septa lemore is ashara dayne.

[Dragonfish]

she is described as being ~10 years older than Ashara Dayne would have been.

Thread = fail

The bolded is the key word here.

We do not know how old she is, only how old Tyrion thinks she is, and Tyrion has misjudged ages before. Likewise, we do not know how old Ashara was. She could have been a few years older than Ned, which would put her age in the late-thirties to early-forties range. So there's nothing here that would rule Ashara out as a candidate.

[Franz95]

I'd thought she might be Tyene's mother, but Oberyn and Lemore are both dark-haired whereas Ty has golden hair. As for the Ashara theory... I trust good Tyrion. Within three sentences he knew "Griff" was lying, but he never suspected anything of Lemore, did he?

[EgoistMusketeer]

The bolded is the key word here.

We do not know how old she is, only how old Tyrion thinks she is, and Tyrion has misjudged ages before. Likewise, we do not know how old Ashara was. She could have been a few years older than Ned, which would put her age in the late-thirties to early-forties range. So there's nothing here that would rule Ashara out as a candidate.

This is Westeros, making Ashara a few years older than Ned would already put her at around the age of 23 - 25? For a noble maiden of the south to be neither betrothed or wed at that age and to be dancing with Ned seems to me an illogical assumption.

Eyes, hair, etc, everything we see through Tyrion's eyes points to her not being Ashara Dayne.

As for evidence pointing to yes? ...They didn't find Ashara Dayne's body.

Its as strong an argument as Benjen Stark is septa Lemore.

[BranBrokeLegs]

I'd thought she might be Tyene's mother, but Oberyn and Lemore are both dark-haired whereas Ty has golden hair. As for the Ashara theory... I trust good Tyrion. Within three sentences he knew "Griff" was lying, but he never suspected anything of Lemore, did he?

She's not Tyene's mother. I forget where its mentioned, but I think Arianne makes mention of going with Tyene to visit her mother. I think she's close by. Oldtown maybe. Definitely not living on a boat on the Rhoyne for x years.

[fonso7]

She is Lyanna Stark.........................

[Foreign Steel]

She is Lyanna Stark.........................

whoaa

[Dragonfish]

This is Westeros, making Ashara a few years older than Ned would already put her at around the age of 23 - 25? For a noble maiden of the south to be neither betrothed or wed at that age and to be dancing with Ned seems to me an illogical assumption.

Ashara is Dornish, and as such she actually has a say in who she will marry, and when. It is therefore not unusual that she would be unbetrothed at such an age. Arianne Martell was similarly unbetrothed until the age of 23 (at least officially), for similar reasons.

As for her dancing with Ned, well, she only did that at the request of Brandon. Everyone else she danced with was in a completely different peer group from Ned. So if we're judging her age based on who she dances with, it is actually more logical to assume she was a bit older than Ned.

So, explain to me again what is so illogical about all of this?

Eyes, hair, etc, everything we see through Tyrion's eyes points to her not being Ashara Dayne.

Eh, no, you've got this completely wrong. Lemore's hair color matches Ashara's. We don't know what her eye color is, so we can't make any conclusions based on that.

.

As for evidence pointing to yes? ...They didn't find Ashara Dayne's body.

Its as strong an argument as Benjen Stark is septa Lemore.

Oh, I'll admit it's not the strongest argument, and I myself am not even sure it's true. But neither is there anything that ultimately disproves it, and nothing you've said so far changes that.

[Michael Snow]

Can I just say that this is the first of the earth shattering forum theories that I've stumbled upon since registering for my account, meaning this is my first chance to thank you all? This theory is great, I love it, I love it so much, and it makes me so happy. Thanks guys. Really cool :D

[Jem]

Oh boy, here we go again!

I'd bet my house on Lemore = Ashara. It isn't even a question in my mind, I've been 100% into this theory since I first met Lemore.

Anyway, just to add some fuel to the fire, I just thought I'd mention a thread I started a few weeks about about Mellario of Norvos (Doran Martell's estranged wife). On that thread someone (sorry can't remember who!) proposed Mellario as Lemore.

Not that I think it is true - 100% Ashara supporter - but I just thought I'd float it out there in case anyone wanted to make something of it.

[MyLifeIsNotSoPrecious]

Why would Ashara fake her death if she was going off with Aegon? If her purpose is to vouch for Aegon's legitimacy when they get back to Westeros, wouldn't she have a stronger case if she has disappeared without a trace or something? Otherwise people would think both her and Aegon are fakes.

[Dragonfish]

Why would Ashara fake her death if she was going off with Aegon? If her purpose is to vouch for Aegon's legitimacy when they get back to Westeros, wouldn't she have a stronger case if she has disappeared without a trace or something? Otherwise people would think both her and Aegon are fakes.

Connington faked his death to go off with Aegon, so I don't think this criticism has any traction.

[corbon]

This is Westeros, making Ashara a few years older than Ned would already put her at around the age of 23 - 25? For a noble maiden of the south to be neither betrothed or wed at that age and to be dancing with Ned seems to me an illogical assumption.

20-22 would fit perfectly. Old enough to have thoroughly completed her 'education' as a young noblewoman and be sent to court to act as Ladies Maid to a sickly Princess in her early 20s with a child already. Not a job description that you want a particularly young teenager for.

Noblewomen are not always married ridiculously young (especially it seems in Dorne) and this was during a time of long peace, not the current 'interesting times' where alliances (and heirs) are much more urgent.

And Tyrion has been shown to be bad with age guessing before. Thats all it is BTW, a guess, based on literally nothing more than looks IIRC (didn't Tyrion make this guess before he'd even spoken to her?)

