Stop Blaming Edmure!

[Ramsay Gimp]

The quote is "guard his rear" if that affects anything since we seem to be arguing exact wording now. However, regardless of this, all Robb had to say was "Hold Riverrun and ensure Tywin pursues us. We have a surprise for him," and all would be well in the world. But no, he says "Hold Riverrun" and possibly says "guard my rear." It doesn't take a lengthy discussion to get the plan across, it takes a few more words. This is a miscommunication on Robb's part. Edmure did well with the assigned task, it's not his fault Robb didn't assign him the right task.

This whole thing reminds me of an XKCD comic.

http://xkcd.com/1028/

There's mouseover text for that comic that pertains to this discussion even more. "Anyone who says that they're great at communicating but 'people are just bad at listening' is confused about how communication works."

Exactly. The fact that there was room for interpretation is a sign it wasn't communicated clearly. If it was paramount that Tywin crossed, Robb should have told Edmure that. It's not exactly a small detail

Where do you get that Edmure is Brynden's liege lord? The Blackfish was in service to the Vale and then joined up with Robb as head of his scouts , I do not remember him ever swearing his service to Riverrun.

Um, from the fact that he is a Tully? Jaime calls Edmure his Liege Lord to Brynden's face in AFFC, and the Blackfish does not refute him

[Blackfish Tully]

Exactly. The fact that there was room for interpretation is a sign it wasn't communicated clearly. If it was paramount that Tywin crossed, Robb should have told Edmure that. It's not exactly a small detail

Um, from the fact that he is a Tully? Jaime calls Edmure his Liege Lord to Brynden's face in AFFC, and the Blackfish does not refute him

The fact that he is Tully has nothing to do with it , is Gregor the Hounds Liege Lord because they both are Cleganes? Brynden swore his service to the King in the North and at the time he and Robb yelled at Edmure he was not in Edmure's service. After Robb was killed everything was up in the air and Jamie was trying to use Edmure to blackmail The Blackfish so we need to take what he said with a grain of salt.

[Boromir-Bloodstorm]

Simply allowing Tywin to cross the fords and attack the numerically inferior King Robb would make no sense on Edmure's part. Expecting him to intuitively know is ridiculous, and he didn't deserve the guilt trip Robb and Brynden put him through

Definately agree. I was annoyed with Robb about this. It was one of the things that made me stop liking him.

Edmure was told to hold his castle. What better way to hold it than by ensuring the enemy never even cross the river so they can attack it in the first place? Failing to share his plans with Edmure, the blame for the failuire lies entirely on Robb.

[Boromir-Bloodstorm]

Ned Stark reflects that his brother in law has, "more valor than common sense (or something like that.)" And when Ned Stark thinks that someone is overfull of honor/ moral valor but short on common sense...it can't be good.

But Ned was the one with more honor than common sense. He got manipulated by Littlefinger like a puppet, and he had no idea whatsoever what he was dealing with when taking on Cersei. He lost his head because of it, left his daughters in peril and forced his son into a difficult and dangerous war.

If Ned had common sense, he would never have confronted Cersei. He did that because of his honor. He would also have been able to realize Littlefinger was leading him somewhere, which would have led to the question, "Where?" Which is something worth knowing. He would have told Robert of what Cersei did, deathbed or no, and he would have done it with Pycelle, Barristan, Littlefinger and Renly all in presence. But he did none of this, because he is an honorable fool.

[UnbentFury]

Seriously, the whole "Robb would have won if Edmure hadn't stopped Tywin" thing has got to stop. I don't have time to spell out my entire reasoning, but I'll leave you with this

-Did Edmure send back Theon Greyjoy with no strings attached, while the Northern coastline was undefended?

-Did Edmure release Jaime Lannister?

-Did Edmure leave Winterfell undefended, and then sack the castle?

-Did Edmure marry Jeyne Westerling?

Simply allowing Tywin to cross the fords and attack the numerically inferior King Robb would make no sense on Edmure's part. Expecting him to intuitively know is ridiculous, and he didn't deserve the guilt trip Robb and Brynden put him through

:agree: :agree: :agree: :agree: :agree: :agree: :agree: :agree: :agree: :agree:

Just read this chapter.

THESE WERE MY EXACT FUCKING THOUGHTS.

All this talk about Edmure and Karstark messing things up and dishonoring him when it was really his own mistakes that dishonored Robb really pissed me off and made me wanna snatch somebody.

