septa lemore is ashara dayne.

[lacunajilly]

........

First of all the eye color of the septa really isn't a valid point of contention, the entire group long ago realized that a key part of keeping their secret was by hiding Targaryen features. If the Septa is Ashara then she has certainly masked her purple eyes somehow in order to protect not only herself but Aegon. They could not afford any member of the group reminding anyone of a Targaryen.

Still I am not certain about this theory, I certainly like the idea of having a character that was a witness to so many key events during Roberts Rebellion, but there is something about Griff / Aegon and knowing this was all set up by the Spider that makes me really want Aegon to be a fraud. If the Septa is Ashara it will go a long way to legitimizing Aegon, sure the Spider might have pulled a fast one on her but do you really think that Ashara wouldn't have spoken to Elia and Rhegnar about this plan? If the plan was in place when Ned came to return Dawn then it was preplanned in the event the war went badly and Ashara certainly would have spoken to the child's parents before taking Aegon into her care.

Also crackpot: Maybe the still born girl child was the child Ned conceived with Wylla... Ashara pretended the still born child was hers in order to hide.... DUN DUN DUN Daenerys Targaryen..... after all she has her mother's eyes. Ashara is really just hanging around with Aegon until she finds her little girl again.

This is why George tortures us all so, just a little detail here and another there and your imagination can just run all over the place.

[Ygrain]

........

First of all the eye color of the septa really isn't a valid point of contention, the entire group long ago realized that a key part of keeping their secret was by hiding Targaryen features. If the Septa is Ashara then she has certainly masked her purple eyes somehow in order to protect not only herself but Aegon. They could not afford any member of the group reminding anyone of a Targaryen.

Could you possibly elaborate how Lemore changed her eye colour when the whole point of Aegon dying his hair is to make his purple eyes seem bluer?

Also crackpot: Maybe the still born girl child was the child Ned conceived with Wylla... Ashara pretended the still born child was hers in order to hide.... DUN DUN DUN Daenerys Targaryen..... after all she has her mother's eyes. Ashara is really just hanging around with Aegon until she finds her little girl again.

This is why George tortures us all so, just a little detail here and another there and your imagination can just run all over the place.

According to GRRM, Dany was born 9 months after the Sack of KL. That sort of busts your crackpot.

[lacunajilly]

Could you possibly elaborate how Lemore changed her eye colour when the whole point of Aegon dying his hair is to make his purple eyes seem bluer?

She could use makeup especially light eyeliner to change the eye color. Also since we know dying the hair masks the eye color she could also choose the Septa head covering to be specific colors that also help to mask her eye color. These are the realistic possibilities to me, though another person did mention the use of magic I think that it would be unnecessary. If Aegon can hide his eyes with hair dye it should not be hard for a Septa to do the same.

According to GRRM, Dany was born 9 months after the Sack of KL. That sort of busts your crackpot.

Yes I know, which is why I labeled it crackpot. It's completely impossible and outlandish. Of course Dany has to be Targaryen, she birthed the dragons.

[NitzanLeo]

Nope nope. I can't believe she's Ashara. I don't find a way for them to hide her purple eyes. Ashara was often described as eerily beautiful. Lemore is only 'pretty for her age,' IIRC. I do believe she's someone we know. She's Tyene's mother, if anything.

[rivergirl]

She could use makeup especially light eyeliner to change the eye color. Also since we know dying the hair masks the eye color she could also choose the Septa head covering to be specific colors that also help to mask her eye color. These are the realistic possibilities to me, though another person did mention the use of magic I think that it would be unnecessary. If Aegon can hide his eyes with hair dye it should not be hard for a Septa to do the same.

I don't think they have makeup in the ASOIAF universe. Remember that the series was written by a male, who i somehow doubt took eyeliner into consideration. Besides which, Aegon is the one who needs to remain hidden. Lemore, on the other hand, is just a Septa travelling around in Essos. Valyrian features aren't all that uncommon there, especially in Lys where silver-blonde hair and blue eyes are common. The way I interpreted it, Aegon had to dye his hair because firstly he looks like Rhaegar, and secondly they were taking every possible precaution to avoid anyone even associating him with the Targaryens until it was the right time.

