[Book & TV Spoilers] What Are the Others?

[nanother]

I like the idea of a faction of CotF being behind the Others in some way - it is hinted in various small ways that the relationship between the CotF/Others/Starks/FM is more complicated than it first seems, however I can't buy into theories saying that the whole race is secretly supprting the Others, so this is the compromise that makes the most sense to me.

I feel a bit uneasy about this particular theory, though, partly because I'm highly suspicious of attempts to explain everything with 'warging'.

Anyway, what we know of the Others:

• they leave no footprint in the fresh snow and can possibly turn into mist. That, to me suggest that they're essentially something ethereal, but able to condense to a solid form.
  
• we don't know for sure whether the WW control the wights (it could be something like the Great Mother), but if they do then they 1) control lots of them 2) maintain control even while some of them are bein torn to pieces
  
• in any case, someone does seem to control the wights in some way, at least during the first wight attack at CB
  
• they wear 'armour' and have 'flesh' and 'bones', however all those melt when stabbed with dragonglass. Although, the flesh might turn into mist instead, will have to look it up again.
  
• they're sentient, talk and laugh and have some sort of social code
  

There is probably loads more that I'm forgetting about.

What we know about skinchanging:

• so far we only ever have it applied to living things
  
• or alternatively, things with eyes, natural or carved
  
• I think BR's body might be biologically dead - with roots grwing through his skull, I can't imagine his brain is still functional...
  
• it seems to be possible to maintain some basic level of continous control without too much effort (Varamyr's bear and shadowcat don't try to run off at every opportunity)
  
• the host affects the skinchanger to some extent. It varies, though, with wolves it sounds more like a linking of spirits, whereas with Hodor it sounds like overtaking completely
  

Again there's probably loads I don't remember.

I guess we don't know enough to see how similar controlling zombies is to warging and how powerful a warg has to be to do it, but seems like it could be related. And we don't know what the warging abilities of an average CotF are. If they bonded with ravens on a regular basis, it could have been quite common, it's even possible that all of them had the ability.

Zombie warging might or might not have been the reason for the Children to split up...I think some of them wanting peace and others wanting revenge would be sufficient reason for that.

However, if we accept that they transform humans to become WW, seeing how rare skinchanging is in humans, it seems problematic to infuse all of them with 'the gift' - as the name implies, it's not something that can be controlled.

:dunno: have to go now, will think about it some more.

[nanother]

Maester Luwin says in ACoK, "The histories say the crannogmen grew close to the CotF in the days when the greenseers tried to bring the waters down upon the Neck. It may be that they have secret knowledge."

My point is close connections to interbreeding is a big leap. Inter-species breeding seems a very big leap of a assumption to make with any groups. And while being a Heretic, I think that more evidence than "grew close" or blood ties would be warranted. Also, we have only met two crannogs, the Reeds.

Thanks for that quote, I couldn't find where that idea came from...

[7V3N]

However, if we accept that they transform humans to become WW, seeing how rare skinchanging is in humans, it seems problematic to infuse all of them with 'the gift' - as the name implies, it's not something that can be controlled.

Great overall post. On this thought, perhaps that is why Craster's sons are special, and the incest itself is significant.

[nanother]

^Possibly. Although, both the hereditary aspect and the 'gift' aspect seem to be important, so not sure even incest would help.

Also, Craster only has been around for maybe 30-40 years or so.

I'm thinking more along the lines of the Others mirroring the CotF roles: from what I've seen so far it's not necessary for the WW to warg the wights. Even if they're all capable, it'd make more sense to assume that their role is mainly scouting and intimidating. And most of what the wights do can be just their default activity: kill anything that's alive. There are very few times when assuming external control is needed to explain their behaviour (the CB attack being one such occasion). So if we assume the Others are a branch of CotF, they could have their own version of 'greenseers', mostly watching, and interfering as needed, whereas the WW would do the mre mundane tasks...

ETA: even if they have nothing to do with CotF, still makes sense for them to have specialised roles...

[7V3N]

^Possibly. Although, both the hereditary aspect and the 'gift' aspect seem to be important, so not sure even incest would help.

Also, Craster only has been around for maybe 30-40 years or so.