[rohit39]

All said and done, any of Robb's mistakes or Edmure's mistakes didn't matter as much as Catelyn's mistake. With one decision, of sending Jaime with Brienne in the hope of a prisoner exchange, handed over the advantage to the Lannisters. If Jaime was still captive, RW would have never happened.

It is true that even without RW they would be facing an uphill struggle, with the iron men at the north and Lannisters south. But that is a better deal than having to suffer RW. Its all Catelyn. Blame that hoe.

[Minstral]

Exactly. The fact that there was room for interpretation is a sign it wasn't communicated clearly. If it was paramount that Tywin crossed, Robb should have told Edmure that. It's not exactly a small detail

Robb has many flaws with his strategy's.... but it's hard to say that Edmure Tully is blameless in this. While trying to hold off Tywin is one thing, it is entirely another to order Roose Bolton to seize Harrenhal and Tallhart to take his garrison force from the Twins and join Bolton. Yes miscommunication is the fault of Robb and the Blackfish and Edmure's defense at the fords is an understandable action. However, attempting to orchestrate Tywin's downfall is complerly absent from his orders of "Hold Riverrun".

[Jaime's Wench]

I am very much liking this thread!

Robb has many flaws with his strategy's.... but it's hard to say that Edmure Tully is blameless in this. While trying to hold off Tywin is one thing, it is entirely another to order Roose Bolton to seize Harrenhal and Tallhart to take his garrison force from the Twins and join Bolton. Yes miscommunication is the fault of Robb and the Blackfish and Edmure's defense at the fords is an understandable action. However, attempting to orchestrate Tywin's downfall is complerly absent from his orders of "Hold Riverrun".

The fact Edmure is able to think for himself and (only moderatly) defy orders is why I like the character. Bolton was a northman, which meant he should be trustworthy to Robb's cause, no less than Theon... more so than the Freys who had a reputation for backstabbing. At the end of the day, the Stark cause was never going to win by playing safe or playing fair. Edmure knew this, and felt he needed to do something about it. A lot of his 'mistakes' are circumstantial because he was not let in on the true plan and because the Red Wedding took place before anything could come to fruition.

[Santa]

I do repeat this as often as necessary... Please consult with an army member if you want to make a founded judgement on this.

Command center (cc) was robb and the blackfish. Edmure was a high ranking officer given a task.

A high ranking officer is not allowed to move half the army arround without informing cc, because cc is responsible to win the war with its strategies whereas officers usually only thibk about small tactics and winning a battle.

Cc has to rely on its troops beeing on those positions it commanded them to be.

Edmure would Never be allowed to move bolton, to call his banners again, or to remove the troops from the twins without informing Cc. Not informing cc is so unthinkable, i cant even imagine the punishment for that.

He had riders to hunt after robb and inform him. Even if his riders and messages get intercepted, no harm done if tywin gets that intel.

Cc was in the field, and suddenly saw the opportunity to trap tywin. They could no longer inform edmure of their plans, because if those info gets lost, tywin could not be trapped.

He made no mistake on not informing edmure. Cc doesnt have to inform edmure of its decisions, and it would have been a mistake risking informing him.

Robb made no mistake by relying on his troops to be where he left them, especially at the twins

Edmure acted during the whole war like someone who has mo clue about commanding, and was very ill prepared by his father for leading any troops.

[Minstral]

I am very much liking this thread!

The fact Edmure is able to think for himself and (only moderatly) defy orders is why I like the character. Bolton was a northman, which meant he should be trustworthy to Robb's cause, no less than Theon... more so than the Freys who had a reputation for backstabbing. At the end of the day, the Stark cause was never going to win by playing safe or playing fair. Edmure knew this, and felt he needed to do something about it. A lot of his 'mistakes' are circumstantial because he was not let in on the true plan and because the Red Wedding took place before anything could come to fruition.

So by taking initiative his action can be forgivable, and thus Edmure can be cast in a more favorable light. That about right? I can assume that this means that Robb and the Blackfish need to be condemned, but Edmure needs the praise because he had a good understanding of the situation. It will without a doubt do his father proud (I am being sarcastic, but not in an insulting way. Its just how I am). The truth is that I don't defend Robb. I just feel that there is a need to condem all party's so that they can accept the truth, which is they all equally shot themselves in the foot.

