Do you want Jon Snow to die?

[The Smiling Eye]

Feels like most of the people who wants to see him die are just deathmongers or hate him. There's no good reason for him to die. At all.

[Ghost714]

Nah, Jon's death ---> Night's Watch brothers fighting brothers, Night's Watch fighting Wildlings who are south of the wall. Leaving the way open for the White Walker invasion.

Everyone try's to use this argument, that Jon needs to die to cause chaos at the Wall, between the Queensmen, Wildlings, and Nights Watch. Frankly, saying that is ridiculous, there will be plenty of chaos at the Wall no matter what, even if Jon lives. Just the fact alone that the Nights Watch stabbed Jon, after he agreed to lead the Wildlings to Winterfell to save Mance, that alone will make the Wildlings fight the Nights Watch. Jon will be out of the picture for awhile, either healing, or waiting to be ressurected, and in that time, the Wall will be chaos. Jon was the only thing holding everything together, so things will get crazy no matter what, and that is why there is no reason for Jon to die, simply so the Wall can become chaos.

So people can stop trying to use that as a reason for why Jon "must" die.

With Jon surviving, you still get the chaos, and much much more that will come from him being alive. It's a win win really.

[Guest]

Dead, or not, whatever, I just want a better ending for book 5. The writing of the whole scenario is dumb. Not tragic, just dumb.

[Ghost714]

Dead, or not, whatever, I just want a better ending for book 5. The writing of the whole scenario is dumb. Not tragic, just dumb.

What would please you? Because I am sure GRRM would have changed it had he known your feelings about it.

GRRM had to end things the way he did for a reason. I for one am fine with it, because now everything is perfectly in place, so TWoW will be non stop crazy awesomeness all the way through.

Also, it's not like Jon's stabbing was the ending of the book, just the ending of Jon's story for ADwD.

[Guest]

What would please you? Because I am sure GRRM would have changed it had he known your feelings about it. GRRM had to end things the way he did for a reason. I for one am fine with it, because now everything is perfectly in place, so TWoW will be non stop crazy awesomeness all the way through. Also, it's not like Jon's stabbing was the ending of the book, just the ending of Jon's story for ADwD.

As if GRRM needs more coddling by his editor, now we have fans who think his every word and sentence is a masterstroke. That kind of blind faith is not how I read the series. Also, it makes no sense that one can't voice criticism of the endings of each book; the arcs should be closed without crappy cliffhangers (distinguishable from good cliffhangers, which this book does not have). I thought the ending lacked internal consistency independent of the next book (why search for Ramsay if its your sister you care more about, in fact, why use Mel to "search" for him at all; why did no one react to word of Mance in the letter if everyone else thought he was dead), the characters and their motivations were forced into an ending (how convenient that Jon's opposition is a pack of dull, unmemorable, regressive Janos Slynts that the reader is supposed to denounce, just like Chett before them; how convenient that Jon doesn't think that he needs protection or friends even though the last commander died by mutiny; how convenient that he reads the letter that publicly exposes all of his fuck ups and whips the Watch into a frothy anger; how convenient that Jon schedules a meeting with Tormund but we aren't invited to it in his OWN POV), and the introduction of "glamoring" (nothing is real; all matter is merely condensed to slow vibration, and we are merely one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively, there is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves. [Okay I stole that last part from Bill Hicks]). Also the Wall has become even more humorless, if that was even possible. Just when I thought Jon was going to TAKE LIFE BY THE BALLS and show another emotion other than Victorian meloncholia, he merely has another reason to sulk.

[Guest]

That night, Jon lay in bed, weeping. How had he possibly grown so isolated and lonely?

Lost it right about here. :lmao: :lmao:

[Yeade]

This is perhaps not the most appropriate thread for what I have to say, but I don't want to start a new one... :blush:

I'd actually be disappointed should GRRM kill Jon for good so far from the end of the series because I feel every writer of an epic drama must try his hand at the heroic archetype. So-called gray morality characters and most villains are, IMO, easy to understand, especially for modern authors and audiences who are always looking for the motivations behind every action or reaction. Heroes of Jon's presumed caliber, however, the Aragorns and Luke Skywalkers of the fictional multiverse--I think there's a certain unfathomable quality to these characters that resists the best attempts of both writers to make them believable and readers to view them as humans as opposed to, well, plot devices.