I'm thinking more along the lines of the Others mirroring the CotF roles: from what I've seen so far it's not necessary for the WW to warg the wights. Even if they're all capable, it'd make more sense to assume that their role is mainly scouting and intimidating. And most of what the wights do can be just their default activity: kill anything that's alive. There are very few times when assuming external control is needed to explain their behaviour (the CB attack being one such occasion). So if we assume the Others are a branch of CotF, they could have their own version of 'greenseers', mostly watching, and interfering as needed, whereas the WW would do the mre mundane tasks...

ETA: even if they have nothing to do with CotF, still makes sense for them to have specialised roles...

All very possible. We have no evidence to suggest warging is even involved, but it is just a magic that we know to exist, so we naturally try to apply it to the unknown. The Others are a complete mystery. That is why, as I am sure you have seen nanother, I am constantly spitting out new theories, not really invested in any since I we have such little evidence to support us. Most of it is "these would make sense for this theory" but we run through that with all sorts of theories.

The main thing about this theory that I am stuck to, is that the Others and the Children have a much more complex relationship then we are led to believe, and (my belief) not always enemies.

[nanother]

:agree:

Bran's remark how men would fight where the Singers were said about their impending extinction sure sounded like foreshadowing to me...

[SynthFG]

To know more about the Others we need to here more about the NightsKing and his love

John Snow was onto something with his idea of trying to experiment with the Dead in order to study them, but then placed them on the wrong side of The Wall :bang: , honestly he's told that the wall is more than a physical barrier but has magic defences too by both Mel and Sam and yet he's too thick to understand why his pet corpses aren't coming back to life

TBH I think were looking at a battle of elemental and opposing gods

Storm God (Air) vs Drowned God (Water)

Rhilor (Fire) vs ???? (Ice)

The question being is the Ice god related to the Others,

and is the Ice god related to The Stranger / he of Many Faces

[CBroome1979]

I think that there are lots of good ideas and thoughts here, just wanted to add something of my own. In Bran's first dream, where he is flying around, seeing what can be seen, he flies North. Far to the north, past the wall and the Lands of Always Winter, and encountered a curtain of light and something truly awful. Bloodraven tells him that THIS is why he must live...because Winter is Coming. So there's SOMETHING up there, I don't know if it's Hell Central, or some actual being controlling everything, but something is going on up there that is behind all of this.

[kissdbyfire]

I think that there are lots of good ideas and thoughts here, just wanted to add something of my own. In Bran's first dream, where he is flying around, seeing what can be seen, he flies North. Far to the north, past the wall and the Lands of Always Winter, and encountered a curtain of light and something truly awful. Bloodraven tells him that THIS is why he must live...because Winter is Coming. So there's SOMETHING up there, I don't know if it's Hell Central, or some actual being controlling everything, but something is going on up there that is behind all of this.

And when he wakes up, he finally names his direwolf: Summer. :)

[7V3N]

Bran feels that fear after seeing "The Heart of Winter". What this is is a complete mystery--like the one in the House of the Undying; a Great Other that Mel always speaks of; some Stark connection to the North? But whatever it is, Bran naming Summer seems connected. He also has never recalled anything about the HoW after that. This makes me think that Bran saw something personal. This was something that did not just scare him, but it terrified him so much that he has kept it out of his mind. I am inclined to think he saw something connecting the Starks to the Others.

The Starks used to hold the title of the Kings of Winter, different from Kings in the North. Winter is largely associated with the North and the old races. It seems to me that the Starks were not kings of the First Men, but kings of the old races AND First Men. This is concurrent with stories of wildlings laying with Others to create half human children, what Theon sees in the Winterfell crypts (a dream IIRC), and the possibility of Craster being a Stark and his offering of his sons.

Bran has been described as a summer's child. So perhaps he is the one to bring the balance between ice and fire? A summer child with the blood of winter.

[Lord Liam DarkStark]

interesting. I am much more convinced that there is a connection. But I hate the old gods being behind th blue eyes. But more evidence is always pointing to that. And in the show with jon witnessing the taking of craster's child. And then in the books when sam is about to run with gilly. The elder wife says her brothers are coming. And that's when the others were coming. But why would bran the builder build the wall if the starks were in league with these others. I think they are still an enemy.

[Lord Liam DarkStark]

this could have been mentioned before, but I remember some time earlier in the series, someone said that wargs began to take on the appearance of what they warged. If some of the CotF warged the dead, after a while wouldn't they start looking dead? The north being very cold, the dead would often be frozen, so that could explain the icy aspect of the others...