It is funny that you mention Bolton supposedly being more trustworthy because he is a Northman. Mostly because Edmure had no business ordering him to do anything. He was heir to the Riverlands and ruled when his father became infirm. He can expect to hold authority over the river lords, but not the lords from the North. They are the direct bannermen to the king that he proclaimed for, therefore he has no authority over men like Bolton or Tallhart. Even so he instructs them to take Harrenhal in the name of the King. Moreover, there is a hint that he lies to Bolton that Robb ordered the castle taken. When Catlynne references Bolton's letter, it goes along the lines as stating 'it will be a tough fight, but if his grace wishes the castle he will have it even if I must kill every living thing within'.

[jblair]

I do repeat this as often as necessary... Please consult with an army member if you want to make a founded judgement on this.

Command center (cc) was robb and the blackfish. Edmure was a high ranking officer given a task.

A high ranking officer is not allowed to move half the army arround without informing cc, because cc is responsible to win the war with its strategies whereas officers usually only thibk about small tactics and winning a battle.

Cc has to rely on its troops beeing on those positions it commanded them to be.

Edmure would Never be allowed to move bolton, to call his banners again, or to remove the troops from the twins without informing Cc. Not informing cc is so unthinkable, i cant even imagine the punishment for that.

He had riders to hunt after robb and inform him. Even if his riders and messages get intercepted, no harm done if tywin gets that intel.

Cc was in the field, and suddenly saw the opportunity to trap tywin. They could no longer inform edmure of their plans, because if those info gets lost, tywin could not be trapped.

He made no mistake on not informing edmure. Cc doesnt have to inform edmure of its decisions, and it would have been a mistake risking informing him.

Robb made no mistake by relying on his troops to be where he left them, especially at the twins

Edmure acted during the whole war like someone who has mo clue about commanding, and was very ill prepared by his father for leading any troops.

You do realize that the military organizational structure you are referencing was the result of centuries of development? Operational command used to be a wee bit different, even as recently as the Civil War.

That's like scorning medieval knights for using horses instead of tanks.

Edmure was given vague instructions, and when he saw an irresistibly ripe tactical opening that did not jeopardize his orders ("hold Riverrun"), he took advantage. Foul on Robb.

[Hear Us Roar]

I agree^ the command structure of the North/Rover army was not spelled out. Robb told few of his overall objectives and strategies and left many of his Generals to their own devices. In war you must not be vague. Also it permissible to defy the war plans sometimes because battles change in an instant, if you see an brief window in which you can inflict heavy damage on the enemy you do it. Command structure was iffy in general, but combining River and North forces must have been a nightmare.

[Minstral]

I agree^ the command structure of the North/Rover army was not spelled out. Robb told few of his overall objectives and strategies and left many of his Generals to their own devices. In war you must not be vague. Also it permissible to defy the war plans sometimes because battles change in an instant, if you see an brief window in which you can inflict heavy damage on the enemy you do it. Command structure was iffy in general, but combining River and North forces must have been a nightmare.

Then lets speak of the command structure that exists within the setting. Did Edmure have authority to instruct Bolton to take Harrenhal? Did he have the authority to remove the garrison from the Twins that was under the command of Tallhart? "Hold Riverrunn" is vague, but where in those orders is Edmure given control of lords sworn directly to Robb?

[Jaime's Wench]

I agree^ the command structure of the North/Rover army was not spelled out. Robb told few of his overall objectives and strategies and left many of his Generals to their own devices. In war you must not be vague. Also it permissible to defy the war plans sometimes because battles change in an instant, if you see an brief window in which you can inflict heavy damage on the enemy you do it. Command structure was iffy in general, but combining River and North forces must have been a nightmare.

I agree with this. It would have been very foolish of Edmure to sit in Riverrun if events had turned and Tywin was running a riot across the riverlands. He would be considered an exceptionally ineffectual Lord of the Riverlands and would have lost the support of those riverland lords who, at the end of the day, would perceive Edmure more their lord than Robb.

Then lets speak of the command structure that exists within the setting. Did Edmure have authority to instruct Bolton to take Harrenhal? Did he have the authority to remove the garrison from the Twins that was under the command of Tallhart? "Hold Riverrunn" is vague, but where in those orders is Edmure given control of lords sworn directly to Robb?

Can we really blame him for taking initiative rather than following his green and vague nephew? I think removing the garrison at the Twins was a mistake... but at the time he could not have seen how the Boltons taking Harrenhal would have been a bad idea.