And, really, is this so surprising? There are certainly plenty of real life historical figures who qualify as epic heroes living in epic times who biographers, contemporary and later, perpetually struggle to portray. In truth, while such characters are fallible with all the foibles of humanity, there's little chance of us average folks relating to them in their defining moments. For example, I simply don't have the capacity to grasp how a soldier's first instinct can be to jump on a live grenade when he's fully aware of the consequences and has no more wish to die than anyone else. Nor can I see myself being so self-sacrificing. It's probably not a stretch to assume that most authors of epic fantasy have the same trouble.

So, how do you convey the unknowable and indescribable? What exactly motivates heroic characters? Even tried and true explanations like love or honor are somewhat inadequate, IMO, because many feel such emotions but very few act on them in the kind of spectacular fashion that makes heroes.

Luke Skywalker, for instance, forgives Darth Vader out of love for Anakin Skywalker. Accepts wholeheartedly as his father the man who, among almost two decades of dark deeds, personally cut down his mentor, killed his childhood best friend, tortured his closest loved ones, and chopped off his hand. Luke's in fact ready to die or worse to redeem this man. That's love, sure, but a love that's so beyond the experience of most of us that nebulous concepts like fate and destiny have to be thrown around.

Truly, I love reading the attempts of writers to deconstruct heroes. These are never entirely successful, of course, given the complexity of the psychology of heroism. Which basically requires a study of every coping method known to man, lol, and a resolution of contradictions like a man of peace being an exceptional killer. Inconsistent characterization abounds not because heroes are shallow personalities or exist only to serve the whims of the plot, but because heroes are just really hard to get a handle on.

Well. I've gone way off-topic with my possibly nonsensical ramblings. In conclusion, I hope GRRM continues writing Jon because I enjoy his take on the psychologically impenetrable heroic archetype.

edit:

Personally, I find Jon's characterization a great deal easier to understand if I keep in mind that he, like most heroic characters, is a master of compartmentalization and disassociation, repression and denial. His thoughts and emotions as expressed in his POV are not always reliable. Not because they're false or feigned, however, but because he himself sometimes doesn't recognize or can't articulate what's happening in his own head.

For example, I'm of the opinion that Jon's had a bit of a death wish since ASOS. Mostly survivor's guilt and angry frustration at his inability to do, well, anything. He can't avenge the deaths of his family or see to Winterfell's restoration because he's Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, but he can't shore up the defenses of the Wall enough to withstand the imminent ice zombie apocalypse either. He's too honorable to knowingly ditch his responsibilities or perform his duties with less than his best, but he's blind to his own importance and careless of his safety.

Like Dany and Tyrion in ADWD, I think Jon's kind of depressed. He's just more productive in his depression, lol. Probably because he's not suffering a crisis of identity with consequent indecisiveness but apathetic about whether he lives the next day or the day after, if not about what he must do each day.

[Ghost714]

This is perhaps not the most appropriate thread for what I have to say, but I don't want to start a new one... :blush:

I'd actually be disappointed should GRRM kill Jon for good so far from the end of the series because I feel every writer of an epic drama must try his hand at the heroic archetype. So-called gray morality characters and most villains are, IMO, easy to understand, especially for modern authors and audiences who are always looking for the motivations behind every action or reaction. Heroes of Jon's presumed caliber, however, the Aragorns and Luke Skywalkers of the fictional multiverse--I think there's a certain unfathomable quality to these characters that resists the best attempts of both writers to make them believable and readers to view them as humans as opposed to, well, plot devices.

And, really, is this so surprising? There are certainly plenty of real life historical figures who qualify as epic heroes living in epic times who biographers, contemporary and later, perpetually struggle to portray. In truth, while such characters are fallible with all the foibles of humanity, there's little chance of us average folks relating to them in their defining moments. For example, I simply don't have the capacity to grasp how a soldier's first instinct can be to jump on a live grenade when he's fully aware of the consequences and has no more wish to die than anyone else. Nor can I see myself being so self-sacrificing. It's probably not a stretch to assume that most authors of epic fantasy have the same trouble.

So, how do you convey the unknowable and indescribable? What exactly motivates heroic characters? Even tried and true explanations like love or honor are somewhat inadequate, IMO, because many feel such emotions but very few act on them in the kind of spectacular fashion that makes heroes.

