[Book & TV Spoilers] What Are the Others?

[Akhôrahil]

My position on this thing (fairly traditional and conservative, I would imagine):

• One of the most important features about the world of Westeros is the struggle between elemental Fire and elemental Ice. The entire series is named after this.
  
• This is why we have the messed-up seasons as a result of some kind of metaphysical struggle between said forces -- it's not like the world has some weirdly eccentric orbit around its sun, or anything.
  
• Fire is identified with life, blood, magic, and also shadows. Most, but not all, magic in the world is driven by Fire forces.
  
• Ice is the other way 'round.
  
• R'hllor and the Great Other are the way people erroneously try to understand these forces of nature. There are no such personages.
  
• Seeing as they're forces of nature, they're hardly good or evil in themselves. The overabundance of either is a bad idea for people (as both The Long Winter and The Fall of Valyria indicate).
  
• Dragons are a kind of elemental avatars of Fire. They're "fire made flesh".
  
• The Others are a kind of elemental avatars of Ice. They're not people (at least not any kind of regular people), they were never people. They're not inherently evil, but seeing as how they're associated with cold and death, it's unsurprising that most people aren't fans of them.
  
• Some materials -- Valyrian steel, dragonglass -- are imbued with elemental fire. This is why they work exceedingly well against the Others (and it also makes them suitable for enchantment, like the Glass Candles).
  
• Some places are aspected in either direction -- The Lands of Always Winter, The Shadow, The Wall, Valyria, (Hardhome?).
  
• The magic of the Children of the Forest is not (at least not primarily) Fire-aspected -- they are the ones who sing the song of the Earth, and not Ice or Fire.
  
• The Children of the Forest are not elemental beings like the Others, and in fact seem to have a better grasp than most about the state of things and the need for balance. They're merely an older people, with a natural inclination for their brand of nature-magics.
  

Edit: And the way the Children could speak to the dead: sure they could, as an effect of Warging. 'Dead' Wargs would leave fading imprints of themselves inside animals, and more slowly fading ones in the WeirWoodWeb.

[Knight errant]

Sorry just a little paragraph about a Stark/Other connection first:

I don't buy into the "Heresy" Threads. From what I've seen you guys have gone off on wild power trips. The Kings of winter was just a title, they weren't that magical. The old rulers of the westerlands were called the Kings of the rock, does that mean they have a connection to the great evil golems beneath the earth? Doubtful. It's clear ages ago the Starks may not have been on the up and up (Because what dynasty is truly morally juist all of the time?) but I don't really see a deal with the others or some other blood in them - someone suggested the same thing of Bolton and that's just as ludicrous. The swords on the graves to keep old spirits away people are reading too much into, with GRRM you have to look at it like this : ACTUAL MAGIC and FAKE MAGIC. No one really think's Bronze Yohns armor is real so why would removing a sword bring a ghost out? No, some is real but some is not to confuse people and add depth. Vikings and many cultures did something similar.

The First men have a magical potential, the COTF unleashed it for them as I understand it. I bet the Andals might be able to do some of that stuff with training and the right sort of induction (I expect a sacrifice or weirwood paste to awaken it in the blood line at first)although it might just be their blood...

The others are a hard thing to work out, very much an Alien entity. Something must have triggered them to strike at this time. It is possible a peace was brokered between them, Humans and the COTF but I think that isn't the case because otherwise the COTF wouldn't have to keep up arms shippments with the Humans to give them dragonglass. Moreover maybe the Long night wasn't triggered by them, but the long night triggered them? I mean Black crow I think it was said something like "How could one hero with a sword defeat the invasion so instantly" it is a paraphrase but an interesting point. What if the others - as we have been led to believe - are at their strongest in night time OR when it's coldest. Say the Longnight is a regular occruance every few thousand years? Well then, they can only gather their strength inbetween these times in the lands of ALWAYS WINTER where they are strongest and with the blackout approaching maybe are pushing south? It explains why the Long night ended abruptly last time, Long night ends, human finds sword, human launches counter attack, weakened Others retreat or are killed. It possibly happend before, the First men runes are long forgotten so there wouldn't be any further evidence or mentions of it and the COTF probsbly encountered it first so they figured out the dragonglass. In this case it would have happend with the time apart maybe 2 or 3 times? That's 16,000 to 24,000 years prior to events of the books if the time scale is right. This is a theory I'm not really invested in. We can only speculate as to what they are.

