Framing Tyrion

[Dark Rider]

Didn't think this one would re-surface :-)

Only that Tyrion was served a slice of the pie, and I can't think of a way that solely his portion would be poisoned. Also, it would mean the cooks were on it, which would be rather risky.

Whoever slipped it in definitely did it after it had been served. I've worked service as similar large events and it would be very difficult to poison something and make sure it made it to a specific table with any confidence. At least you couldn't do it back in the kitchen for sure it would have to be done by the person serving it.

[Lord Damian]

Margeary, may have done it as she would have been the closest to Joff. Also, did they not share the same plate or goblet? perhaps she drank first etc..

[Fragile Bird]

Didn't think this one would re-surface :-)

Only that Tyrion was served a slice of the pie, and I can't think of a way that solely his portion would be poisoned. Also, it would mean the cooks were on it, which would be rather risky.

Well, it wasn't the wine. It was the pie that killed Joff - he starts choking once he eats some pie, not after he drinks the wine. He drinks the wine because he started to choke on the pie, and we know from past descriptions the Strangler poison works very fast. He hadn't eaten his pie yet, he came over to stick his hands in Tyrion's pie to piss off his uncle some more.

There is no evidence that anyone at the table did something to Tyrion's pie, which makes it pretty logical to me that it must have been the server. If there are 77 courses to cook and serve, there must have been a lot of information about the courses because that was one heck of a lot of work to do in a medieval kitchen. And who knows, the lemon sauce could have been used on several dishes, so someone either took some sauce and added poison, or made their own and brought it in with them in a small flask.

Surely with all these high-borns at the top of the table the servers serving them would have been chosen in advance and knew who they would be serving. Cersei chose every server and attendant personally remember, Shae could not go to the wedding, could not be snuck in. Everybody has spies everywhere, I don't think it far fetched that someone was bribed to put special sauce on Tyrion's plate.

[Sweet-N-SourRobin]

Margaery has to be in on it so she knows how to avoid it.

The way she keeps trying to lure Joffrey back to his chair, or keep him occupied and distracted with the swords, makes me think she's creating the diversion for Garlan (who's previously gotten the poison from Olenna, via Sansa's hairnet) to slip it into Joff's chalice. But she could have poisoned his piece of pie herself when Garlan tries to drag out that confrontation between Joff and Tyrion with the "that was ill done, your grace" bit. If Margaery has the poison she can simply have the green light on to slip it to Joff's food when the opportunity presents itself. Otherwise she'd need a signal agreed upon beforehand, something they'd know about (i.e. the pigeons, not the jousters), assuming there is no antidote for the strangler that she could take beforehand (since there doesn't seem to be time after the fact; it's very quick-acting).

Its really tough to know how it got from Sansa's hair to Joffrey's mouth, since our only eyes for this scene are Tyrion, who is oblivious to there being anything to watch, and is rip-roaring drunk besides. Not only are the Tyrells playing the shell game, the mark has his back turned on the table (or blindfolded, pick your analogy). No way we the reader can see where the pea is at any given time besides those start and end points. They were clever to wait over halfway through the feast, when everyone would be distracted, complacent, and drunk.

Ace acting job by Margaery by the way, bawling her eyes out with big ol' crocodile tears while Joff chokes to death. We can see through it, but clearly none of the characters did.

Since people have mentioned it, I don't think Tyrion was the target of any poison. The Tyrells would want him alive as the fall guy for Joff, and I get the impression from how Cersei behaves she could/would just kill him via a more conventional power play/assassination. Remember she thinks/wants to prove she's Tywin's real heir, the cunning one, the lion, she's more man than Jaime, she wouldn't resort to "the woman's weapon" when she didn't have to. She'd want Tyrion to know she did him in. This is not the same as saying nobody wanted him dead, too. LF and the Tyrells would both like him to die and put Sansa back on the market for their respective designs on her. Setting him up to be the fall guy for the royal assassination accomplishes this AND keeps suspicion off of them (very important!).

Can't rely on servants to pre-poison food beforehand, because there's usually a royal food taster just for these sorts of things. Although there doesn't seem to be one here, which is odd. Oversight by GRRM, or deliberate Lanniser complacency?

[Fragile Bird]

OK, lets look at the book.

