Do you agree with Arya's choices?

[The Sleeper]

Except she didn't try to kill him at that point. She was playing with needle and Sandor wole up and thought she was going to kill him. Then he begged her to do it. Besides If she wanted to kill him at that point there would be no trying involved. He was quite incapacitated.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

I think that's a bit unfair. Maybe the guy raped his daughter. Maybe he moonlighted as a kitty killer. We don't really know how the FM works at the management level to judge their actions. We do know they disapproved of her killing Dareon. I'm not disagreeing, just saying there is alot we are not aware of.

It is implied that he was an insurance cheat. For that alone, he deserved to die for not paying the families of the deceased seamen. I love Arya and I have absolutley no problem with her actions. I'm not sure how folks can make excuses for Cersei Lannister's behavior and dislike Arya for doing what is necessary for her survival.

[Elaena Targaryen]

I didnt said killing just for the fun of it, if I thought so, I would have gone with few psychiatric disorders as well. Also while we are in the fantasy business Martin's is not this type of fantasy. She is eleven and she had no problem to murder a guard, a fellow northmen whose only fault was to be given a gate duity and she goes straight torward him and slit his throat just because she decided that she has to leave the castle NOW.

Ok, anyone feel free to refresh my memory because I need to read all of this again. That being said I think we can be a little more objective here. First Arya never revealed who she is to Roose, is this because of the history that House Stark has with House Bolton, maybe. They were rivals for what 7000 years and the Boltons still keep the skins that they flayed from the Starks like they are trophies. Look this is The Ned's daughter and I'm sure she knew to be caustious with most other houses. Another thing that I'm not to clear on is what did Arya think would happen if she was caught escaping? If she showed any concern with this, and knowing what we know as readers in hind sight, she may have had enough of a reason to really fear getting caught. Everything that was going down at Harrenhall at the time was some seriously stressfull shit for an 11 year old to deal with, one nightmare after another. I mean, knowing what I know of course, if I was in her shoes I can't say if I would do the same, but I might, I don't know I've never been in a situation that scary.

[mor2]

Except she didn't try to kill him at that point. She was playing with needle and Sandor wole up and thought she was going to kill him. Then he begged her to do it. Besides If she wanted to kill him at that point there would be no trying involved. He was quite incapacitated.

Maybe you right, but to me it sounds like she did:

If I just rode off and left him, he'd die all by himself. He'll die of fever, and lie there beneath that tree until the end of days. But maybe it would be better if she killed him herself. She had killed the squire at the inn and he hadn't done anything except grab her arm. The Hound had killed Mycah. Mycah and more. I bet he's killed a hundred Mycahs. He probably would have killed her too, if not for the ransom. Needle glinted as she drew it. Polliver had kept it nice and sharp, at least. She turned her body sideways in a water dancer's stance without even thinking about it. Dead leaves crunched beneath her feet. Quick as a snake, she thought. Smooth as summer silk.

His eyes opened. "You remember where the heart is?" he asked in a hoarse whisper.

It seem like she choose to kill him, passing the building up the courage, justification and disassociation phases and going for the execution part, before she was interpreted... anyway if you want to defend her, you can use the vengeance excuse, I believe he was on her list, no?

Justified as or not, what I am asking what kind of person can make those choices? Like I said, she knows Sandor tried to bring her to safety, she knows he saved her, she knows he is helpless and dieing. (for that matter how can she judge him for following orders to kill that boy when she chose to murder someone herself).

[The Swaggering Bravo]

In that case I figure that you would love a Gregor or Ramsay POV - no sentimental BS and only action from start to finish, and the Seven help anyone who gives the wrong look.

Indeed I would, it would be fascinating to see inside the minds of their ilk.

[Serie]

Maybe you right, but to me it sounds like she did:

It seem like she choose to kill him, passing the building up the courage and the justification phases and going for the execution part, before she was interpreted... anyway if you want to defend her, you can use the vengeance excuse, I believe he was on her list, no?

Justified as or not, what I am asking what kind of person can make those choices? Like I said, she knows Sandor tried to bring her to safety, she knows he saved her, she knows he is helpless and dieing. (for that matter how can she judge him for following orders to kill that boy when she chose to murder someone herself).

does she really knows that? it is easy for us to come down to such a conclusion, because we see the full picture, but can she?

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

Ok, anyone feel free to refresh my memory because I need to read all of this again. That being said I think we can be a little more objective here. First Arya never revealed who she is to Roose, is this because of the history that House Stark has with House Bolton, maybe. They were rivals for what 7000 years and the Boltons still keep the skins that they flayed from the Starks like they are trophies. Look this is The Ned's daughter and I'm sure she knew to be caustious with most other houses. Another thing that I'm not to clear on is what did Arya think would happen if she was caught escaping? If she showed any concern with this, and knowing what we know as readers in hind sight, she may have had enough of a reason to really fear getting caught. Everything that was going down at Harrenhall at the time was some seriously stressfull shit for an 11 year old to deal with, one nightmare after another. I mean, knowing what I know of course, if I was in her shoes I can't say if I would do the same, but I might, I don't know I've never been in a situation that scary.