Also, Aegon didn't hide his eyes successfully- Tyrion noticed.

[Bushido]

Nothing annoyed me more (except maybe for Victarion Greyjoy) than this lady,who frankly,had better be somebody :D

She is not as irksome as character save the speculation that swirls around her.

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

Just to say that just because somethings in the App doesn't make it so. It was compiled by fans and was looked over by GRRM. It also took the situation as is not what might be revealed. I mean say that Ashara is actually Jon's Mum GRRM is hardly going to reveal a massive plot twist like this in an app several years before the final books are in place.

And you really think he would include an intentionally false information when there are clever ways how to go about it? - But what do I know, I haven't read it - perhaps it does say "according to Barristan, she gave birth to a stillborn daughter" and "she is believed to have committed suicide, though her body was never found".

I was also under the impression that the App allowed you to set your reading progress so as not to spoil things in books you hadn't read. So you could tell it that you had only read through COK and it would not spoil Robb/Joff etc.... I haven't seen the App myself, but recall reading something to that effect on here.

Surely if that's the case the bit about Ashara would be right up until now? Then if/when something else gets released in WoW the app would update to go with those reveals? So any theory involving her could be correct.

That is what I recall reading. But we would need confirmation from someone who has actually used it....

Thank you all for this! I've had to put a whole bunch of people on ignore because of that damn app! Now back to the rest of the thread.

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

Whilst reading through this, i was so happy to find that other people think that "Lemore = Ashara = Dany's Third Betrayal!" I'm basically sold on the Lemore = Ashara theory purely because it would allow Barristan to betray Daenerys. I've got something to add, though. Bear with me, it might be completely ridiculous.

I think it's fair to say that none of us are quite sure how GRRM Genetics work. For example, in his world:

Rhaegar = silvery blonde with violet eyes

Elia = dark haired with brown eyes

Rhaegar + Elia = Rhaenys and Aegon.

Aegon: takes after his father except for his eyes, which JonCon noticed are not the same. No mentioned features of Elia.

Rhaenys: takes after her mother, with no mentioned features of Rhaegar.

The real issue there is that Aegon looked nothing like Elia. As i've said, i don't know how GRRM Genetics work, but in our world, that's not possible. Incest or not, dark hair is the most dominant, and silvery hair is the least. Brown eyes are the most dominant, and violet ones are extremely rare. So it doesn't make much sense that Aegon would get all of Rhaegar's features and absolutely none of Elia's, especially since Elia has absolutely no recessive Valyrian genes. The only reason (in our world at least) that Aegon could have either silvery hair or violet eyes is if his mother had a recessive gene for either of them. Which, being Rhoynish with a little bit of Andal blood, Elia did not. So basically, Young Griff/Aegon's appearance suggests that Elia can't be his mother. However, considering his hair, eyes, and general resemblance to Rhaegar, it's almost certain that he (or at least someone else of Valyrian blood) is his father.

For the sake of pure speculation, let's say that Rhaegar really is Aegon's father. In this argument it's not really relevant whether or not Aegon is the original Aegon, who supposedly died but then didn't and is thus hanging out with JonCon today. As i said earlier, it doesn't make sense for the real Aegon not to have any features of Elia. But that could be explained for a lot of reasons... for example, Elia agreeing to let Rhaegar get another woman pregnant while she pretended to be. This is possible because:

1. Elia had always been frail and sickly

2. She had been bedridden for half a year after giving birth to Rhaenys, and

3. Because Rhaenys was the eldest, Rhaegar and Elia still needed a male heir.

Now, say that Elia accepted that they did need a male heir, and she couldn't provide one. Who would be the natural choice to conceive her child? A close friend of hers, or a lady-in-waiting. Ideally, it would also be someone sworn to House Martell, to ensure the loyalty and secrecy of the mother. Who does this point to? Ashara Dayne.

What we know about Ashara Dayne:

- She had violet eyes, a different shade to Rhaegar's. It seems odd to me that Aegon would have different eyes to his father, yet still violet, if they didn't come from somewhere else. Besides which, modern-day genetics tells us that violet + brown will make brown. Violet + violet, however, will definitely make violet.

