Stop Blaming Edmure!

[Buried Treasure]

Edmure curriculum in military operations ends with Riverrun's rendition. Edmure will get the blame, as he was the Lord, in the eyes of the Westerosi posterity. The readers should take note that the "bamf" Brynden Tully wasn't able to impose his adamantine will on his own garrison -who supposedly idolized him - and on a man that was under the hard shock of having been held captive. Edmure got there starved and tortured, and the vaunted personality of his uncle wasn't enough to close him in a room glooming on his dark destiny, while defending without any hope their casle. In alternative, the Blackfish agreed with him the rendition, but we do not have too many info on this, because our POV was Jaime's, and he was outside of the caslte.

I'm not really sure what you are getting at here, especially with the sentence I have bolded. The Blackfish did have control of the garrison, and the siege was progressing along his schedule until Jaime arrived. Brynden's intent was to sit in Riverrun and repel attackers as long as possible until a) the Lannisters successfully assault, losing many men in the battle b ) Winter arrives and the besiegers have to leave.

Jaime managed to convince Edmure that he would achieve (a) but that the Lannisters would not pay the cost of losing men in battle because Jaime would send in only riverlanders and Freys. Then he sent Edmure in, not just to overrule Bryden as Lord Tully but also to argue for hope & survival.

I'd like to point out that in the chapter of Clash in which Catelyn reaches Renly's camp - not much time before, but before his death - she remembers of a talk with Robb, in which he explained to her that he needed battles to keep his host strong and not to suffer from disertions. Catelyn objected that marching to Harrenhal was what Tywinn organized for them, and Robb opposed that he didn't say he was marching to Harrenhal.

I didn't pick this up on my first read, but for the more attentive reader it's a nice little hint that Robb has plans that we will be hearing about later.

Later in Clash, when Catelyn comes back to Riverrun, she meets a Frey scout who tells her that Robb is in the West. ... The scout adds that Edmure was left to hold RIverrun and cover Robb's back. The scout says: "His Grace left Ser Edmure to hold Riverrun and guard his rear.”

....

That order, if it was the order given, it would be a perfectly sound one, because when it was issued, in the Westerlands there was still the forming Stafford's army: having to fight Stafford on the front and Tywin in the back would have been more difficult that fighting both of them spearately.

I'm reluctant to put too much weight onto words that have passed through several people, and the scout would not have been in the room when Robb gave his commanders orders so cannot give us a Robb quote. The general gist of what he told Catelyn is correct, in that Edmure was holding Riverrun and would have been expected to be vigilant. Edmure's understanding of this was to fight battles, and it may be that the scout was reporting Edmure's interpretation rather than whatever it was Robb actually said.

I don't believe Robb was too concerned about being fenced in by two armies: Robb's army could move faster than Tywin's, he had a head start, he made good use of scouts and outriders and he fell on Steffon very quickly - maintaining the element of suprise. He may have expected Edmure to watch for Tywin to move (like scouts, but even earlier warning) but Robb could not have expected Edmure to lead an army out from Riverrun at that point as he knew there was no army at Riverrun - the riverlords had been allowed to return to their own lands.

And we put apart those "little" points on the strategic situation. Robb marched west while sending Catelyn to talk with Renly. There were two different Baratheon, and neither of them was marching to King's Landing in that moment. Robb could imagine what they wanted, and he did it good enough to send his mother to talk to the one appearing stronger. The one to play his cards on: Renly. Not Stannis. He believed the relevant one to be Renly.

My conclusion - that is a personal conclusion - is that in Storm of Swords, Catelyn and Brynden Tully, and Robb Stark, put Edmure in the middle to force him -out of his low self esteem and need to act valiantly to "redeem" himself- to marry a Frey girl, because their alleged plan to lure Tywinn west, to let Stannis take King's Landing couldn't have been produced when Robb left Riverrun, giving his last order to Edmure.

Certainly Robb was not relying on Stannis to do anything, as Stannis was not involved in the war when Robb departed Riverrun. Cat only found out about Stannis declaring when she was with Renly & they heard the news Stannis had besieged Storms Ends. Additionally, on the timeline we can put Robb hearing about Stannis attacking KL after Tywin hearing the news - Tywin had allies in the city and Robb didn't.