Joffrey wants to use his sword, Widow's Wail, to cut the ceremonial pie. Margaery tells him not to use it, so they call over Ser Ilyn Payne. Tyrion and Sansa watch him, and Sansa is shocked when Ilyn pulls out his sword, because it is not Ice but some other sword. Sansa clutches Tyrion's arm in shock, and both watch the pie cutting.

There is no opportunity for Sansa to do any poisoning - one arm is holding Tyrion, and she is focused on the sword.

Joffrey and Margaery hold Ilyn's sword together and cut the pie. The doves fly out, and Joffrey twirls Margaery around in celebration.

There is no opportunity for Margaery to do any poisoning.

A serving man places hot pie in front of Tyrion and spoons sauce over it. Tyrion tries to leave with Sansa so that he can go change his doublet.

There is no opportunity for either Tyrion or Sansa or anyone else to put anything in the pie.

Joffrey comes crashing over and refuses to let them leave. He demands his cup of wine from his cupbearer, and Tyrion has to climb a chair and reach over the table to get the cup of wine.

The wine cup was far from the edge of the table and not in any place where someone could casually drop poison into it. He drank from it before and there was no poison in it. No more wine is poured in.

Joffrey drinks deeply, Margaery says lets go back to our seats, and Joffrey says, my uncle hasn't eaten his pie. He sticks his hand in the pie and eats a handful of pie. He coughs, and scoops up and eats more pie. He says it's dry and drinks some wine, and coughs some more. And then he coughs and coughs and coughs and coughs and dies.

My point is there is no point at which anyone could have put poison in the pie or the wine in the scene. The poison must have been in the pie when placed before Tyrion. Or in the sauce poured over it. It's called a lemon sauce, but it could have been some sort of gravy with lemon in it, and the poison didn't discolour it.

[Ygrain]

So, you think the whole Cressen prologue, which introduced the strangler, the way it looks and the way it is standardly used, i.e. dilluted in red wine, was there just as a red herring? And the same for Sansa's hairnet and what LF tells her about the Tyrells? This seems far-fetched to me.

Also, two things to your account: the strangler works very fast but not instantly. Joff drinks first, then takes a mouhtful of the pie, and says it's good but somewhat dry - however, I don't think there's anything wrong with the pie, it's already the first effect of the poison when the muscles of his throat start tightening and it feels as if food was sticking in his throat.

The other thing is that while the cup is too far for Tyrion to reach, it doesn't mean that it's problematic to reach for a person with normal arm length. When Joffrey drank from it the first time, he simply put it on the table - he is already much taller than Tyrion and reaches farther without a substantial problem. - I do agree that the poisoner probably wasn't Margaery, but Leonette and Garlan were sitting just next to Tyrion, and especially if they stood up to watch the pie being cut, the opportunity was there.

[LadyoftheNorth72]

I have had a theory on this for a long time, seems like a good time to break it out again.

I believe the Tyrells and LF did have a plot to murder Joff at the wedding via poison ...and it was bungled when Joff elected to dump the poisoned wine over Tyrion's head rather than drink it. They had no plan B ...but someone else did.

In terms of the timing of events, after Joff dumps the wine on Tyrion, he orders Tyrion to refill the chalice, which Tyrion does using a flagon taken from a passing serving girl. The wine is clearly not poisoned at this time and the Tyrells are probably thoroughly pissed that their plan was spoiled, but therr is little they can do about it, since fiddling with Sansa's hairnet again would look odd.

Garlan cannot get at the newly filled chalice because half the hall is now watching the entertaining spectacle. Tyrion obviously cannot get at it either, he would have to stand on a chair to do so. Marg is by Joff's side from then on, and has no opportunity.

Then, as Joff is returning to continue his humiliation of Tyrion, a servingman puts down Tyrion's pie and pours lemon sauce over it. This person is actually in a perfect position to use sleight of hand to drop something into the chalice, as the guests are now distracted by their own pie being served. And I believe this servingman is Varys.

It would have been simple for Varys to discover the Tyrell plot to murder Joff, using his Little Birds. Not entirely trusting them to pull it off, he puts himself into position where *no matter where the chalice is,* he has a good shot at reaching it, disguised as a servingman. We already know that he can disguise himself so that people will walk right past him and never recognize him. And most indicative, Varys' presence is never noted once during the entire wedding or the feast following. As a member of the counccil, he should have had a place of relative honor, yet he is conspicuously absent. It would have been the easiest thing in the world for him to serve Tyrion's pie (and probably also Garland's) and in the process, drop something out of his hand or sleeve into the chalice.