At one point Rorge and others had raped a little girl about Ayra's age and had her on display. The same Rorge who repeatedly threatened to rape her. Why would any SANE person risk being caught trying to escape? She did the right thing, kill the guard who in the worst case scenario might rape her or stand idly by while others rape her, or worse, or save herself.

[mor2]

the question is why she had to escape in the first place or why she had to escape now? what was the threat to her that she couldnt devise a plan that doesnt include the murder of another human being?

does she really knows that? it is easy for us to come down to such a conclusion, because we see the full picture, but can she?

I have no doubt about it, at first she tried to escape but then she went with him willingly, she knew where and why they were traveling, I dont recal if she realized that he saved her ass at the Twins but it is irrelevant, few moments before she tried to kill him, she was treating him and binding his wounds!

you know it is one thing to shoot at someone from a far, another to shoot when you can see his face and a whole different league to treat someone, which means make a connection to that person, know him, know his name, see him suffer and then decide to murder him in his bed in cold blood.

EDITed.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

the question is why she had to escape in the first place or why she had to escape now?

Reread the book if you really have to ask that question.

[Monk Meth-]

she should have killed tywin and the mountain

[Serie]

she should have killed tywin and the mountain

Right! that would have saved us from at least two books and the story might be over by now :P :P :P

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

Yes, but Martin was correct in not having her do it, because we needed The Red Viper/Mountain fight and for Tywin to be crossbowed by Tyrion. :drunk:

[mor2]

Reread the book if you really have to ask that question.

I am asking you as I dont remember any reason whatsoever why she had to leave at that moment as opposed to waiting a day and consulting her friends on how to get out without murdering anyone or sneaking out with Bolton convoy ...

[The Sleeper]

Maybe you right, but to me it sounds like she did:

It seem like she choose to kill him, passing the building up the courage, justification and disassociation phases and going for the execution part, before she was interpreted... anyway if you want to defend her, you can use the vengeance excuse, I believe he was on her list, no?

Justified as or not, what I am asking what kind of person can make those choices? Like I said, she knows Sandor tried to bring her to safety, she knows he saved her, she knows he is helpless and dieing. (for that matter how can she judge him for following orders to kill that boy when she chose to murder someone herself).

Actulally, I didn't read the passage that way. I read it as follows: She had finished dressing his wounds, had nothing to do, took out Needle to practice and while contemplating what to do next. Sandor woke and saw her and thought she was going to kill him. Why would she slip in to fighting stance to finish off a wounded man? Why would she have dressed his wounds in the first place? It has more to do with how I pictured the scene in my head. I thought Arya was standing a few yards away from Sandor, not in front of him, facing him. You could be right. I'm not sure now. Oh well, I'll guess we'll have to wait for the show.

In any case I am not trying to defend her in this case. I think what she did was the worst thing to do in this case. Leaving a man to suffer before he dies is cruel and she isn't usualy cruel. I think however it was because of indecision rather than cruelty.

To your other question, the person who can make that choice is the one who has to. She needed to do something about the Hound. And for me killing someone because of suffering harm at that person's hands can be justified emotionally if not rationally. Killing on orders cannot.

[Ice Turtle]

About killing on order:

How it is different from oh so honorable Kingsguard. Balon Swann, probably the most decent current member was about to murder Trystane.

Even Night Watch isn't better. Jon seriously considered murdering Mance in front of his wife.

I just hope that when Fate will order brothers from QI to take weapons certain gravedigger will tell them what buggering hypocrites they are.

[The Sleeper]

I am asking you as I dont remember any reason whatsoever why she had to leave at that moment as opposed to waiting a day and consulting her friends on how to get out without murdering anyone or sneaking out with Bolton convoy ...

Bolton had already told her that he was going to leave her for Hoat. Also Gendry and Hotpie would have just said no if she hadn't blindsided them and she couldn't count on Hotpie to keep that secret.

[Dena]

I am asking you as I dont remember any reason whatsoever why she had to leave at that moment as opposed to waiting a day and consulting her friends on how to get out without murdering anyone or sneaking out with Bolton convoy ...

She had to leave Harrenhall because the northeners were going to give the castle to Vargo and his Bloody Mummers, who included Roger and Bitter, who told her more than once that they were going to rape her and who knows what else.The only reason they didn't do anything when the Lannisters were there was because they were afraid of Jaqen, who seemed to like Arya.

I was socked the first time I red that chapter, I didn't expect Arya to kill the guard, but she needed to put distance between her and Bolton fast. She isn's strong enough to knock him out, and even if she did the guard would wake up a few minutes later and give the alarm

She was watched all day, she had to run errands for Roose, so she couldn't scape then without someone going after her in a moment, and sneaking in Bolton's party was risky, three children between a bunch of soldiers? someone was going to realize, and Bolton was pretty clear about what would happen to her if she disobeyed.

