Stop Blaming Edmure!

[James Arryn]

I don't get why people feel this is necessarily an either/or. Both Robb and Edmure could bear the blame, or alternatively neither could.

I will say that in my own opinion, Edmure probably bears more. Showing initiative is great only if and when it works...otherwise, as Napoleon said, give me 1 bad general over 2 good ones. Conflicting objectives almost always kill armies. I guess it comes down to how explicit you think Robb was/wasn't, and how explicit he should have had to be.

I would say that a normal examination of military chain of command recognizes that leaders often cannot or do not have time to explicitly detail and explain every command; that often a general guiding objective is given, and then the individual subbordinates are responsible for fulfilling same as best they can, to be priased or censured in terms of how well they did so. Particulalry when they depart from the general guiding objective, subbordinates are in fact often held to be at fault.

I do not agree with the characterization of Robb as someone who eschews responsibility; I think his entire story line is about a kid who takes on responsibility, and does maginificently until he undoes it all by a single and absolutely irresponsible decision. That's his tragedy...I think it is lessened if he had a habit of blaming others. Re: theon, I think it VERY possible that his comment to Theon was exactly what he believed to be accurate.

[SecretaryofEvil]

I totally agree that Edmure gets a completely unfair blaming for what he did. "Hold Riverrun" ...and just what, exactly, does that entail? To me, it made perfectly logical sense for Edmure to anticipate attacks upon Riverrun. What Robb and BF seem to overlook is that it was not Edmure commanding Lannister forces to make forays against Riverrun. Tywin did that, and utterly predictably so. Edmure foresaw this certainty and prepared himself to repulse it.

If Robb and BF were such military geniuses, they also should have known that Tywin would not pass so close to Riverrun without at least making a try at it. If what they wanted Edmure to do was turn off all the lights and hope Tywin would think no one was home, they should have said so. Otherwise, they should have expected Edmure to do exactly as he did, which IMO was perfectly in line with his perfectly vague instructions.

I agree, Edmure's actions made perfect tactical sense. He saw a chance to thwart Tywin's objectives and bloody the Lannister army by taking advantage of a strong defensive position. And Edmure won the battle. Now this was only a strategic error because Robb and Blackfish didn't let Edmure in on the larger strategy. Robb should have specifically instructed Edmure to let Tywin cross the river, if that was what he wanted.

[Ramsay Gimp]

There was a strategy in place for the Riverlands. It involved all the riverlords being on their own lands rather than gathered together in an army. The specifics of how that strategy works Edmure would have been well aware of as he was the one that petitioned Robb for it in the first place. Individual lords defending their lands against small companies of raiders and retreating to castles if Tywin's whole army came past was judged acceptable when Robb was at Riverrun and nothing had changed to make it unacceptable. By gathering the riverlords into an army Edmure made a major change from defensive to offensive actions so why doesn't he get more crap for not informing his commander that he's gone against what had previously been agreed?

This is a huge stretch. What "major change" from defensive to offensive? The whole war was about taking the fight to the Lannisters - you're extrapolating a grand strategy out of a few lords returning to their keeps

[Ramsay Gimp]

I don't get why people feel this is necessarily an either/or. Both Robb and Edmure could bear the blame, or alternatively neither could.

I will say that in my own opinion, Edmure probably bears more. Showing initiative is great only if and when it works..

It did work - Tywin was sent running. Oh, it screwed up Robb's oh-so-obvious plan of "trapping" Tywin on his home turf where he would have a huge numerical advantage over Robb? Guess that should have been spelt out (the supposed plan of Robb and the BF was very very counter-intuitive, and I think it would have backfired)

[Flig]

He told Edmure to "hold Riverrun." The most effective way to protect a position is to make sure it's never attacked, which is exactly what Edmure did.

[Team_Rob]

Hold Riverrun means hold Riverrun.

[jonconn]

Hold Riverrun means hold Riverrun.

Which is exactly what Edmure did.

[James Arryn]

Was he asked to 'hold' Riverrun, or protect it. If we're being pedantic, there is a difference, so the wording matters.

In military parlance, holding a position implies being static. Protecting it does not.

[Flig]

“I mean,” said the Blackfish, “that you owe His Grace your thanks for his forbearance. He played out that mummer’s farce in the Great Hall

so as not to shame you before your own people. Had it been me I would have flayed you for your stupidity rather than praising this folly of

the fords.”

“Good men died to defend those fords, Uncle.” Edmure sounded outraged. “What, is no one to win victories but the Young Wolf? Did I steal

some glory meant for you, Robb?”

“Your Grace,” Robb corrected, icy. “You took me for your king, Uncle. Or have you forgotten that as well?”

The Blackfish said, “You were commanded to hold Riverrun, Edmure, no more.”

“I held Riverrun, and I bloodied Lord Tywin’s nose—”

“So you did,” said Robb. “But a bloody nose won’t win the war, will it? Did you ever think to ask yourself why we remained in the west so

long after Oxcross? You knew I did not have enough men to threaten Lannisport or Casterly Rock.”