- She was a lady in waiting to Elia, but left her during the year before the Sack of King's Landing. When the Sack happened, Aegon was a few months old. This would be the ideal time frame for Rhaegar to get Ashara knocked up and have her go off to Starfall to give birth to the baby, while Elia either didn't really have one, or gave birth to one that looked like her. So the real Aegon, not the Aegon that we see.

- Shortly after the Sack, Ashara "jumped off the Palestone Sword" and disappeared, after giving birth to a "stillborn child." If we're going with the theory that Ashara didn't die and went on to become Septa Lemore, this would also explain why Lemore has stretch marks. But what if Ashara's baby didn't die, but was taken from her? I for one would be pretty upset about that. Having your baby taken off you, your brother dead, and one of your best friends and the father of your child all dead too, might make a woman jump of a cliff... or just run away.

I know this is long, sorry! Anyway, Ashara Dayne being Rhaegar's mother would also explain his appearance. He has violet eyes, but not like Rhaegar's. He's also tall, like Ashara, and, most of all, does not have any Rhoynish characteristics. While the Martells are of Rhoynish descent, the Daynes are Stony Dornishmen. From the wiki: "Unlike the rest of the more rhoynar-looking Dornishmen they have pale skin with hair ranging from dark brown to pale blond and that they often have violet eyes." Therefore, Aegon being half-Dayne would explain his appearance. Since his violet eyes are a different colour to Rhaegar's, they could be the same as Ashara's.

If Septa Lemore is Ashara Dayne and Ashara Dayne is Aegon's mother, it would explain:

1. How Septa Lemore got involved in the whole Aegon situation.

2. Why she is willing to risk her life to put Aegon on the throne.

3. How JonCon found her and knew he could trust her. As Rhaegar's best friend, JonCon is more likely than anyone (apart from Elia and Ashara) to know about the deception if, (and i'll say again that this is all pure speculation,) for speculation's sake there was one.

4. Considering the fact that she fathered a child to a close friend's husband (quite possibly with permission, but still) Ashara became a Septa, and

5. Why that Septa has stretch marks.

Phew. Sorry for the theory-explosion. But if all that is true, it would almost definitely add up to Selmy betraying Daenerys to support the woman he loves and her child by the Prince he swore to protect. Like JonCon, he might have a few "i-failed-Rhaegar" issues.

This is a non-issue really. The easiest example being that the son of Daeron II (who married Myriah Martell); Baelor Breakspear had a similar appearance of his mother. That being dark hair. While at the very least, his brother (also the son of Myriah) Maekar I, had exceptionally pale hair to the point it was white, even in his young age, and purple eyes. Maekar I being the Great Great Great Grandfather of Aegon VI.

There is also quite easily a chance for this to exist in real life. All that Elia has to have, is the allele for the silver hair gene (possible given the marriage between the Dornish and Targaryens back when Daeron II was king, and Maron Martell was the ruler of Dorne. Daeron married Maron's sister Myriah, and Maron married Daeron's sister Daenerys.

On the assumption that Elia also carries the silver hair allele, it is about a 50% chance that Aegon could have been born with silver or dark brown hair.

Actually, the pairing of Rhaegar and Elia and the looks of their children fit with the simple Mendelian model:

Rhaegar: recessive colouring, i.e. homozygous recessive pairing, aa

Elia: dominant colouring, i.e. at least one dominant allele, A, and, as has been pointed out above, due to the Martel intermarrying with Targs, the presence of the recessive allele is possible and Elia can be heterozygous, Aa.

Now, aa + Aa gives combinations aa, aa, aa, Aa - aa again enables the recessive trait to be manifest (Aegon), Aa overrides it with the Dornish look (Rhaenys). RL genetics is way more complicated because most traits are polygenic, but the empiric observation that Jon Arryn and Ned make is pretty much like Mendel with his peas and follow the basic, though not universal, rule of dark colours overriding light ones.

Note please that the terms "dominant" and "recessive" refer only to making a trait visible or hidden, they do not affect which allele is inherited, that is a random process.