The "why" is obvious ...he, of all people, does not want a peaceful accord between Lannister and Tyrell. I doubt he cared much who got the blame for it ...he was probably hoping for the Tyrells, but anyone would do.

[Ygrain]

I have had a theory on this for a long time, seems like a good time to break it out again.

I believe the Tyrells and LF did have a plot to murder Joff at the wedding via poison ...and it was bungled when Joff elected to dump the poisoned wine over Tyrion's head rather than drink it. They had no plan B ...but someone else did.

In terms of the timing of events, after Joff dumps the wine on Tyrion, he orders Tyrion to refill the chalice, which Tyrion does using a flagon taken from a passing serving girl. The wine is clearly not poisoned at this time and the Tyrells are probably thoroughly pissed that their plan was spoiled, but therr is little they can do about it, since fiddling with Sansa's hairnet again would look odd.

Garlan cannot get at the newly filled chalice because half the hall is now watching the entertaining spectacle. Tyrion obviously cannot get at it either, he would have to stand on a chair to do so. Marg is by Joff's side from then on, and has no opportunity.

Then, as Joff is returning to continue his humiliation of Tyrion, a servingman puts down Tyrion's pie and pours lemon sauce over it. This person is actually in a perfect position to use sleight of hand to drop something into the chalice, as the guests are now distracted by their own pie being served. And I believe this servingman is Varys.

It would have been simple for Varys to discover the Tyrell plot to murder Joff, using his Little Birds. Not entirely trusting them to pull it off, he puts himself into position where *no matter where the chalice is,* he has a good shot at reaching it, disguised as a servingman. We already know that he can disguise himself so that people will walk right past him and never recognize him. And most indicative, Varys' presence is never noted once during the entire wedding or the feast following. As a member of the counccil, he should have had a place of relative honor, yet he is conspicuously absent. It would have been the easiest thing in the world for him to serve Tyrion's pie (and probably also Garland's) and in the process, drop something out of his hand or sleeve into the chalice.

The "why" is obvious ...he, of all people, does not want a peaceful accord between Lannister and Tyrell. I doubt he cared much who got the blame for it ...he was probably hoping for the Tyrells, but anyone would do.

An interesting idea, employing Varys!

However: the fact that Varys is not mentioned does not necessarily mean he is not in the hall, there are tons of people present. I can’t remember, is Pycelle mentioned?

Also, by this time, LF knows that walls have ears, and so does Olenna, since both take care that nothing can be overheard (Sansa is prompted to meet Dontos outside and Olenna uses Butterbumps to make eavesdropping impossible). I think that Varys didn’t know, or didn’t know details – and if he did, the plot served his purposes and he let it be.

Next: Joff and Margaery were both drinking from the chalice. While the chalice was with them, no-one had a chance to drop there anything, except Margaery herself. This makes for a very inconvenient situation: if Joff drops dead there, at the head of the table, there is absolutely no clue how someone could have poisoned it. Oberyn is seated at a totally different table, Tyrion is about dozen seats away…. Virtually, no-one had access to Joff’s wine, ecept a couple of servants, who would be put to torture but most probably reveal nothing of importance because they know nothing. The suspicion might eventually turn even to the Tyrells themselves, especially when they start pressing for the marriage with Tommen. I think that pinning the murder on a scapegoat that would be accepted without any doubt was a crucial part of their plan. As I mentioned above, I believe Joffrey was somehow prompted into humiliating Tyrion (not really difficult to do, given his personality), so that everyone saw Tyrion manipulate his wine.

There were basically two opportunities when to drop something in the wine: during the pie cutting, when everyone was watching Joff, Margaery and the doves, or during serving the pie. The former is a good opportunity for Garland/Leonette (why does everyone tend to leave the woman out of it? She was sitting just next to Tyrion), the latter for a servant (more dangerous forG/L, since people are watching food being put down on the table and someone might notice)

I think the Tyrells knew the details of the feast, who was going to be seated where and that there would be the jousting dwarves, which would provide a source of conflict between Joff and Tyrion. Then they staged an opportunity, and Olenna either passed the poison to L/G when she turned up there, or even beforehands.