Luke Skywalker, for instance, forgives Darth Vader out of love for Anakin Skywalker. Accepts wholeheartedly as his father the man who, among almost two decades of dark deeds, personally cut down his mentor, killed his childhood best friend, tortured his closest loved ones, and chopped off his hand. Luke's in fact ready to die or worse to redeem this man. That's love, sure, but a love that's so beyond the experience of most of us that nebulous concepts like fate and destiny have to be thrown around.

Truly, I love reading the attempts of writers to deconstruct heroes. These are never entirely successful, of course, given the complexity of the psychology of heroism. Which basically requires a study of every coping method known to man, lol, and a resolution of contradictions like a man of peace being an exceptional killer. Inconsistent characterization abounds not because heroes are shallow personalities or exist only to serve the whims of the plot, but because heroes are just really hard to get a handle on.

Well. I've gone way off-topic with my possibly nonsensical ramblings. In conclusion, I hope GRRM continues writing Jon because I enjoy his take on the psychologically impenetrable heroic archetype.

edit:

Personally, I find Jon's characterization a great deal easier to understand if I keep in mind that he, like most heroic characters, is a master of compartmentalization and disassociation, repression and denial. His thoughts and emotions as expressed in his POV are not always reliable. Not because they're false or feigned, however, but because he himself sometimes doesn't recognize or can't articulate what's happening in his own head.

For example, I'm of the opinion that Jon's had a bit of a death wish since ASOS. Mostly survivor's guilt and angry frustration at his inability to do, well, anything. He can't avenge the deaths of his family or see to Winterfell's restoration because he's Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, but he can't shore up the defenses of the Wall enough to withstand the imminent ice zombie apocalypse either. He's too honorable to knowingly ditch his responsibilities or perform his duties with less than his best, but he's blind to his own importance and careless of his safety.

Like Dany and Tyrion in ADWD, I think Jon's kind of depressed. He's just more productive in his depression, lol. Probably because he's not suffering a crisis of identity with consequent indecisiveness but apathetic about whether he lives the next day or the day after, if not about what he must do each day.

This is more of a reply to the added edited part of your post.

I don't think Jon has a death wish. He may be a bit bummed with everything that has happened, but who wouldn't be? As far as Jon and the battle against the Others, I think Jon knows its a long shot to stop them, but I believe he still knows there is a chance. I mean if Jon truly thought it was hopeless, and if Jon truly had a death wish, then he would take the fight to the Others, or something. Jon wouldn't have cared to get the loan from the Iron Bank, if he truly thought there was no chance against the Others. The reason why Jon got the loan is because he believes they will survive long enough to run out of food. Getting a loan to feed everybody at the Wall for the duration of winter, is not the actions of someone who thinks fighting the Others is hopeless. Hell I am a reader, and as a reader I get more info than Jon probably, about the Others, and I don't think it's a hopeless fight.

As far as Jon not caring about his personal safety, I do and don't agree with you there. Naturally someone as young as Jon is not going to be as contentious about his safety, in comparison to an older person, that's just a youthful folly. At the same time though, Jon does walk around with at least two bodyguards through out most of ADwD. Jon also is a very skilled swordsman capapable of defending himself, and for the most part he is always armed. Ghost is usually not to far from Jon, so really with those things considered, what more should Jon have done? I mean if somebody wants Jon dead, and if they are able to get past all that, there is not much else Jon could do.

Unfortunately GRRM created a perfect storm, for when Jon was stabbed. What I mean is, Jon had a perfectly logical explanation for locking up Ghost, so I don't blame him for that. When Jon was stabbed, it was in the middle of the yard, surrounded by Brothers, and probably some Wildlings and Queensmen. Jon had two guards with him when he left the Shield Hall, Leathers was also right there, and a bunch of Wildlings that just pledged their swords to Jon were around the corner. None of that prevented Jon from being stabbed though, and I can't blame Jon for not thinking he would be stabbed in the middle of the yard, full of people. So I think Jon did as much as was reasonable, it just was not enough. Like I said, GRRM created a perfect storm for Jon to get stabbed, he created a reason for Jon to logically leave Ghost locked up. This way Jon doesn't look like an idiot, mean while everything else makes sense, and it's all very believable.