I didn't like that she killed the guard, but when I think about what could have happened to her if she had stayed or tried to go with Bolton, I understand why she did it.

[kephv]

I didnt said killing just for the fun of it, if I thought so, I would have gone with few psychiatric disorders as well. Also while we are in the fantasy business Martin's is not this type of fantasy. She is eleven and she had no problem to murder a guard, a fellow northmen whose only fault was to be given a gate duity and she goes straight torward him and slit his throat just because she decided that she has to leave the castle NOW.

What do you by "this type of fantasy?" She's clearly able to blend in and live a normal life, as shown by her Cat of the Canals chapter.

Maybe you right, but to me it sounds like she did:

It seem like she choose to kill him, passing the building up the courage, justification and disassociation phases and going for the execution part, before she was interpreted... anyway if you want to defend her, you can use the vengeance excuse, I believe he was on her list, no?

Justified as or not, what I am asking what kind of person can make those choices? Like I said, she knows Sandor tried to bring her to safety, she knows he saved her, she knows he is helpless and dieing. (for that matter how can she judge him for following orders to kill that boy when she chose to murder someone herself).

I'm not sure what you're getting at here? Are you saying she should've given him mercy and killed him? To be fair, she didn't owe him that no matter what he did for her.

Or are saying she's a monster for deciding to kill him and give him mercy while he was passed out? In which case, the Hound's to blame for that; he's the one who told her about giving people mercy, afterall.

the question is why she had to escape in the first place or why she had to escape now? what was the threat to her that she couldnt devise a plan that doesnt include the murder of another human being?

It never included the murder of anyone. He just happened to be in the way and she had to leave.

[jarl the climber]

I fall on the side of agreeing with most of what Arya has done. I believe that Arya isn't that much different than Sansa, they have been forced to react to other peoples actions and desires, Arya has just fought it a lot harder than Sansa. As far as her wolf goes, I think Haggon said that you can befriend a wolf, you can even break a wolf but you can never truly tame one. We also have to consider that Aryas training as an assasinn is making Nymeria more bloodthirsty, she talks of Nymerias eating on man flesh as a point of pride, which is essentially what Arya is doing as an assasinn. I like Arya but her soul has a sickness, she feasts on death.

[mor2]

She had to leave Harrenhall because the northeners were going to give the castle to Vargo and his Bloody Mummers, who included Roger and Bitter, who told her more than once that they were going to rape her and who knows what else.The only reason they didn't do anything when the Lannisters were there was because they were afraid of Jaquen, who seemed to like Arya.

I was socked the first time I red that chapter, I didn't expect Arya to kill the guard, but she needed to put distance between her and Bolton fast. She isn's strong enough to knock him out, and even if she did the guard would wake up a few minutes later and give the alarm

She was watched all day, she had to run errands for Roose, so she couldn't scape then without someone going after her in a moment, and sneaking in Bolton's party was risky, three children between a bunch of soldiers? someone was going to realize, and Bolton was pretty clear about what would happen to her if she disobeyed.

I didn't like that she killed the guard, but when I think about what could have happened to her if she had stayed or tried to go with Bolton, I understand why she did it.

all that Bolton told her was that he means to leave without her when he will leaves, then she have that ceremony in the godswood decide she is a wolf, strong like Robb, queen of her own destiny. So she made a choice, she want to leave now, she pissed over others wishes, lies to her friends Gendry and Hotpie, putting them in danger and executing the first plan that come to her head, which included the murder of gate guard. There was certainly there was no reason to leave NOW, some planing was in order but I guess to her it some human being life doesnt matter that much.

Also, I dont remember all those Vargo/Bloody Mummers threats you mentioned, only those that were uprooted by Jaquen(who is gone for some time now), certainly no new ones.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here? Are you saying she should've given him mercy and killed him? To be fair, she didn't owe him that no matter what he did for her.

Or are saying she's a monster for deciding to kill him and give him mercy while he was passed out? In which case, the Hound's to blame for that; he's the one who told her about giving people mercy, afterall.

I am saying that you need to be totally fucked up to decide to murder in cold blood a sick person that is passed, with whom you traveled, with whom shared your meals, who defended you and saved your life and you treated him just few minuted before you decided to another type of needle work on him.

also you confuse her intent, it was murder, not mercy killing, she decided to murder him just after her mental hit list exercise. Besides the ironic part that she want to kill him for killing a peasant who attacked his king, as he was sworn todo, while she murdered a guard because she wanted to leave now. if her father would be holding the sword whose head would have fallen first?

What do you by "this type of fantasy?" She's clearly able to blend in and live a normal life, as shown by her Cat of the Canals chapter.

I disagree, i think she is still on her vengeance part, it will hit a person later on, when she will try to raise a family or we get a schizo (like Dexter).