He was told to hold it "and no more." Which, as he points out is what he did. Very effectively in fact. In an ordinary scenario this would've been a great move, but because of what Robb and the Blackfish had planned, it backfired. Robb then acts like a condescending prick and expects Edmure to catch on to his unorthodox strategy that he had never even hinted at to Edmure before, when he was expecting to dupe Tywin fucking Lannister with it. So he expected Edmure to figure it out, but not Tywin. This is even sillier when Edmure would've been expected to be kept in the loop, so he wouldn't have even considered that Robb would plan his strategy entirely around something that was never revealed to Edmure. Edmure acted as any competent commander would, Robb, however, poorly communicated his plans, which never leads to anything good.

[Arkantos]

The plans weren't poorly communicated, 'hold' basically means to stay there & defend it, not run off and defend somewhere else a bit further away. If Robb had said, stop Tywin if you can, then Edmure would've been fine, but he didn't, he said to hold Riverrun. Edmure acted as though Robb told him to cover his arse and make sure Tywin doesn't follow, which he didn't. It's clear that if Edmure had stopped to think about anything other than bloodying Tywin's nose he wouldn't have fucked everything up.

Edmure is just an idiot, even Catelyn had doubts about his plan after looking at a map ONCE. Don't even know why Robb & Blackfish were silly enough to trust him with anything as simple as holding a castle, I suppose there weren't many people to give the job to without it seeming like a slight, imagine how it would've been if Edmure was sat in his castle having to take roders from someone else of lesser nobility. There were probably no other options without humilating Edmure.

[Ramsay Gimp]

“I mean,” said the Blackfish, “that you owe His Grace your thanks for his forbearance. He played out that mummer’s farce in the Great Hall

so as not to shame you before your own people. Had it been me I would have flayed you for your stupidity rather than praising this folly of

the fords.”

“Good men died to defend those fords, Uncle.” Edmure sounded outraged. “What, is no one to win victories but the Young Wolf? Did I steal

some glory meant for you, Robb?”

“Your Grace,” Robb corrected, icy. “You took me for your king, Uncle. Or have you forgotten that as well?”

The Blackfish said, “You were commanded to hold Riverrun, Edmure, no more.”

“I held Riverrun, and I bloodied Lord Tywin’s nose—”

“So you did,” said Robb. “But a bloody nose won’t win the war, will it? Did you ever think to ask yourself why we remained in the west so

long after Oxcross? You knew I did not have enough men to threaten Lannisport or Casterly Rock.”

God, I had forgotten just how asshole-ish those two were to Edmure in that scene. He should have let Tywin cross and smash them both in the West, saving himself an undeserved shaming

Also, where does Brynden get off talking to him like that? Edmure is his liege lord, and it isn't right for Robb to encourage him to undermine Edmure's authority like that

[Ramsay Gimp]

The plans weren't poorly communicated, 'hold' basically means to stay there & defend it, not run off and defend somewhere else a bit further away. If Robb had said, stop Tywin if you can, then Edmure would've been fine, but he didn't, he said to hold Riverrun. Edmure acted as though Robb told him to cover his arse and make sure Tywin doesn't follow, which he didn't. It's clear that if Edmure had stopped to think about anything other than bloodying Tywin's nose he wouldn't have fucked everything up.

Edmure is just an idiot, even Catelyn had doubts about his plan after looking at a map ONCE. Don't even know why Robb & Blackfish were silly enough to trust him with anything as simple as holding a castle, I suppose there weren't many people to give the job to without it seeming like a slight, imagine how it would've been if Edmure was sat in his castle having to take roders from someone else of lesser nobility. There were probably no other options without humilating Edmure.

The fact that Edmure didn't understand it, and everyone except those two thought he had won a good victory, means it was poorly communicated. Kind of tautological. If someone doesn't get your orders, they aren't communicated well

[James Arryn]

God, I had forgotten just how asshole-ish those two were to Edmure in that scene. He should have let Tywin cross and smash them both in the West, saving himself an undeserved shaming

Also, where does Brynden get off talking to him like that? Edmure is his liege lord, and it isn't right for Robb to encourage him to undermine Edmure's authority like that

Asshole-ish or not, if the specification was hold, Edmure exceeded his orders and it was costly. I honestly didn't recall the exact phrasing, but as quoted its pretty clear.

Military orders do NOT require a series of explanations. Can you imagine a chain of command working if orders had to be constantly explained and rationionlized? We know of this one being important because its the one that ended up costing, but can you imagine how many orders Robb gave over the course of his command? And how short his command would actually have been if he had to engage in a discussion about each one? the reason orders and military chains of command operate differently from requests or discussions in the private sphere is exactly because there often isn't the time to explain in detail why this is being asked of a subbordinate.

Honestly, I like Edmure, and I think he gets a lot of unfair criticism, but this was his mistake. I am more clear on this now than I was before, when I thought maybe Robb had left is somewhat vague.