[Stark Wolf]

Jon is one of my favorite charactors so I hope he is not dead only badly wounded. I hope he has a large role to play in the future of Westeros. Jon & Dany are on parallel courses both young yet learning from mistakes how to rule and care for people under them. It will take both of them as a joint force along with the dragons to defeat the White Walkers. This is how I see Jon's future but all that feally matters is how GRRM writes his future.

[The Crannogman]

Jon is one of my favorite charactors so I hope he is not dead only badly wounded. I hope he has a large role to play in the future of Westeros. Jon & Dany are on parallel courses both young yet learning from mistakes how to rule and care for people under them. It will take both of them as a joint force along with the dragons to defeat the White Walkers. This is how I see Jon's future but all that feally matters is how GRRM writes his future.

Agreed. The thought of an unJon or any other magical resurrection makes me sick. I hope he lives through his wounds or dies from them (sad as that may be). I really have the feeling that he's going to be in a coma and warg into Ghost during his unconsciousness, kind of like when Bran "fell"

[Yeade]

Ghost714, do you remember the following passage from ASOS?

[Jon's] mouth twisted... "All my dreams are of the crypts, of the stone kings on their thrones. Sometimes I hear Robb's voice and my father's, as if they were at a feast. But there's a wall between us, and I know that no place has been set for me."

The living have no place at the feasts of the dead.

It tore the heart from Sam to hold his silence then.

Bran's not dead, Jon

, he wanted to say.

Jon's similar to Theon in many ways. He is not there. Not for Ned, for Robb, Bran and Rickon, Sansa and Arya. This survivor's guilt is compounded by the fact that Jon still desires Winterfell, to restore it to its former glory and prove himself a true Stark (again, like Theon). Hence his ADWD dream of taking Robb's head off with Longclaw and, IIRC, declaring himself Lord of Winterfell. However, as Jon's a bastard and bound to his duty to the NW, these issues can only be stuffed away in some corner of his head to haunt his dreams.

(Which, incidentally, is one reason why I hope Robb's will names Jon heir and that Jon learns of it, even if he never accepts the title of King in the North. Jon and Robb--Catelyn, too, actually--have unfinished business. Just like Ned and Jon, in fact, with regards to R+L=J.)

Now, I'm not arguing that Jon's recklessly suicidal or unable to plan for the future. Whatever death wish he has, it's subconscious and passive. He will honor his responsibilities as Lord Commander and do so well, which includes actions for the long term like brokering peace with the wildlings and a loan from the Iron Bank. He just doesn't really care one way or the other about whether he, personally, lives.

For instance, in ASOS, though Jon realizes Janos Slynt's set to be elected Lord Commander, at which point his life's forfeit as a deserter and oathbreaker, he not only refuses Stannis's offer of Winterfell but does pretty much nothing to prove his innocence to the NW officers or otherwise defend himself from his accusers. He's resigned to his fate, IMO, even relieved after his epiphany about Ghost's connection to the old gods that he's no longer in conflict, tempted to take Stannis's deal. In ADWD, Jon feels dead as per his musings that food being tasteless unless he's Ghost means his direwolf's more alive than him. His existing depression's worsened by the isolation and frustrations of his position. By the end of the novel, he has no qualms about pursuing two separate military campaigns, Hardhome and Winterfell, with highish probabilities of failure, maybe even basing strategy on his death in the latter, totally and a bit inexplicably blind to how the mishmash of alliances on the Wall falls apart without him.

The decisions to march on Hardhome and Winterfell are the result of, IMO, sound reasoning, too. I'm definitely not one to say Jon's acting crazy here considering the sheer amount of time and effort I've spent since July, lol, rationalizing both ventures as the best options available to Jon given the circumstances. However, Jon strikes me as the type who's capable of cold calculation in political and military affairs no matter how messed up his personal feelings are. What concerns me, so far as Jon's psychological state goes, is how little emotion the prospect of his own death raises in him. Practically none at all, really. This is what I meant by careless of his safety, BTW, not whether Jon has bodyguards and so on.