[Minstral]

Can we really blame him for taking initiative rather than following his green and vague nephew? I think removing the garrison at the Twins was a mistake... but at the time he could not have seen how the Boltons taking Harrenhal would have been a bad idea.

A person can be blamed if he does something contrary to his orders. Offering battle at the Fords can be construed as following the command to hold the castle. But ordering other lords to go on the offensive is something haphazard when he does not know the overall strategy, and especially if he has not been given the authority to command these Northern lords. Moreover, if we are calling Robb a green boy then what does that make Edmure in regards to how he dealt with the initial Invasion of the Lannister invasion? A man that had fought in no real wars and was soundly defeated. Catlyn stated that before the Fords he fought in one battle and that was against Jaime, who defeated him. It is very obvious that you have a liking for the man when you think he has some grand vision and experience to offer the Stark/Tully cause.

[Jaime's Wench]

A person can be blamed if he does something contrary to his orders. Offering battle at the Fords can be construed as following the command to hold the castle. But ordering other lords to go on the offensive is something haphazard when he does not know the overall strategy, and especially if he has not been given the authority to command these Northern lords. Moreover, if we are calling Robb a green boy then what does that make Edmure in regards to how he dealt with the initial Invasion of the Lannister invasion? A man that had fought in no real wars and was soundly defeated. Catlyn stated that before the Fords he fought in one battle and that was against Jaime, who defeated him. It is very obvious that you have a liking for the man when you think he has some grand vision and experience to offer the Stark/Tully cause.

I didn't say he wasn't green himself. He did have ten years on Robb, though, which is something. I am 24 and I teach 15 year-olds. I'd have a hard time taking orders from one of them.

Plus, you can't exactly blame him for not knowing the overall strategy. Robb didn't tell him - when it was in his best reasons to do so.

[Minstral]

I didn't say he wasn't green himself. He did have ten years on Robb, though, which is something. I am 24 and I teach 15 year-olds. I'd have a hard time taking orders from one of them.

Plus, you can't exactly blame him for not knowing the overall strategy. Robb didn't tell him - when it was in his best reasons to do so.

I do not blame him for not knowing the strategy.... I can however blame him for creating one that ran contrary to the one that Robb and the Blackfish (the one who probably brought the strategy to Robb, and has a wealth of experience in war) developed when he chooses to contradict his orders.He deserves that blame because he was not given the authority to be conducting the war in the case of Harrenhal, or to subvert the authority of his king.

[Jaime's Wench]

At the end of the day, I will always sympathise Edmure over the matter because I have always struggled to follow orders. I follow them to the extent that I can get away with, without getting into trouble. It seems Edmure was doing the same. He wanted to make his mark, do his own thing, prove his worth. It's very much what I am doing with my career at the moment.

[Minstral]

At the end of the day, I will always sympathise Edmure over the matter because I have always struggled to follow orders. I follow them to the extent that I can get away with, without getting into trouble. It seems Edmure was doing the same. He wanted to make his mark, do his own thing, prove his worth. It's very much what I am doing with my career at the moment.

That's great for you. I wish you all the luck to achieve what you can with the career you have chosen. Though sympathy for the man should not come to thinking that he is more capable than he probably is. I remember you mentioning that Edmure acted with some sort of foresight that the Stark's and Tully's would not win the war while acting 'fair". Edmure acted in more of a naive way when seeking to make his fathers spirit proud of him by risking everything in a daring battle to "guard the rear" of his king. Robb and the Blackfish were preparing to ravage the Westerlands in the same way the Lannisters had cleaved the the Riverlands in half of life.

[Jaime's Wench]

That's great for you. I wish you all the luck to achieve what you can with the career you have chosen. Though sympathy for the man should not come to thinking that he is more capable than he probably is. I remember you mentioning that Edmure acted with some sort of foresight that the Stark's and Tully's would not win the war while acting 'fair". Edmure acted in more of a naive way when seeking to make his fathers spirit proud of him by risking everything in a daring battle to "guard the rear" of his king. Robb and the Blackfish were preparing to ravage the Westerlands in the same way the Lannisters had cleaved the the Riverlands in half of life.

Yes... But playing fair was never going to work? That's just common sense.

I think a lot of Edmure's ability is yet unproven. But I don't ever remember saying that he is more capable than people think he is. There's no evidence of his great capability. There's evidence that he's a compassionate lord who doesn't always take orders at face value.