That doesn't mean Edmure didn't mess up Robb's plans. Robb had prepared an ambush for Tywin and Edmure's battle prevented Tywin reaching it. Take the Baratheon's & KL out of the equation and that would have been only a temporary set-back, Tywin would have re-grouped and crossed into the West and been ambushed. As it turned out Tywin had reason to turn around the opportunity to defeat Tywin was lost.

[Ramsay Gimp]

Bump, since this is being debated in other threads

[Frey Pie]

I agree that Edmure isnt to blame. Robb and the BFs communication was terrible. However....i do think Edmure could have seen that there was a better plan. Edmure did exceedingly well to repel Tywin. However, i would expect someone who is raised to fight and lead could see letting Tywin pass was a better option. Im not blaming him, i just think there was an obviously better solution. Then again, nobody else in a castle full of soldiers and leaders saw this plan either so....

My plan would have been to let him cross after calling your banners. Dont let him over easily, but allow him over. Harry his outriders, his supply lines etc. Order Roose to join you. Thats around 20000 men now. Follow Tywin. Be the hammer to Robbs anvil

[Ramsay Gimp]

^but how was letting him pass the "better option"?

[Frey Pie]

^but how was letting him pass the "better option"?

It robbed him of the opportunity to defend KL. Without KL, Tywin becomes nothing more then a glorified rebel. KL would probably have fallen and with it the royal family. If Stannis or Renly won it Robb has a chance of survival, Tywin doesnt.

Militarily as wel it would allow the numbers to favour Edmure and Robb. Im not saying to leave him pass unscathed. Skirmish. With his mens knowledge of the land the advantage is with Edmure is any smaller encounters, ambushes etc.

Send riders to Robb when the news of Tywins advance first reaches. Inform him of your plan. Tywins up against it with Robbs 5000 hardened veterans and the combined forces of Edmure and Roose. Tywins men would be bloodied after there march, i would think to under 20000, and so definately outnumbered and with lower morale

[Ramsay Gimp]

^That's one plan. But it puts all the burden of defeating Tywin on the Northmen/Riverlords. By the time it was over, Robb's forces would be severely depleted (assuming he won - a very big assumption) and a new enemy would sit the Iron Throne -Stannis Baratheon.

My strategy would have been to let Tywin and Stannis smash each other while I rode around the Westerlands taking loot and glory. If Edmure holds Riverrun and Roose holds Harrenhall, this leaves Robb in a very good position no matter who wins at KL (assuming the Ironborn don't invade the North and the Tyrells don't declare for Joffey, which is nearly enough to doom Robb in any case)

[The Lord's Kiss]

Yeah.. Sigh.. If only Robb had married Margaery. Tho his mother was kind of accused of killing her husband at the time, or am I confusing the show with the books again. Of course Cat didn't help the chances by taking Brienne on as her protector.

[Buried Treasure]

Robb never could have given the Tyrell's what they would have wanted for alliance. They wanted Margaery to be the queen but even if a Maergaery-Robb marriage had been on the table it would have only made Margaery a queen, of what would have then been a different kingdom to the one they live in. The Tyrell's have never shown any inclination to expose themselves by claiming the Iron Throne in their own name, but that means they were only ever going to support one of the kings who was claiming the Iron Throne, otherwise they would have ended up winning in the wrong game of thrones.

[Ramsay Gimp]

Robb never could have given the Tyrell's what they would have wanted for alliance. They wanted Margaery to be the queen but even if a Maergaery-Robb marriage had been on the table it would have only made Margaery a queen, of what would have then been a different kingdom to the one they live in. The Tyrell's have never shown any inclination to expose themselves by claiming the Iron Throne in their own name, but that means they were only ever going to support one of the kings who was claiming the Iron Throne, otherwise they would have ended up winning in the wrong game of thrones.

Hmmm. Would the Reach have become part of Robb's kingdom? I think you're right - Winterfell is way too remote to rule that far south. Would the Reach become it's own Kingdom? I suppose that is possible, it's been done before, but the Tyrells have no royal claim over that area. Another possible scenario is that Margaery could have married Robb (let's ignore the Freys for a sec) on the condition that Robb supports Mace Tyrell as "King in the South". But like you said, the Tyrells don't seem interested in just taking the Throne.