At any rate, I freely admit this is simply an interpretation of Jon's character I like. May seem a crackpot theory but, as I said before, Jon's sometimes an unreliable narrator when it comes to his own mind. And death wishes of various intensities are not uncommon to his archetype. It's an explanation for why heroes routinely propose feats of death-defying derring-do that barely miss the mark on being suicidal folly because nobody has any better ideas and they truly are extremely proficient, usually at killing.

[Ghost714]

Ghost714, do you remember the following passage from ASOS?

[Jon's] mouth twisted... "All my dreams are of the crypts, of the stone kings on their thrones. Sometimes I hear Robb's voice and my father's, as if they were at a feast. But there's a wall between us, and I know that no place has been set for me."

The living have no place at the feasts of the dead.

It tore the heart from Sam to hold his silence then.

Bran's not dead, Jon

, he wanted to say.

Jon's similar to Theon in many ways. He is not there. Not for Ned, for Robb, Bran and Rickon, Sansa and Arya. This survivor's guilt is compounded by the fact that Jon still desires Winterfell, to restore it to its former glory and prove himself a true Stark (again, like Theon). Hence his ADWD dream of taking Robb's head off with Longclaw and, IIRC, declaring himself Lord of Winterfell. However, as Jon's a bastard and bound to his duty to the NW, these issues can only be stuffed away in some corner of his head to haunt his dreams.

(Which, incidentally, is one reason why I hope Robb's will names Jon heir and that Jon learns of it, even if he never accepts the title of King in the North. Jon and Robb--Catelyn, too, actually--have unfinished business. Just like Ned and Jon, in fact, with regards to R+L=J.)

Now, I'm not arguing that Jon's recklessly suicidal or unable to plan for the future. Whatever death wish he has, it's subconscious and passive. He will honor his responsibilities as Lord Commander and do so well, which includes actions for the long term like brokering peace with the wildlings and a loan from the Iron Bank. He just doesn't really care one way or the other about whether he, personally, lives.

For instance, in ASOS, though Jon realizes Janos Slynt's set to be elected Lord Commander, at which point his life's forfeit as a deserter and oathbreaker, he not only refuses Stannis's offer of Winterfell but does pretty much nothing to prove his innocence to the NW officers or otherwise defend himself from his accusers. He's resigned to his fate, IMO, even relieved after his epiphany about Ghost's connection to the old gods that he's no longer in conflict, tempted to take Stannis's deal. In ADWD, Jon feels dead as per his musings that food being tasteless unless he's Ghost means his direwolf's more alive than him. His existing depression's worsened by the isolation and frustrations of his position. By the end of the novel, he has no qualms about pursuing two separate military campaigns, Hardhome and Winterfell, with highish probabilities of failure, maybe even basing strategy on his death in the latter, totally and a bit inexplicably blind to how the mishmash of alliances on the Wall falls apart without him.

The decisions to march on Hardhome and Winterfell are the result of, IMO, sound reasoning, too. I'm definitely not one to say Jon's acting crazy here considering the sheer amount of time and effort I've spent since July, lol, rationalizing both ventures as the best options available to Jon given the circumstances. However, Jon strikes me as the type who's capable of cold calculation in political and military affairs no matter how messed up his personal feelings are. What concerns me, so far as Jon's psychological state goes, is how little emotion the prospect of his own death raises in him. Practically none at all, really. This is what I meant by careless of his safety, BTW, not whether Jon has bodyguards and so on.

At any rate, I freely admit this is simply an interpretation of Jon's character I like. May seem a crackpot theory but, as I said before, Jon's sometimes an unreliable narrator when it comes to his own mind. And death wishes of various intensities are not uncommon to his archetype. It's an explanation for why heroes routinely propose feats of death-defying derring-do that barely miss the mark on being suicidal folly because nobody has any better ideas and they truly are extremely proficient, usually at killing.

I do remember Jon's dreams, and I do understand that Jon is depressed. What I don't really understand, and I mean this in the most non rude way possible, but what is your point in pointing this out? Seriously not trying to sound rude at all, but what are you saying all that means?