So our best guess for Ashara's current age would be late 30s, 38ish. Tyrions unreliable guess is 'past 40'. This is a man guessing a middle aged woman's age. You know, that thing that is famously a byword for being impossible to get right. There is plenty of room for overlap even, let alone being only 2-3 years out.

Simply put, he's roughly 'in the range' for Ashara.

Eyes, hair, etc, everything we see through Tyrion's eyes points to her not being Ashara Dayne.

Simply wrong again.

Eyes don't point anywhere because we haven't been told about them. The fact that they have been mysteriously missed can point either way - missed because they are unremarkable (which would be remarkable in itself) or missed because noting them would give GRRMs game away too easily.

The hair is a match.

As for evidence pointing to yes? ...They didn't find Ashara Dayne's body.

Its as strong an argument as Benjen Stark is septa Lemore.

Supposed suicide is a leap into the sea -> Lemore is a strong swimmer (something unusual).

Lemore is known to be a westerosi 'Lady' according to Jon Connington's thoughts.

Lemore is hiding her identity, according to her own words.

Same hair.

Stretchmarks where there shouldn't be (for both).

Ashara has previous connection to Jon Connington (she danced with him at Harrenhal and they were both at court together).

Age is roughly right.

Ashara has the best connection to Rhaegar (through Arthur) and Elia, and thus the single most likely person to be found looking after Aegon, all other things being equal.

Both were/are, as best we can tell, attractive, both in terms of pure looks and in terms of getting on with people - X-factor if you like.

So we have a westerosi noblewoman with dark hair, stretchmarks, close connection to Rhaegar and Elia, a Targaryen loyalist known to Jon Connington who supposedly commits suicide in the sea in somewhat odd circumstances and whose body is never found.

20 years later we have an attractive secret noblewoman of approximately the right age with dark hair, stretch marks, a regular swim routine, working with Jon Connington and hiding Rhaegar and Elia's son.

Somehow I don't think its Benjen.

She is Lyanna Stark.........................

Who died in Ned's arms.

[three-eyed monkey]

But would Ashara, as part of Rhaegar and Elia's inner circle, have been able to tell an Aegon from a fAegon? Or was she dismissed from KL before Aegon was born orelse when he was so young that the boy she was presented with in Essos was close enough in looks to fool her into thinking he was the infant she remembered? C'mon Dragonfish, I rely on people like you for clarity on such details.

[Booknerd2]

Well, the first thing:

Is it me, or is hair dye exhausted now? Aegon, Alayne...I'm just tired with it.

Lemore has dark brown, so if it is Ashara it changed from black, or Tyene from blonde.

And, of course, GRRM gave no eye color, most likely for a reason.

[Swordsaint]

I only got two things from reading about Septa Lemore.

1. She's pretending to be Septa Lemore

2. She's a MiLF!!!

[Dragonfish]

But would Ashara, as part of Rhaegar and Elia's inner circle, have been able to tell an Aegon from a fAegon? Or was she dismissed from KL before Aegon was born orelse when he was so young that the boy she was presented with in Essos was close enough in looks to fool her into thinking he was the infant she remembered? C'mon Dragonfish, I rely on people like you for clarity on such details.

Ashara may very well have left King's Landing before Aegon was born, so it's entirely possible she wouldn't be able to tell a real Aegon from a fake one. Though a lot of this depends on when precisely Aegon was born, which is not entirely clear. George did say in a previous SSM that he was around a year old at the time of the Sack, which would put his birth at just before the beginning of the war. I could easily see Ashara leaving before then, especially since she would've just recently had to deal with her own "dishonor" and the child resulting therefrom. However, the appendix in ADWD puts Aegon's age at 18, which would make him about a year or so older than George had previously indicated, I think. It's not clear to me if this discrepancy is due to George changing his mind about Aegon's age, or if this is a deliberate hint that Young Griff is too old to be who he says he is. If it's the former, then it's more likely that Ashara was around to see Aegon when he was younger.

That said, Ashara may not have seen Aegon again until he was older, just like Connington. I don't think we know for sure when Lemore was brought into the plan, though it's likely that it was around the same time Connington was brought in (the child wouldn't have needed an education in the Faith when he was a baby, after all). This would raise some questions though, such as why Ashara would've faked her death before knowing about Aegon. These sorts of details aren't insurmountable for the theory, though.

[Dragonfish]

Lemore has dark brown, so if it is Ashara it changed from black, or Tyene from blonde.

Ashara is not described as having black hair, only dark hair. So I don't think any hair dye is needed.

[corbon]

Lemore has dark brown, so if it is Ashara it changed from black, or Tyene from blonde.

Ashara's was 'dark' not black. So it fits.

Tyene's mother is in Westeros, not Essos. Tyene visited her. She is not Lemore.

And, of course, GRRM gave no eye color, most likely for a reason.

Yes, but what reason? Because it was a clue too far/easy on something he is obviously hinting at? Or just because he forgot?

[MyLifeIsNotSoPrecious]

Connington faked his death to go off with Aegon, so I don't think this criticism has any traction.

Yeah, I don't know. It wasn't really a criticism as much as just a random thought I had. In Connington's case, it was a simple matter of making up a story that he drank himself to death. Not to mention, faking his death was necessary, given that he was a high profile exile being watched. Jumping off a tower into the sea just seems like an excessive, dangerous thing to do when the plan isn't really contingent on people believing Ashara to be dead.(I suppose that story could be fabricated too though, right?)

[Naathi Prince]

I always assumed she was Tyene Sand's mother. The Dornish connection and stretch marks and the fact that she is a septa.