What if in a GRRM twist they are the "Good guys", well just guys. Maybe they used to hold everywhere North of the neck and the Humans moved in and pushed them and all the other Magical creatures out. They push back for their land = bam long night, then get beaten and another rises amongest them to head back south for "What is theirs". It really could be anything with them.

Also the wall. I am doubtful as to how it was built. Giants and Brandon eh? Must have taken a while. Any thoughts on it? And sorry for rambaling. I'm interested in the theories other people have as I truly believe we cannot guess what they want at this stage.

[Ludd]

I think the wall has a weir wood frame and that it was made with a sacrifice for each one -(probably 100). I think that the the basis of the tale of the Ryswells when the 78 men deserted .

Martin seems to use other cultural practices to give us hints and parallels - eg the King of Pentos - lives in splendour "until" a time of crisis when they are sacrificed.

My idea is that originally in the pact each of the great houses gave one healthy son to the wall. These were sort of hostages (just like Jon's wildings).

However when there is a crisis these hostages must be sacrificed to the old gods, probably to grow new weirwoods.

Now in Roman times it is sort of known that the Celts and the Germanic tribes practiced human sacrifice of healthy children/adults, so we are not straying too far from known history here. I think there was a nasty Irish god "Cras Craddock" I think who received the human babies (think Craster anyone)

The sacrificial kings of Pentos is also very much based on historical reality , when just such patterns occurred (Read JM Frazer Golden Bough, which I very much expect GRR Martin to have read as it is a bit of a classic).

So the idea of the wall being built with blood I think refers to sacrifice. However I think the babies and the wall are two different aspects. My theory is that for weirwoods to grow the sacrifices must be adults and probably voluntary.

Note that it is only the Northern houses who send healthy non criminals voluntarily to he wall. Others are forced.

[Knight errant]

I think the wall has a weir wood frame and that it was made with a sacrifice for each one -(probably 100). I think that the the basis of the tale of the Ryswells when the 78 men deserted .

Martin seems to use other cultural practices to give us hints and parallels - eg the King of Pentos - lives in splendour "until" a time of crisis when they are sacrificed.

My idea is that originally in the pact each of the great houses gave one healthy son to the wall. These were sort of hostages (just like Jon's wildings).

However when there is a crisis these hostages must be sacrificed to the old gods, probably to grow new weirwoods.

Now in Roman times it is sort of known that the Celts and the Germanic tribes practiced human sacrifice of healthy children/adults, so we are not straying too far from known history here. I think there was a nasty Irish god "Cras Craddock" I think who received the human babies (think Craster anyone)

The sacrificial kings of Pentos is also very much based on historical reality , when just such patterns occurred (Read JM Frazer Golden Bough, which I very much expect GRR Martin to have read as it is a bit of a classic).

So the idea of the wall being built with blood I think refers to sacrifice. However I think the babies and the wall are two different aspects. My theory is that for weirwoods to grow the sacrifices must be adults and probably voluntary.

Note that it is only the Northern houses who send healthy non criminals voluntarily to he wall. Others are forced.

I agree with the Noble houses maybe having to give up a son or send men to surve, but maybe not the sacrifice part. I'll tell you what the wall must have some other defense apart from just being a large block, surely the Others can fly/climb or mist through otherwise? The North are the only ones who send because they're the ones who realise how important it is.