[SeanF]

The Strangler was certainly dissolved in wine, not the pie.

I don't know if there is an antidote to The Strangler. If there is, I'm sure Margaery would have taken it, given that she could have drunk from the same cup as Joffrey.

I do hope that at some point in the series, we'll find out exactly which Tyrell played which role in Joffrey's poisoning. I give them full marks for poisoning Joffrey, but setting up Tyrion, and especially Sansa, to take the blame for it, was a despicable act.

[The Blood Eyed Crow]

What I don't understand is why the stone from Sansa's hairnet was never found in the pie or the bottom of the wine glass or Joffrey's throat. If it was used to kill Joffrey then why wasn't it ever discovered. If he didn't choke on it then why was it used to kill Joffrey because I believe when they opened Joffrey's throat they found nothing, so choking wasn't an option. If it was covered in poison and dropped in the pie then why wasn't it found in the pie. I imagine they would have examined the pie. Also, I may need to recheck the book, but I thought it was the Tears of Lys that was the chosen poison, but if that's the case then why wasn't his death more drawn out like Jon Arryn's instead of instantaneously? If anyone has an answer I'd appreciate it, because up until now it has bugged me as a plot hole or something I've missed..

[Ygrain]

The Strangler was certainly dissolved in wine, not the pie.

I don't know if there is an antidote to The Strangler. If there is, I'm sure Margaery would have taken it, given that she could have drunk from the same cup as Joffrey.

I do hope that at some point in the series, we'll find out exactly which Tyrell played which role in Joffrey's poisoning. I give them full marks for poisoning Joffrey, but setting up Tyrion, and especially Sansa, to take the blame for it, was a despicable act.

It would be enough if she knew when not to drink anymore, meaning she had to be complicit.

I am also very curious who did it, and if Garlan knew - I had such a favourable opinon of him before that, I don't want him to be such a bastard.

What I don't understand is why the stone from Sansa's hairnet was never found in the pie or the bottom of the wine glass or Joffrey's throat. If it was used to kill Joffrey then why wasn't it ever discovered. If he didn't choke on it then why was it used to kill Joffrey because I believe when they opened Joffrey's throat they found nothing, so choking wasn't an option. If it was covered in poison and dropped in the pie then why wasn't it found in the pie. I imagine they would have examined the pie. Also, I may need to recheck the book, but I thought it was the Tears of Lys that was the chosen poison, but if that's the case then why wasn't his death more drawn out like Jon Arryn's instead of instantaneously? If anyone has an answer I'd appreciate it, because up until now it has bugged me as a plot hole or something I've missed..

The "stone" from Sansa's hairnet was a crystal of the strangler poison, which got dilluted in the wine, that's why it was never found. Pycelle confirms at Tyrion's trial that the effect of the poison matches that of strangler.

[SeanF]

I would guess that the plotters were Olenna, Margaery, and Garlan (as well as Littlefinger). I don't know if Mace and Loras were in on the secret too, The Tyrells seem to be a very close family, but Olenna has a very low opinion of Mace's abilities.

Margaery is clearly an outstanding liar, to be able to go through the wedding ceremony with someone she knew was shortly to be murdered, without a trace of nerves, and then to weep so convincingly after Joffrey died.

[dtones520]

I think it was Varys' plot. You notice that they found a Highgarden gold piece in the missing gaolers quarters when they were searching for Tyrion, and WE know that the gaoler is in fact Lord Varys.

Why would Varys want to kill Joffrey? We know Varys' goal now, get Aegon on the Throne and let the current person ruling the realm screw up as much as possible, so when Aegon gets to Westeros people will gladly raise their banners for the King whos Throne was stolen. Joffrey was an idiot, no one liked him, everyone knewbhe was juts andwas a terrible king, plus he had Cersei ruling as his reagent, which Varys liked.

Joffrey dying, Tyrion being accused, freeing Sansa, etc; all play into Littlefinger's game, not Varys'. Especially now that we know Varys and Illyrios plan.

[Ygrain]

What does play into Varys' game is strife between Tyrells and Lannisters - actually, I believe he planted that coin there himself, because Cersei's reaction to it was so predictable.