When it comes to Hardhome and then Winterfell, both are very risky, and both could cost Jon his life. Yet Jon could not ask anybody to risk going to Hardhome, if he would not go himself. So even though it's risky, I don't think it means Jon has a death wish or anything, because Jon believed it was a neccisary risk. He wanted to save the surviving Free Folk, because they were people too, and he didn't want them to become Wights. Jon also probably felt like it was less risky for him to personally go, because he has advantages others do not have. This time around, unlike with Mormonts Ranging, Jon knows to have everyone armed with dragonglass. Jon also has Ghost which is a huge advantage when going North of the Wall, that nobody else has, and Jon has his Valyrian Steel sword Longclaw, which at best will kill the Others, and not shatter against their crystal swords, and at the very least, it will still be a lighter sharper sword, good at hacking up Wights. So when you think about it, Jon's probably the best qualified person to go to Hardhome, and I believe that's how he saw it too.

Then there is fighting Ramsey at Winterfell. Jon doesn't ask the Nights Watch to go, in case what he was doing is oathbreaking. That doesn't mean it was, but if it was, Jon didn't want to ask his Brothers to do it.

Jon also has an advantage here, so it is really not as crazy as one might think. Jon was going to be leading an army of Wildlings, mind you these are winters people, they completely pioneered the way of life for winter. So not only would the amount of fighters Jon has be a surprise to Ramsey, but how fast they could get to Winterfell would be a complete surprise to Ramsey. If anybody can travel fast through a snow storm, it would be Jon and his army of Wildlings. So I am sure Jon was planning to catch Ramsey off guard. Also, Jon is operating under the belief that Stannis was defeated in seven days of battle, so even if Ramsey won, Jon would still know that Stannis had to have killed a large part of Ramsey's army. So Jon would know that Ramsey is not at full strength, that plus Jon getting to Winterfell faster than anyone would expect, with four or five times as many men as Ramsey would expect, and it's not such a crazy plan anymore.

And if anybody knows how to take Winterfell, it would be Jon. His army would be full of Raiders that have climbed the Wall a score of times, so Jon might have planned on having them scale the walls of Winterfell, in which case his army would be very good at that.

So I really don't think these two missions are all that crazy for Jon in particular. I am not saying he is not depressed at all, but going to kill Ramsey would be better than Prozac, for depression.

I personally think Jon will be contacted by Bran, while he is in Ghost, after he got stabbed, and that is when Jon will learn about Bran and Rickon being alive. He could possibly learn the truth about Arya to. So I don't think Jon will be as depressed in the future.

[The Mother of The Others]

no (to the question)

[Ghost714]

Hell no! (to the question)

[Yeade]

Ghost714, the two of us are kind of hilariously off-topic, aren't we? At any rate, in answer to your question, I wrote what I did for two reasons: 1) You replied to my original post saying that you don't see Jon having a death wish of any sort, so I wanted to try and explain why I came to such a conclusion based on the text. 2) I just enjoy expounding on Jon's characterization in general, lol.

There isn't really a thread for this that doesn't turn quickly to arguments about whether Jon's storyline is cliched or implausible, and I've taken part in enough of those discussions that I know it's all a matter of perspective. I feel that Jon's often given short shrift in terms of character analysis because he fits the heroic archetype. Many dismiss heroes as uninteresting cardboard personalities because they do what's expected of them by the readers. I disagree, of course, and believe the psychology of heroism is quite complex. It is in fact impenetrably so, IMO, given that writers of fiction are not the only ones who've tried and mostly failed over the centuries to consistently identify what factors are involved in making a man into, say, Abraham Lincoln. Understanding the motivations of heroic characters is a key part in understanding greatness. Which I think is an issue every author of an epic story has to struggle with.

You don't gotta defend Jon's decisions to march on Hardhome or Winterfell to me. Really! If you search my posting history, you'll notice that I'm one of the more outspoken or at least long-winded, lol, supporters of both campaigns. Again, I'm not arguing that either of these is suicide. Or that Jon chooses such courses of action out of a desire to die. Like I said before, one of Jon's talents is the ability to disassociate his personal feelings from his strategic assessment of a situation. Case in point, his betrayal of Ygritte.

Also, I repeat, whatever death wish I think Jon has, it's passive. He doesn't seek death, but he won't mind much if it comes to him while he's doing his duty. I mean, this kind of stuff is a common concern for people suffering from depression. Which you admit and I concur that Jon is.