As to why BF is talkiing to him that way, he always has. That's why he's the Blackfish. Robb didn't make him that way, and couldn't unmake him that way in a year of sundays.

[Ramsay Gimp]

Actually, Robb did give Edmure clear order:

"Hold Riverrun and Protect His Rear" (Catelyn - another bloody idiot - chapter in ACOK when she returns from the Reach)

Somehow, our great King in the North and that mofo blackfish ommited this part when they were critisizing poor fella.

Guess what A-holes: HE DID EXACTLY AS YOU SAID.

and Robb actually had the bloody fucking gall to scrutinize Edmure over his supposed failure AFTER his majesty doomed his campaign for a sole reason of not being able to reign in his penis.

^Then how do you explain this, Lord Arryn?

[James Arryn]

^Then how do you explain this, Lord Arryn?

Protecting rear/flanks is party to holding, but I agree that's a little more flexible. Which of the 2 were his orders?

[Buried Treasure]

'Hold Riverrun and protect his rear' is what the guards told Catelyn isn't it. It's a third-party repetition of Robb's orders. It is unlikely to be the exact wording Robb used (how often do you repeat other people words exactly?). It proves only that Edmure interpreted his orders as protecting Robb's rear - which we already knew from his actions - not that Robb gave that direction.

[Flig]

The quote is "guard his rear" if that affects anything since we seem to be arguing exact wording now. However, regardless of this, all Robb had to say was "Hold Riverrun and ensure Tywin pursues us. We have a surprise for him," and all would be well in the world. But no, he says "Hold Riverrun" and possibly says "guard my rear." It doesn't take a lengthy discussion to get the plan across, it takes a few more words. This is a miscommunication on Robb's part. Edmure did well with the assigned task, it's not his fault Robb didn't assign him the right task.

This whole thing reminds me of an XKCD comic.

http://xkcd.com/1028/

There's mouseover text for that comic that pertains to this discussion even more. "Anyone who says that they're great at communicating but 'people are just bad at listening' is confused about how communication works."

[Frey Pie]

It did work - Tywin was sent running. Oh, it screwed up Robb's oh-so-obvious plan of "trapping" Tywin on his home turf where he would have a huge numerical advantage over Robb? Guess that should have been spelt out (the supposed plan of Robb and the BF was very very counter-intuitive, and I think it would have backfired)

I wouldnt be so sure. Tywins moving quickly and is going to lose men crossing the Riverlands. Robb had planned to lead him a merry dance around the West before engaging. Robbs been raiding, taking supplies so one must assume he has many remounts for his men, stockpiles of arms and armour etc. He has been ravaging the west so this isnt a stretch. This chase would lead to more casualties for Tywin. So when it comes to battle Tywins numbers and moral will be gone down a fair margin

As for the actual battle, i would say 50:50. It could go either way. Robb and BF were confident but so too is Tywin. If id seen a proper description of the field of battle then perhaps i would have more of an idea. I think Robb was planning for an Agincourt style kinda victory. History has shown many examples of armies which are smaller, better led, more disciplined and professional, with a higer moral beating great odds. Cannae is always my favourite example, not that i think anything like that kind of battle will be seen in the books

[Blackfish Tully]

God, I had forgotten just how asshole-ish those two were to Edmure in that scene. He should have let Tywin cross and smash them both in the West, saving himself an undeserved shaming

Also, where does Brynden get off talking to him like that? Edmure is his liege lord, and it isn't right for Robb to encourage him to undermine Edmure's authority like that

Where do you get that Edmure is Brynden's liege lord? The Blackfish was in service to the Vale and then joined up with Robb as head of his scouts , I do not remember him ever swearing his service to Riverrun.

[Blackfish Tully]

The quote is "guard his rear" if that affects anything since we seem to be arguing exact wording now. However, regardless of this, all Robb had to say was "Hold Riverrun and ensure Tywin pursues us. We have a surprise for him," and all would be well in the world. But no, he says "Hold Riverrun" and possibly says "guard my rear." It doesn't take a lengthy discussion to get the plan across, it takes a few more words. This is a miscommunication on Robb's part. Edmure did well with the assigned task, it's not his fault Robb didn't assign him the right task.

This whole thing reminds me of an XKCD comic.

http://xkcd.com/1028/

There's mouseover text for that comic that pertains to this discussion even more. "Anyone who says that they're great at communicating but 'people are just bad at listening' is confused about how communication works."

Robb left Riverrun months before and a lot of events had transpired in that time , there is no way Robb could gone over every eventuality with Edmure before he left and we do not exactly what he said to Edmure before he left because neither are a POV character. Once Robb was in the west communication with Riverrun would have tought so Edmure was on his own and he had to make decisions based on the information that he was able to gather , i believe that he made the wrong decision and and enabled Tywin to save Kings Landing and join up with the Tyrells but some people might think differently.