Yeah as far as Westeros Genetics are concerned only the Baratheon's seem to have an Uber Gene!

BTW, could someone explain me why the presence of stretch marks is supposed to be an indicator that Lemore = Ashara? To my best knowledge, they are only a proof that someone gave birth, and on the other hand, not everyone who gave birth must have stretchmarks.

Because Ashara was suppose to have had a child, was a Targ loyalist, friends with Ella, & her suicide seems a bit strange .

[Ygrain]

Yeah as far as Westeros Genetics are concerned only the Baratheon's seem to have an Uber Gene!

Ever heard of homozygous dominant pairing? Robert's black hair, in this case AA, when pairing with a light-haired woman (Varys's recollection of the bastards' mothers) always yields an Aa outcome, i.e. black, and blue eyes (aa) are not implausible to be passed on, either, as light-haired people tend to be light-eyed.

Because Ashara was suppose to have had a child, was a Targ loyalist, friends with Ella, & her suicide seems a bit strange .

What 's so strange that a young woman whose social position is effectively ruined for life, lost her child and brother (and if she was the one who tipped Ned off on the location of ToJ, she would undoubtedly blame herself) would commit suicide?

The rest of the reasoning strongly reminds of the reasoning behind the sensational find of "Nefertiiti" a coiuple of years ago, which was finally confirmed to be a young male.

[Gi_Varotti]

BTW, could someone explain me why the presence of stretch marks is supposed to be an indicator that Lemore = Ashara? To my best knowledge, they are only a proof that someone gave birth, and on the other hand, not everyone who gave birth must have stretchmarks.

It is not. We are just a crazy bunch trying to puzzled out everything :P. She could also be one of the Sand Snakes' mother or really no one, just a common woman.

Do you think that if Ashara really had a child (be it a girl/boy, alive or stillborn, doesn't matter) its father could be Brandon Stark? Maybe he was the Stark that she fell in love with and not Ned like Cat thought.

Aegon could be their son and we know that Starks can be born with blue eyes (Benjen).

But then there's the Pisswater Prince theory, nevermind.

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

Ever heard of homozygous dominant pairing? Robert's black hair, in this case AA, when pairing with a light-haired woman (Varys's recollection of the bastards' mothers) always yields an Aa outcome, i.e. black, and blue eyes (aa) are not implausible to be passed on, either, as light-haired people tend to be light-eyed.

Yes but everyone in the Baratheon family always turned out with black hair! They have Targaryen in their background, they have other Lannister's in their background, yet somehow no Baratheon ever winds up with light hair!

What 's so strange that a young woman whose social position is effectively ruined for life, lost her child and brother (and if she was the one who tipped Ned off on the location of ToJ, she would undoubtedly blame herself) would commit suicide?

The rest of the reasoning strongly reminds of the reasoning behind the sensational find of "Nefertiiti" a coiuple of years ago, which was finally confirmed to be a young male.

Well, the loss of the child was a while before, I know that that may not matter, but still it gives pause. Her social position would be fine in Dorne. Losing a sibling can be terrible, yes but she did have obligations to the rest of her family.& yes if she tipped Ned off as to the TOJ, she would feel guilty. But my answer was only to answer your question as to why we think stretch marks might be a clue that Lemore is Ashara. Now if it turns out she isn't all the reasons you listed are mostl likely true. But if she is, then it was a clue GRRM left for us to find. It's that simple.

[WiDMNDBAMMD]

It fits nice in a couple ways, I like it kinda but still there's a lot of people that could be Septa Lemore. Ashara being Lemore just puts more possible reunions together. Like Barristan or Cersei or Jon Snow?

We know that Jon Corrington was found in exile and helped raise/groom Aegon. The same thing could've been done with Ashara Dayne.

Varys wants this kid to grow up to be like his father. There's an advantage with him, everyone assumes he's dead. He's not off running like Viserys and Dany. Ashara would be loyal to him like Jon would.

Varys didn't put all his Tangerians in one basket though. There was also the possible marriage alliance with Dorne and Viserys.