Also I think you maybe be thinking of the Cromm crauch. The bloody creasant. Tigernamas ("Lord of Death" go figurel, it's a real guy) brought it to Ireland, I don't know where from but on halloween they sacrificed people in large numbers.

[Black Crow]

I don't recall that Ser Waymar Royce was "forced" to go, and nor was Donal Noye. Conversely there are actually very few on the Wall identified as Northmen. There are some, certainly, but the majority are from down south.

As to the Wal, it is as Mel say, a hinge, its a magical barrier. There's even a heretical school of thought that the ice forming the visible Wall isn't actually the barrier at all, but Winter piled up against the magical one like hoar frost on a window pane.

[Akhôrahil]

Note that it is only the Northern houses who send healthy non criminals voluntarily to he wall. Others are forced.

While this is mostly true, there some notable exceptions -- ser Waymar Royce, for instance.

[Rolex Baratheon]

Others are cold creatures which I do not think are made of ice. They seemingly are good fighting creatures and apparently graceful or majestic looking and elegant.

[The Dragon has three heads]

There's some great idea in here.

I haven't gone much into the heresy threads, but I do think that the pentheon and the alignment of its followers would not be all evil nor all good.

The personification of deities or saviour like figures and their ascension into myth and perhaps even into almost god like powers(BR mainly-but we can assume he has an equivalent, perhaps one for each "song").

Leads me to believe there is a truth basis to alot of the religious rites and practices where magick or sacrifice is involved, we aren't as yet able to be sure to if this is divine power or another force, elemental, spiritual or perhaps innate in certain races.

Theres lots of examples in fantasy of races going to war against itself , eldar, dwarves etc so i think the OPs theory is healthy in that regard but I also think that physically they are so very different, only a magical, divine or elemental influence could make that happen.

It is insinuated babies are sacrificed to the others or perhaps even grow

Into others, why do they need to do this if they are in fact descended from or were

Once COF, why is the human link needed?

[Knight errant]

I don't recall that Ser Waymar Royce was "forced" to go, and nor was Donal Noye. Conversely there are actually very few on the Wall identified as Northmen. There are some, certainly, but the majority are from down south.

As to the Wal, it is as Mel say, a hinge, its a magical barrier. There's even a heretical school of thought that the ice forming the visible Wall isn't actually the barrier at all, but Winter piled up against the magical one like hoar frost on a window pane.

Now that's an interesting statement. But what would the magical barrier look like underneath?

[Black Crow]

Invisible - being magic

[Knight errant]

Invisible - being magic

I thought maybe to that, but I thought it would work better/last longer contained in something. Especially with the lore being stuff like glamours worked better when contained in an item and such. Surely it applies elsewhere?...

[Nobody of the canals]

Sorry just a little paragraph about a Stark/Other connection first:

I don't buy into the "Heresy" Threads. From what I've seen you guys have gone off on wild power trips. The Kings of winter was just a title, they weren't that magical. The old rulers of the westerlands were called the Kings of the rock, does that mean they have a connection to the great evil golems beneath the earth? Doubtful. It's clear ages ago the Starks may not have been on the up and up (Because what dynasty is truly morally juist all of the time?) but I don't really see a deal with the others or some other blood in them - someone suggested the same thing of Bolton and that's just as ludicrous. The swords on the graves to keep old spirits away people are reading too much into, with GRRM you have to look at it like this : ACTUAL MAGIC and FAKE MAGIC. No one really think's Bronze Yohns armor is real so why would removing a sword bring a ghost out? No, some is real but some is not to confuse people and add depth. Vikings and many cultures did something similar.

The First men have a magical potential, the COTF unleashed it for them as I understand it. I bet the Andals might be able to do some of that stuff with training and the right sort of induction (I expect a sacrifice or weirwood paste to awaken it in the blood line at first)although it might just be their blood...