So it seems you are correct that an alliance between Robb's kingdom and the Reach wasnt in the cards. The only real chance at alliance between Stark and Tyrell was blown when Ned declined to send Loras after the Mountain in AGOT

[tyrions sliced nose]

Robb is the king which means hes allowed to make Lords like Edmure feel like dogshit.

[Ramsay Gimp]

Robb is the king which means hes allowed to make Lords like Edmure feel like dogshit.

Aerys is the King which means he's allowed to burn Lords like Rickard alive

[tyrions sliced nose]

Aerys is the King which means he's allowed to burn Lords like Rickard alive

Well he did while people were watching so yes, he is allowed. Hes the king yo.

[Batman]

Sums it up well

[Blackfish Tully]

^That's one plan. But it puts all the burden of defeating Tywin on the Northmen/Riverlords. By the time it was over, Robb's forces would be severely depleted (assuming he won - a very big assumption) and a new enemy would sit the Iron Throne -Stannis Baratheon.

My strategy would have been to let Tywin and Stannis smash each other while I rode around the Westerlands taking loot and glory. If Edmure holds Riverrun and Roose holds Harrenhall, this leaves Robb in a very good position no matter who wins at KL (assuming the Ironborn don't invade the North and the Tyrells don't declare for Joffey, which is nearly enough to doom Robb in any case)

Isn't your stategy exactly what happened in the book and that did not work out so well for Robb . If Tywin is not able to save Kings Landing and crush Stannis then Roose Bolton and Walter Frey may not betray Robb and he would be better prepared to defend the north from Balon Greyjoy. Edmure should have been able to figure out that seperating Tywin from Kings Landing was the best strategy and he should be held responsible for making that mistake but the Battle of the Fords was impressive and would lead me to believe that Edmure may become a good Leader in the future if he can be freed from the Lannisters.

[Silverin]

Isn't your stategy exactly what happened in the book and that did not work out so well for Robb . If Tywin is not able to save Kings Landing and crush Stannis then Roose Bolton and Walter Frey may not betray Robb and he would be better prepared to defend the north from Balon Greyjoy. Edmure should have been able to figure out that seperating Tywin from Kings Landing was the best strategy and he should be held responsible for making that mistake but the Battle of the Fords was impressive and would lead me to believe that Edmure may become a good Leader in the future if he can be freed from the Lannisters.

It is easy to be smart after we know what happened. Ups, tywin reached KL and Joff remained the King, bad tactics.

Exept for that victory other things had to happen, like the Tyrell Lannister alliance, tyrion holding KL, I mean the LT forces arrived just in time. They arrive a little bit more and KL would belong to Stannis, they might take it back, but that would cost a lot of lives. etc etc etc....

[Hear Us Roar]

In war you have to make sure your generals know what is going on. Even if you can't tell them specifics you tell them the gist as they don't interfere with your master plan. When our underlings mess up whethere it is due to lack of communication or incompetence it is the fault of the leader.

[Frey Pie]

Hmmm. Would the Reach have become part of Robb's kingdom? I think you're right - Winterfell is way too remote to rule that far south. Would the Reach become it's own Kingdom? I suppose that is possible, it's been done before, but the Tyrells have no royal claim over that area. Another possible scenario is that Margaery could have married Robb (let's ignore the Freys for a sec) on the condition that Robb supports Mace Tyrell as "King in the South". But like you said, the Tyrells don't seem interested in just taking the Throne.

So it seems you are correct that an alliance between Robb's kingdom and the Reach wasnt in the cards. The only real chance at alliance between Stark and Tyrell was blown when Ned declined to send Loras after the Mountain in AGOT

I dont see how Mace would want his grandson to be King but not he himself....it doesnt make sense. If he wants Marg as a Queen, name her his heir. Robb woould have supported Mace as King of the South no bother. They would be allied Kings. Mace can take the Reach, Crownlands, Stormlands and contest for Dorne if he wants. Robb takes the Riverlands and Vale. They can split the Westerlands between them. This is far more then Joff or Tywin offered. Seal this alliance with Marg and Edmure, Sansa and Willas, Rickon and a highup Reach lady.