Now here's my "I'm sure I'm not the first person to point out this twist"

Ashara did commit suicide, however just like the Elder Brother who died at the Trident, she came back to life. She gets more devoted to the faith with the seven. She now believes the gods have a purpose for her to live. That reason helping Aegon grow up to be a good leader by teaching him as a Septa.

This twist is just total crack pot though, because now how does Varys even find her? She just happens to find a dead prince along with a dead exiled lord in Essos?

I think the most important thing we know isn't who Lemore is, it's important to know that she's loyal to him, like Jon Corrington.

Tyrion thinks there's something more to her, so there probably is, he usually figures out people pretty well.

Still this pretty weak, there's a lot of people still loyal to the Tangerans and some would've probably been happy to leave Westros and become a septa(if they weren't already) after Robert took the Iron Throne.

[Waylin Stark]

It could be, but I'd prefer it if it wasn't.

I'm pretty sure Ashara jumped off a tower and died.

Also, Tyrion didn't notice anything about the eyes, which is very odd.

[Naathi Prince]

In the KotLT story told to Bran, Ashara Dayne is known as remarkable specifically because of her laughing purple eyes. While I assume she was comely overall, it seems to have been one of her defining traits. She was clothes often enough that he would have noticed something. Instead, what is more likely is that this is Tyene Sand's mother. Look at Oberyn's daughters and his life timeline.

1. Sleeps with Lord Yronwood's mistress, has the duel, poisons him.

2. Sent to Oldtown in semi-exile (Obara Sand conceived here)

3. leaves Oldtown, goes to Essos, becomes a sellsword (Lady Nym, daughter of a noblewoman of Old Volantis, with Tyene and Sarella likely born during this period as well because when the Red Viper

4 Returns to Dorne, begins relationship with Ellaria Sand. All Sandsnakes are now her daughters as well Elia, Obella, Dorea, Loreza.

It makes perfect sense for Oberyn to have met Tyene's mother in Essos, and how many Septa's are there in Essos?

[TinHouse]

All I know is the last two books are really gonna suck if they are full of "secretly-this-person" reveals. lol

Seriously there are so many theories on completely irrelevant characters being this and this person, I don't think GRRM is that crappy of a writer to fill his final books with a bunch of "secret princess, prince, king, royalty, noble,etc" type characters. At least I really hope he isn't.

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

Well not everybody is...but I would be very suprised if Septa Lemore isn't! Tyrion doesn't mention her eyes at all...because it would have been a dead giveaway if he did! Even if she isn't Ashara, GRRM doesn't want to spill that either.

[Frey family reunion]

Isn't it a lot more logical that Lemore is Mellario, Doran's wife? If Aegon is Rhaegar and Ellia's son, then Doran would be the child's uncle. Even if Aegon isn't really Ellia's son, then Doran may still believe that he is.

So Doran's wife, Mellario leaves Dorne to allegedly go back to Norvos when Quentyn at a young age is fostered at Yronwood, so roughly ten to thirteen years ago. She is allegedly angry that Doran sent Quentyn away from her. She would have left around the time that her youngest child, Trystane, is an infant. She is so upset about losing one child to being fostered, that she abandons her other one?

What if this were just a cover story, and she actually goes across the sea to help tutor the person that she and Doran may believe is his nephew? She doesn't have the striking violet eyes, that Tyrion woudl have undoubtably noticed, and she has more of a motive to tutor Aegon than Ashara does.

[Myrish Swamp Thing]

Lemore is Ashara who is Syrio Forel. I thought this was established by now.

[corbon]

I'm pretty sure Ashara jumped off a tower and died.

Why, because you were told that someone reported that? Even though they never found the body?

All we have to say she did commit suicide is a single 3rd hand report. Which is widely believed, but still not in any way confirmed. The reasons for suicide don't make sense, and there was no body.

So how come you are so sure?

[corbon]

All I know is the last two books are really gonna suck if they are full of "secretly-this-person" reveals. lol

One of the themes is that identity is so important in this society, but so incredibly easy to fake. Unless someone knows you personally, or the person you say you are personally, you are who you say you are.