he would do that rather than leaving Sansa in kings landing. I also assumed that was his intention when he went in there, but he's not actually capable of doing it. Though he looks like a monster, he only pretends to be one.

No, sorry. it was in response to Nev Yn's interpretation about the line. I was suggesting "before" can mean various things, but I thought given what had happened in the books previously to the statement, the only thing that made sense was that his statement was a hyperbolic negative comparison and before was used as a conjunction, for example, I'll chop my ears off before I buy a single by Bruno Mars, I should have ripped his brain out before leaving him to watch reality TV with her.

[Fragile Bird]

No, sorry. it was in response to Nev Yn's interpretation about the line. I was suggesting "before" can mean various things, but I thought given what had happened in the books previously to the statement, the only thing that made sense was that his statement was a hyperbolic negative comparison and before was used as a conjunction, for example, I'll chop my ears off before I buy a single by Bruno Mars, I should have ripped his brain out before leaving him to watch reality TV with her.

Well put! I bought that damn Bruno Mars CD just for the grenade song, should have read this post first!

Edit: and I like the way you framed the "before" definition. Exactly the way I read it.

And I guess I should add I can't see how anyone can think Joffrey was the target. After I read the book, the death of Joffrey puzzled me because it was just wrong - and when I did a careful re-read, the clues leap out at you.

You read these books and the plot and characters are so wonderful you're just sucking them in like a fabulous milkshake (or a great beer, a good martini, whatever your poison is), and afterwards when you sit there sated and contemplating what you read you start thinking to yourself, what's wrong with that picture.

The poison was in the pie. The bird pie was decorative, you don't eat crust covered with bird shit, and it had sauce on it. The strangler poison is colourful, so it must have been mixed with gravy in the pie itself, because it would have shown in the lemon sauce. But the pie was dry, so it could have been a different poison, in the lemon sauce, one similair to the strangler poison.

I think the real issue is who did it. If it was LF, as part of the plot to free Sansa, wouldn't you think she would have been the focus of attention and been unable to slip away? If the Tyrells killed Tyrion so that she could marry Willas, same problem. And if she had a hair net full of poison, how would she defend herself. Or was only one stone, the missing one, the poison pill?

Or was the net all BS, to make Sansa think she was part of the murder, and someone had their own poison which they used in the pie. The stone that fell out was nothing but a loose stone. Sansa is being played by LF.

Since LF went to meet with the Tyrells before the rescue of King's Landing, could this be a joint Tyrell/LF plot, showing the Tyrells plan to do a massive turncloak job on the Baratheons/Lannisters in the near future?

[Nev yn]

The last use of before (where it could be exchanged for "rather than") seems like the most logical explanation of the sentence as he didn't know she was going to be married to Tyrion

Yes, and that doesn't really harm my point (which was that Sandor was bad news for her and she was right to not go with him).

Compare the type of person that might say these:

1) I'd kill myself before buying Levis.

2) I'd rape and murder you before letting you be with someone else.

Does either tell you anything about whether you should go out into the forest alone with said person? Honestly, this isn't exactly rocket science, and I'm baffled as to how it seems so controversial.

[Independent George]

There is one very good reason to leave with Sandor: right until the end, it looked like Stannis was going to win, which would have meant certain death at the hands of Ilyn Payne. Even if Sansa believed Sandor to be the monster he was made out to be (and there is some indication she was beginning to see past his face), one can argue a 90% chance of being raped & murdered is better than a 99.9% chance of being beheaded.

Anyway, to get back on track, I'm not convinced that Tyrion was even intended to be the fall guy. From the Tyrells perspective, who gets blamed for the murder is a secondary consideration; the primary goal is to kill Joffrey so Margaery can marry a more tractable Tommen. Any chaos that ensues afterwards is a bonus; there was an equal chance that either Tyrion or Oberyn would be named the culprit, and the Tyrells benefit either way.

If it's Tyrion, then Sansa's marriage would be annulled upon Tyrion's execution, freeing her to marry Wilas (I'm assuming the Tyrells have enough pull to put the entire blame on Tyrion). If it's Oberyn, then they can avenge the crippling of Willas and sew dissention between Dorne and Casterly Rock.

My problem is that I can't believe they'd collude with Littlefinger (whom they have no reason to trust, and a great many reasons to believe he belongs to the Lannisters). How and why, then, does Dontos get involved? If you're planning to assassinate the King, are you really going to rely on the competence and discretion of a weak, drunken, literal fool?

[Dark Rider]

Yes, Lord Petyr Baelish is obviously connected to the Tyrells as he was the one who brokered the marriage and he comes up with them at the Battle of the Blackwater. He tells Sansa how the QOT poisoned Joffrey. We also know the QOT's husband rode off a cliff and I'm guessing there is more to that story than just he was looking up in the sky at his falcon.

[Nev yn]

There is one very good reason to leave with Sandor: right until the end, it looked like Stannis was going to win, which would have meant certain death at the hands of Ilyn Payne.

...and this was why she was going to leave with Ser Lush.

[Sweet-N-SourRobin]

Yes, Lord Petyr Baelish is obviously connected to the Tyrells as he was the one who brokered the marriage and he comes up with them at the Battle of the Blackwater. He tells Sansa how the QOT poisoned Joffrey. We also know the QOT's husband rode off a cliff and I'm guessing there is more to that story than just he was looking up in the sky at his falcon.

He rode off that cliff intentionally. :)

[Independent George]

...and this was why she was going to leave with Ser Lush.

But if I'm not mistaken, Ser Lush didn't have a plan to get her out before the battle; she had to rely the seemingly very low probability of Stannis' defeat.

He rode off that cliff intentionally. :)

Damn, you beat me to it.

[Ygrain]

Didn't think this one would re-surface :-)

The poison was in the pie. The bird pie was decorative, you don't eat crust covered with bird shit, and it had sauce on it. The strangler poison is colourful, so it must have been mixed with gravy in the pie itself, because it would have shown in the lemon sauce. But the pie was dry, so it could have been a different poison, in the lemon sauce, one similair to the strangler poison.

Only that Tyrion was served a slice of the pie, and I can't think of a way that solely his portion would be poisoned. Also, it would mean the cooks were on it, which would be rather risky.