Well when bran sees the room full of singers of the earth he thought quite a few had died. But they were on weirdwood thrones I think. But I don't think the whole warging wights is what's going on. They are definitely controlled. I'm not sure if its full control or partial. But there is definitely a sense of order to the wights and others.

[7V3N]

Craster's sons actually. Also, GRRM has stated in an interview that the next couple of books will explore the connection between the CotF and the Others.

I am on the side of gods not existing in the series.

• Old Gods = Collective consciousness of greenseers in weirwoods.
  
• R'hllor and the Great Other = Comes from worshiping the side of fire or ice in the Long Night.
  
• Drowned God = (my pet theory) Comes from the story of Azor Ahai being brought back to life after drowning (CPR or fire kiss) near the Iron Isle on his way East to Westeros from Asshai.
  

Well when bran sees the room full of singers of the earth he thought quite a few had died. But they were on weirdwood thrones I think. But I don't think the whole warging wights is what's going on. They are definitely controlled. I'm not sure if its full control or partial. But there is definitely a sense of order to the wights and others.

I think it is warging, especially after the Varamyr prologue. The way his soul drifts before finding One-Eye makes me really curious if that is how Bran will "fly". I have also started thinking the Others could be lost souls. Skinchangers who left their body as it died but had nowhere to go. How they are manifested is beyond me, but GRRM constantly dropping how Bran was supposed to be a great knight combined with his work with Hodor makes me think Bran will wield a sword in combat, perhaps a sword made of ice.

[Lord Liam DarkStark]

I think the Others are completly different from the CotF and I do believe the CotF are the real evil. Not the surviving Children in present, but the ones in the past. Before the arrival of the First Men. Look they started a twothousand year war because the First Men chopped down the trees. I could understand how they were angry because of the Weirwoods chopped down. The FM could have sparred out this one species very easily, but the CotF wanted to avenge every goddamn tree. Thats my opinion why it took so long till the signing of the pact. As for the Others, they are a race that literally bring the cold. They can kill alone with their presence. Sure the CotF hated them. This makes the CotF to fascist, who killed them just because they were different. The CotF knew about the Dragonglass and kept the Others from leaving the Lands of Always Winter. The Weirwoods might have been their borderpatrol. As the First Men arrived and decimated the CotF the Others were given a chance to repopulate and conquer the southern lands. Their only motive was vengeance. Due the persecution the Others became extremists and aware to use their powers and caused the Long Night. Theirs power to animate the dead comes from their nature and connection to The Great Other like the Red Priests can ressurect aswell. It is their nature they are feared for and their answer to this fear is hate. Like a shadow is created by the light the "evil" Others are created by the "pure" CotF. And I'm sure the CotF of past times were pure fascist. They shattered the Stepstones and tried to shatter the Neck, too. This sounds like a cry for "Endsieg" for me. This is no noble sacrifiece to safe their precious trees, this is madness.

I don't think this is nazi germany. We are talking about westeros here not fascit oppression. I couldn't disagree with you more on the singers. They were right for vengeance. Westeros is their land. The wierwoods their gods.

[Net-Viper X]

Its more likely the Others are the Nazi's of Westeros, since they have "Wight Power".

:D

[Black Crow]

...But why would bran the builder build the wall if the starks were in league with these others.

According to GRRM he didn't. Its just a part of the mythology he created for Westeros and nobody knows if he ever really existed.

[Melifeather]

To know more about the Others we need to here more about the NightsKing and his love

John Snow was onto something with his idea of trying to experiment with the Dead in order to study them, but then placed them on the wrong side of The Wall :bang: , honestly he's told that the wall is more than a physical barrier but has magic defences too by both Mel and Sam and yet he's too thick to understand why his pet corpses aren't coming back to life

TBH I think were looking at a battle of elemental and opposing gods

Storm God (Air) vs Drowned God (Water)

Rhilor (Fire) vs ???? (Ice)

The question being is the Ice god related to the Others,

and is the Ice god related to The Stranger / he of Many Faces

I see your point about the wights not waking up while entombed in the ice of the Wall, but when they were brought down to the south side of the Wall, they woke up, and one attacked LC Mormont.