Regarding whether Jon will recover from his depression in the future, I say yes... and no. :laugh:

I, too, hope Jon has the satisfaction of killing Ramsay Bolton. I expect Stannis to be victorious in the North and a degree of stability to be restored to the region or, IMO, everything above the Neck is in real danger of being wiped out by the ice zombie apocalypse when it inevitably descends upon Westeros. However, the retaking of Winterfell's bittersweet for Jon as he'll find out about the Arya deception. Even being in contact with Bran is a sadness considering that he may never leave that cave.

That said, I tend to believe Jon's spirits will be lifted in reuniting with Rickon when Davos arrives at the Wall from Skagos, hearing of and from Sansa in the Vale, and finally receiving Robb's will naming him heir, proof of his late brother's esteem in him. Problem is, I also think Jon's difficulties vis-a-vis the Others and Stannis (plus Melisandre) will increase exponentially. Not to mention, assuming R+L=J, Jon's due for a major identity crisis. And just when he's at last comfortable being Ned Stark's bastard! Jon's my pick to be chained to the Iron Throne, as well, where he'll be a bit miserable and probably guilty.

So, many reasons to be happy and unhappy both. It's complicated. Which is the way I like it. ^_^

[W.A.Wilson]

There is no question whatsoever that Jon is not dead. Almost every chapter of his in Dance features at least a few sentences about how close Jon and Ghost have become. Jon wonders multiple times what it would be like to be inside Ghost and thinks about his own death. On re-read this stuff jumps right out. That, mixed with the prologue chapter... There isn't a chance in the world Jon is dead.

[genegirl]

I just go with the flow, I do love the books, I just wait to see what GRRM writes. Personally I don't want Jon to die a useless death. I do remember GRRM commenting about Jon and it left me thinking there is more to Jon's story.

[Night Gathers]

I like Jon and don't want him to die, I don't want him to be resurrected either, it gets old like many of you already said.

I do however believe that his wounds weren't lethal. Yes, 3 or 4 stabs, but we still know that a lot of people witnessed his death, even though the majority of them were Jon's brothers I still believe Grenn, Pyp, Satin and Edd would do their best to save him. Then again, I don't remember where Tormund Giantsbane was during the attack, but I have a feeling he liked Jon enough to defend him from incoming attacks and get him to safety, some wildlings would join in as well.

If they got him to safety and a few willing stewards and perhaps Melisandre tried to heal his wounds as best they could without using dark magic, Jon could survive without having to be resurrected. I also believe there are some serious healers among the wildlings and they could be of help as well.

I have a theory, though. If he survives, and his wounds get healed, he might have been dead for a few seconds from blood loss. I'm guessing his soul connected with Ghost during that time and when he wakes up he's a lot closer to Ghost than before. That may be the thing that triggers his warging abilities when he wakes up, even if the theory sounds far fetched.

[A Song of Ice and Fire]

It would be a shame for Jon Snow to die when he has basically achieved nothing. Martin does kill people off suddenly but Jon should be a different case. With Jon Snows major plot being beyond the north and with the movement of the White Walkers coming to fruition, it would be pointless for his character to die at this point.

Robb Stark dying, I can understand since he was not a major POV character in the first place. Catelyn died but was resurrected back to life (which i thought was very corny) and still lives on. Eddard's death was necessary to trigger the War of Five Kings. Snow not yet.

[Miatron]

In all honesty Jon cant die! Bc the whole series is about the realm. Out of all the mens watch at the wall he is the only one who with enough bals and wits about what is really going on. He is the only one keeping the peace between the wildlings and the rest pf the crows and stannis men. His brothers are ut numbered and are not rational enough to understand that the need the wildlings to survive whats coming. The rest of the realm is to busy has no clue about the wall and the ones that do ignore it. plus getting stabbed by marsh who is a hating ass Biatch is no way to die. If jon dies then martin has to come up with anouther character at the wall to fit the role, but i dont see anybody there that can do it. its a domino effect that will destroy the whole realm. Wildlings kill off the crows winter comes, not enough men to defend the wall from rhe wights and white walkers and whatever other creatures, the north with out notice starts to become destroyed as all the men that die start to rise as dead walkers. since dany has no control of the dragons yet westeros is lost. Jon cant die , he can rise again. though. the story is about the realm, jon is the only one who is actually trying to protect it, everybody else is to worried about personal issues. IF JON DIES THE REALM DIES!!!! unless dany takes controll of the dragons quick.