Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 What understanding though? The Starks have been completely in the right with the possible exception of the short time Catelyn had Tyrion arrested. What can the Lannisters possibly offer in the way of an appropriate apology? Incidentally, the reason I can’t dismiss Tyrion remaining married to Sansa out of hand is because Tyrion is easily the character where “anything is possible” most applies. He’s clearly the author’s favorite character and I do imagine he’ll find a soft landing for him.Still, I’m sticking with my theory that he and Jorah end up on the Wall as its two new leaders.What understanding though? The Starks have been completely in the right with the possible exception of the short time Catelyn had Tyrion arrested. What can the Lannisters possibly offer in the way of an appropriate apology? Incidentally, the reason I can’t dismiss Tyrion remaining married to Sansa out of hand is because Tyrion is easily the character where “anything is possible” most applies. He’s clearly the author’s favorite character and I do imagine he’ll find a soft landing for him.Still, I’m sticking with my theory that he and Jorah end up on the Wall as its two new leaders.The understanding I am talking about is putting aside past hatreds for the sake of future peace, cooperation and coexistance rather than vengeance and its consequences.As for Tyrion he is not one to defend the actions of Cersei or Tywin and Sansa seems as a person that is able to overcome grudges and see the good in people and the potential for a cooperation in the face of new threats including the Others or just for the sake of escaping past grudges and thoughts of retribution in favor of the realm healing from its wounds.Edit: I wonder if Lady Stoneheart can play a role in this theory of mine where Tyrion ends up as the one in control of the Rock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElizaMartell Posted February 9, 2012 Author Share Posted February 9, 2012 I agree a marriage between them would be something I wouldn't like but I wouldn't mind a reconciliation between Lannister and Stark that comes not from marriage but from Sansa and Tyrion finding common understanding. Assuming that Tyrion wins Castelly Rock and is the remaining powerful Lannister. Though there is bad blood between their houses Tyrion and Sansa might be the two people of those factions who can find common understanding.I get 'Understanding'. What I am saying is that no marriage is going to fix the mess between them. No matter how understanding Sansa is, I doubt she wants to be a Lannister. Heck, she doesn't ever want to marry again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Who would annihilate the Lannisters though? Is there a strong enough army after all the wars to do that?- The North, more than twice the Lannisters manpower if united- The Vale, two to three times the Lannisters manpower- Dorne, two to three times the Lannisters manpower- The Golden Company, about the same size but better quality and likely to swell in numbers- The Sparrows, hard to quantify- The Riverlands, hard to quantify but probably about the Lannisters manpower if united- Dany, dragons and all- Greyjoy, at least the same manpower even without the Iron Fleet- The Tyrells, if Cersei pulls some crazy shit like killing Marg, at least four times the Lannister manpowerOr any alliance between these. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
another bastard Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 I can understand guerrilla warfare but does anyone really have the energy to fight them in snowstorms in winter after a war that ruined vast areas of the kingdom? That's the key question here.Revenge can be potent. The undead never sleep, and the Blackfish didn't disappear for nothing. IIRC the BWB even has an agent - Tom O' Sevens - inside Riverrun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 I get 'Understanding'. What I am saying is that no marriage is going to fix the mess between them. No matter how understanding Sansa is, I doubt she wants to be a Lannister. Heck, she doesn't ever want to marry again.I agreed with you, I don't see her marrying him and I don't have a problem with her also not wanting to marry him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mother of The Others Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 to rephrase the title,Is a reigning champ still a contender for her own title? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faint Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 - The North, more than twice the Lannisters manpower if unitedThey have slightly less than Lannister manpower when united, and that was before the losses they suffered recenently. They can in no way, shape or form come up with an army right now to rival the Lannisters.- The Vale, two to three times the Lannisters manpowerThe Vale has roughly 40,000 men, the Lannisters approach 60,000.- Dorne, two to three times the Lannisters manpowerFrom what GRRM has indicated, Dorne has, at best, half the Lannister strength in arms.- The Riverlands, hard to quantify but probably about the Lannisters manpower if unitedAbout 15,000 less, before the war, now greatly diminished.- Greyjoy, at least the same manpower even without the Iron FleetNot even close. Maybe one-third the Lannister strength. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
another bastard Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 The understanding I am talking about is putting aside past hatreds for the sake of future peace, cooperation and coexistance rather than vengeance and its consequences.As for Tyrion he is not one to defend the actions of Cersei or Tywin and Sansa seems as a person that is able to overcome grudges and see the good in people and the potential for a cooperation in the face of new threats including the Others or just for the sake of escaping past grudges and thoughts of retribution in favor of the realm healing from its wounds.I can see the political logic but ... ewww. Wait another generation, and let the parties marry freely at an appropriate age. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexia Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Tyrion himself said to Sansa, in ACOK, that no marriage would ever undo the hate between Stark and Lannister. I feel pretty secure in my belief that this marriage is not destined for permanence. I have many theories but this is one of the few that I actually do feel quite secure in.Especially after reading what ADWD did to Tyrion. Any lingering doubts I had were washed away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 I can see the political logic but ... ewww. Wait another generation, and let the parties marry freely at an appropriate age.I am not sure what is responsible for this continuing misunderstanding. I have never been in favor of Sansa marrying Tyrion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElizaMartell Posted February 9, 2012 Author Share Posted February 9, 2012 Tyrion himself said to Sansa, in ACOK, that no marriage would ever undo the hate between Stark and Lannister. I feel pretty secure in my belief that this marriage is not destined for permanence. I have many theories but this is one of the few that I actually do feel quite secure in.Especially after reading what ADWD did to Tyrion. Any lingering doubts I had were washed away.Yeah. I am not to sure what may happen with the Starks and the Lannisters in 100 years time but I doubt they'd all be happy chappy due to a marriage. The Breckens and Blackwoods still fight despite inter-marriages.How many Lannister arms are set up and ready if things get heated? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexia Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Yeah. I am not to sure what may happen with the Starks and the Lannisters in 100 years time but I doubt they'd all be happy chappy due to a marriage. The Breckens and Blackwoods still fight despite inter-marriages.How many Lannister arms are set up and ready if things get heated?The North Remembers.Ominous words, that, and Sansa had every intention of teaching her children to hate Lannisters. She hates Lannisters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faint Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 The majority of Lannister forces are currently camped stretched out across the Riverlands. I've been theorizing that Cersei is going to call them back to King's Landing after what happened to Kevan and with the Tyrell forces emptying to the Stormlands and to deal with the Ironborn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 They have slightly less than Lannister manpower when united, and that was before the losses they suffered recenently. They can in no way, shape or form come up with an army right now to rival the Lannisters.The Vale has roughly 40,000 men, the Lannisters approach 60,000.From what GRRM has indicated, Dorne has, at best, half the Lannister strength in arms.About 15,000 less, before the war, now greatly diminished.Not even close. Maybe one-third the Lannister strength.Your numbers would hold water before the War of the Five Kings. But the Young Wolf cost them 35,000 men and the Battle of Blackwater Bay, Dragonstone and the guerrilla war in the Riverlands some odd-thousands more. The Lannisters are somewhere about 15,000 men left. That is about as many as Lord Manderley alone could field! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnionAhaiReborn Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Your numbers would hold water before the War of the Five Kings. But the Young Wolf cost them 35,000 men and the Battle of Blackwater Bay, Dragonstone and the guerrilla war in the Riverlands some odd-thousands more. The Lannisters are somewhere about 15,000 men left. That is about as many as Lord Manderley alone could field!Where are you getting your numbers? I don't think Manderly can field 15,000 men.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WenchofTarth Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Sure still in the game but teetering, Ceresi will only be able to maintain any kind of authority on Tyrell sufference. Not sure how long it will last with them opposing them eventually I'm sure, along with Dany and Aegon coming, and the other "kingdoms" highly unreliable if not outright enemies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lummel Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 I suppose the question (s) is/are come TWOW is Jaime going to be in a position to provide leadership to house lannister, and if yes how is he going to react to the Aegon news?Devan seemed happy to differ to Jaime in AFFC, Genna seemed to have her doubts but certainly came across as very family conscious and presumably unlikely to back somebody else. So if Jaime is still on the scene I think he can count on the support of the other Lannisters. Seeing as Jaime probably was present when the bodies of Aegon and Rhaenys were presented to King Bob he doubtless would have strong opinions about 'Aegon'.On the other hand given ADWD it's quite likely that Jaime isn't going to be on hand to provide leadership at the beginning of TWOW.With Varys active in Kings Landing and Aegon and Co coming up the coast we could see Tommen either dead or fleeing to Casterly Rock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexia Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Another issue is the hostages that were taken from the riverlords to prevent another rebellion. If Jaime turns up dead (as I think he will) it seems quite likely that Cersei will have all the hostages killed in retribution. Which would completely end any hold they have on the riverlords, and might result in the riverlands rising for Aegon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faint Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Your numbers would hold water before the War of the Five Kings. But the Young Wolf cost them 35,000 men and the Battle of Blackwater Bay, Dragonstone and the guerrilla war in the Riverlands some odd-thousands more. The Lannisters are somewhere about 15,000 men left. That is about as many as Lord Manderley alone could field!I think it's fair to estimate the Lannisters probably lost something approaching 15,000 to 20,000 men but that would still easily double what ever the North has left -- especially after current circumstances with respect to the siege of Winterfell and winter in general. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faint Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Another issue is the hostages that were taken from the riverlords to prevent another rebellion. If Jaime turns up dead (as I think he will) it seems quite likely that Cersei will have all the hostages killed in retribution. Which would completely end any hold they have on the riverlords, and might result in the riverlands rising for Aegon.I can't believe you still think this. It goes against everything GRRM has ever written and how he's written it. Moreover, why wouldn't Catelyn simply use Jaime to get the hostages back while holding Brienne hostage? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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