Surely there was a need to talk it out at Bitterbridge

[Ramsay Gimp]

Isn't your stategy exactly what happened in the book and that did not work out so well for Robb . If Tywin is not able to save Kings Landing and crush Stannis then Roose Bolton and Walter Frey may not betray Robb and he would be better prepared to defend the north from Balon Greyjoy. Edmure should have been able to figure out that seperating Tywin from Kings Landing was the best strategy and he should be held responsible for making that mistake but the Battle of the Fords was impressive and would lead me to believe that Edmure may become a good Leader in the future if he can be freed from the Lannisters.

It only didn't work out well for Robb because of the Tyrells joining the Lannisters and Balon invading the North. Like I said, he probably would have lost no matter what he did if those things happened. And who's to say that the Tyrells needed Tywin's help to attack Stannis at King's Landing? They had 50,000 or so troops of their own - the Lannister troops were overkill. If Tywin was trapped in the West, the Tyrells can just accept Littlefinger's offer and march on their own

Robb may well have been worse off if he had faced Tywin in open battle in the West.

[Buried Treasure]

I dont see how Mace would want his grandson to be King but not he himself....it doesnt make sense. If he wants Marg as a Queen, name her his heir. Robb woould have supported Mace as King of the South no bother. They would be allied Kings. Mace can take the Reach, Crownlands, Stormlands and contest for Dorne if he wants. Robb takes the Riverlands and Vale. They can split the Westerlands between them. This is far more then Joff or Tywin offered. Seal this alliance with Marg and Edmure, Sansa and Willas, Rickon and a highup Reach lady.

Surely there was a need to talk it out at Bitterbridge

It's about exposure, the person with the crown on their head is the one that loses that head if the other side win the war. By backing the Lannisters the Tyrell's get to be the key ally and essentially powers behind the throne without losing everything if they've declared themselves kings and Stannis wins. Why do you think they had Joffrey killed? (besides his being a monster). Because Joff was old enough to consumate the marriage and firmly bind the Tyrells to his side but by the time Tommen is old enough to father that grandkid the war will either be safely won or lost to Stannis - in which case the Tyrell's will have *discovered* they have been *duped* about the incest and been able to annul virgin Margaery's marriage.

The Tyrell's would have been safe enough if they had sat out the war after Renly died but making themselves into a seperate faction would have put them in a poor position. Most of the Stormlands went to Stannis after Renly's death until he lost them again at the Blackwater. The crownlands are in themselves weak, except for Kings Landing which was in the control of the Lannisters. The Dornish are not going to swear to a house from the Reach and the Tyrell's would not be strong enough to force them. Their faction would consist of the lords of the Reach and a few hangers on. They are not going to win the war to control the south so why not back a side that might and gain political favour rather than backing Robb's bid to breakaway which would result in the only king liking them being the ruler of a seperate kingdom.

In war you have to make sure your generals know what is going on. Even if you can't tell them specifics you tell them the gist as they don't interfere with your master plan. When our underlings mess up whethere it is due to lack of communication or incompetence it is the fault of the leader.

There was a strategy in place for the Riverlands. It involved all the riverlords being on their own lands rather than gathered together in an army. The specifics of how that strategy works Edmure would have been well aware of as he was the one that petitioned Robb for it in the first place. Individual lords defending their lands against small companies of raiders and retreating to castles if Tywin's whole army came past was judged acceptable when Robb was at Riverrun and nothing had changed to make it unacceptable. By gathering the riverlords into an army Edmure made a major change from defensive to offensive actions so why doesn't he get more crap for not informing his commander that he's gone against what had previously been agreed?

[Chaircat Meow]

There was a strategy in place for the Riverlands. It involved all the riverlords being on their own lands rather than gathered together in an army. The specifics of how that strategy works Edmure would have been well aware of as he was the one that petitioned Robb for it in the first place. Individual lords defending their lands against small companies of raiders and retreating to castles if Tywin's whole army came past was judged acceptable when Robb was at Riverrun and nothing had changed to make it unacceptable. By gathering the riverlords into an army Edmure made a major change from defensive to offensive actions so why doesn't he get more crap for not informing his commander that he's gone against what had previously been agreed?

Tywin left HH so Edmure called his banners back together as leaving them scattered was less advisable given the Lannisters were also concentrated. Before my impression was that Tywin was throwing out small raiding parties from the main force which was all encamped at HH (Gregor, Lorch, Hoat). There was no 'strategy' that Edmure was party to, which told him what to do in these circumstances.