Bran feels that fear after seeing "The Heart of Winter". What this is is a complete mystery--like the one in the House of the Undying; a Great Other that Mel always speaks of; some Stark connection to the North? But whatever it is, Bran naming Summer seems connected. He also has never recalled anything about the HoW after that. This makes me think that Bran saw something personal. This was something that did not just scare him, but it terrified him so much that he has kept it out of his mind. I am inclined to think he saw something connecting the Starks to the Others.

The Starks used to hold the title of the Kings of Winter, different from Kings in the North. Winter is largely associated with the North and the old races. It seems to me that the Starks were not kings of the First Men, but kings of the old races AND First Men. This is concurrent with stories of wildlings laying with Others to create half human children, what Theon sees in the Winterfell crypts (a dream IIRC), and the possibility of Craster being a Stark and his offering of his sons.

Bran has been described as a summer's child. So perhaps he is the one to bring the balance between ice and fire? A summer child with the blood of winter.

Perhaps this is what GRRM meant when he said the ending would be "bittersweet"? Although "Kings of Winter" could be a title they "earned" after defeating "winter"?

Currently I am reading GRRM's book "Fevre Dream", where he's got vampires established as a different race, and not anything that humans can become, unlike the traditional vampire stories. Furthermore, they're set up so that we are able to empathize with their "position" due to them being a misunderstood race. So, the Others are probably also a misunderstood, different "race", separate from the Children of the Forest, but for some reason, the CofF are the only ones that remember their weaknesses. I do not remember if CofF live extraordinarily longer lives than humans, but they are magical creatures and I do not believe that they are "cousins" to the Others.

[Lord Liam DarkStark]

I see your point about the wights not waking up while entombed in the ice of the Wall, but when they were brought down to the south side of the Wall, they woke up, and one attacked LC Mormont.

Perhaps this is what GRRM meant when he said the ending would be "bittersweet"? Although "Kings of Winter" could be a title they "earned" after defeating "winter"?

Currently I am reading GRRM's book "Fevre Dream", where he's got vampires established as a different race, and not anything that humans can become, unlike the traditional vampire stories. Furthermore, they're set up so that we are able to empathize with their "position" due to them being a misunderstood race. So, the Others are probably also a misunderstood, different "race", separate from the Children of the Forest, but for some reason, the CofF are the only ones that remember their weaknesses. I do not remember if CofF live extraordinarily longer lives than humans, but they are magical creatures and I do not believe that they are "cousins" to the Others.

I think they live much longer. Although bloodraven said if they are marked as choosen (with the different colored eyes) then their lives on earth are few. But I agree I don't think they are cousins or the cotf that went bad. I think they are their own race and most likely misunderstood. But is that their own fault? Possibly, shouldn't they try and have a pact with humans if they are misunderstood.... that's what the children did.

[7V3N]

I believe Leaf says that they had been around for thousands of man-years. It could be that she means their race (though that seems obvious since they were in Westeros before the First Men), or telling of their long lives.

[Ludd]

Just do NOT get this whole. - children are the others heresy - There is no physical or mental resemblance.

Rather whoever mention out of space is close - Irr ir Jirri said that the bragons came when the moon broke in two and so did the winter

"it is known"

The Others are different and dangerous to like forms (including humans, children, giants). Not ure about dragons.

Personally I think each character in the book is in some sense or representative of a god or some such

On other posts I have explained how the Westeros Houses represent the codified Saxon gods. There are clear markers in the text for this.The Childremn of course are the nymphs and dryads worshippped by our earliest stone age ancestors.

The Septons and the formal 7 are the Catholic church with its saints etc

Rhallor is less christian than muslem or perhaps evangelical Christianity, however note that all the names are clearly eastern

Less clear is the possibility that the Starks and Northerners represent the Celtic (welsh) gods but I think the sings are there

Bran=Bran (but also Balder of the nordic gods)

Arya = Arianwen

Ned= Nudd or Ludd (the dominant maile deity)

Mance I think might be Manawaden.

Oddly enough Dany could be Danu, the mother goddess who was married to Beli god of war I think

Any way the Danu are sky gods - associated with fire and the sun, summer

The family of Nudd are associated with the sky but play a middle role

The family of Lyr (including Manawaden) are associated with the sea, death and darkness but are still a key part of the cycle of life. ie not bad guys.

BUT there are also vicious monsters out there whom they ALL hate.