The others are a hard thing to work out, very much an Alien entity. Something must have triggered them to strike at this time. It is possible a peace was brokered between them, Humans and the COTF but I think that isn't the case because otherwise the COTF wouldn't have to keep up arms shippments with the Humans to give them dragonglass. Moreover maybe the Long night wasn't triggered by them, but the long night triggered them? I mean Black crow I think it was said something like "How could one hero with a sword defeat the invasion so instantly" it is a paraphrase but an interesting point. What if the others - as we have been led to believe - are at their strongest in night time OR when it's coldest. Say the Longnight is a regular occruance every few thousand years? Well then, they can only gather their strength inbetween these times in the lands of ALWAYS WINTER where they are strongest and with the blackout approaching maybe are pushing south? It explains why the Long night ended abruptly last time, Long night ends, human finds sword, human launches counter attack, weakened Others retreat or are killed. It possibly happend before, the First men runes are long forgotten so there wouldn't be any further evidence or mentions of it and the COTF probsbly encountered it first so they figured out the dragonglass. In this case it would have happend with the time apart maybe 2 or 3 times? That's 16,000 to 24,000 years prior to events of the books if the time scale is right. This is a theory I'm not really invested in. We can only speculate as to what they are.

What if in a GRRM twist they are the "Good guys", well just guys. Maybe they used to hold everywhere North of the neck and the Humans moved in and pushed them and all the other Magical creatures out. They push back for their land = bam long night, then get beaten and another rises amongest them to head back south for "What is theirs". It really could be anything with them.

Also the wall. I am doubtful as to how it was built. Giants and Brandon eh? Must have taken a while. Any thoughts on it? And sorry for rambaling. I'm interested in the theories other people have as I truly believe we cannot guess what they want at this stage.

:bowdown: Other Ahai. I like it!

[King's Ruin]

I resist this idea that the CotF and The Others share a genetic origin. The Others are built like warriors, CotF like... well, children. Is a split in ideology really enough to warrant some kind of bizarre magical fast-track evolution, where the bad guys come out big and tough and the good guys remain dwarfs? If this were true, shouldn't they have matching eyes at the very least? As I recall, The Others have human-shaped white eyes and the CotF some wierd alien peepers. Based on their size and appearance alone, I think the most probable origin of The Others is that they were once human. They have certainly aged.

Try this: perhaps the CotF turned some First Men that way as a punishment or something and then couldn't control the monster they'd made and have been trying to make up for it ever since?

[Black Crow]

Based on their size and appearance alone, I think the most probable origin of The Others is that they were once human. They have certainly aged.

That's the ones in the show. The "real" ones look quite different:

'The Others are not dead. They are strange, beautiful… think, oh… the Sidhe made of ice, something like that… a different sort of life… inhuman, elegant, dangerous.

[King's Ruin]

That's the ones in the show. The "real" ones look quite different:

'The Others are not dead. They are strange, beautiful… think, oh… the Sidhe made of ice, something like that… a different sort of life… inhuman, elegant, dangerous.

Of course! I haven't read A Game of Thrones since before the TV show came out but I remember now - the first scene of the book right? That deserter sees them quite clearly hiding up a tree... they are

wearing multi-coloured shimmering ice armour or something right?

I don't have a copy out here in Lagos, Nigeria where I am right now (or back in the UK for that matter, it was AGES ago)

edit: thought I better cover it up

[King's Ruin]

My God, I just realised the Others can talk... do you think we'll ever have some proper Other characters, speaking at length to our characters in the old tongue or something?

[Black Crow]

Oh I should think so. How else will we learn of their history and purpose as promised by GRRM.

[King's Ruin]

Ah yes and there is the harsh 'mocking laughter' to consider. What's the only thing more terrifying than a Whitewalker? A cynical Whitewalker.

[Black Crow]

I don't have a copy out here in Lagos, Nigeria where I am right now...

Presumably dreaming of snow?

[King's Ruin]

http://john-picacio.myshopify.com/collections/song-of-ice-fire/products/jp011 for anyone who hasn't seen the superb depiction of the Whitewalkers by Jim Picacio, approved by GRRM