Stop Blaming Edmure!

[Barty]

Definately agree. I was annoyed with Robb about this. It was one of the things that made me stop liking him.

Edmure was told to hold his castle. What better way to hold it than by ensuring the enemy never even cross the river so they can attack it in the first place? Failing to share his plans with Edmure, the blame for the failuire lies entirely on Robb.

The plan was made in the field and there was no safe method of communicating it to Edmure. If the OP wants people to stop blaming Edmure for stopping Tywin, then I think it is fair to ask people to stop blaming Robb for not telling Edmure his plans as well because he had no safe way of informing Edmure.

As for what better way to hold a castle - the castle itself was never under threat. Edmure was attacking an army that had no interest in attacking Riverrun.

Edmure swung down from his saddle. He was a head taller than she was, but he would always be her little brother. “Cat,” he said unhappily, “Lord Tywin is coming-”

“He is making for the west, to defend his own lands. If we close our gates and shelter behind the walls, we can watch him pass with safety.”

“This is Tully land,” Edmure declared. “If Tywin Lannister thinks to cross it unbloodied, I mean to teach him a hard lesson.”

The same lesson you taught his son? Her brother could be stubborn as river rock when his pride was touched, but neither of them was likely to forget how Ser Jaime had cut Edmure’s host to bloody pieces the last time he had offered battle. “We have nothing to gain and everything to lose by meeting Lord Tywin in the field,” Catelyn said tactfully.

I think Cat's last quote sums up the situation pretty well - “We have nothing to gain and everything to lose by meeting Lord Tywin in the field”

[Minstral]

Yes... But playing fair was never going to work? That's just common sense.

Edmure was playing more "fair" than either Robb of the Blackfish is my point. Edmure tried to protect his people to a fault, while R&B were going to do typical medieval warfare that was seen throughout the hundred years war; kill the peasants, take their crops, and burn the rest.

[Jaime's Wench]

Edmure was playing more "fair" than either Robb of the Blackfish is my point. Edmure tried to protect his people to a fault, while R&B were going to do typical medieval warfare that was seen throughout the hundred years war; kill the peasants, take their crops, and burn the rest.

Maybe. I don't even remember saying that he knew not to play fair. If I said it over a week ago, my opinion has likely changed since then :-p

I think Edmure feared that Tywin wouldn't just pass through. He would cause whatever havoc he could as he passed.

[Minstral]

I am very much liking this thread!

The fact Edmure is able to think for himself and (only moderatly) defy orders is why I like the character. Bolton was a northman, which meant he should be trustworthy to Robb's cause, no less than Theon... more so than the Freys who had a reputation for backstabbing. At the end of the day, the Stark cause was never going to win by playing safe or playing fair. Edmure knew this, and felt he needed to do something about it. A lot of his 'mistakes' are circumstantial because he was not let in on the true plan and because the Red Wedding took place before anything could come to fruition.

Twas you're quote, and unless I'm getting it wrong you were of the opinion that Edmure acted with this clarity that they needed to fight less fair.... at any rate, I'm exhausted and need sleep.

[Jaime's Wench]

I don't think he felt as though he needed to play unfair. I think he knew Tywin wouldn't play fair. I also think he feared that Tywin could not pass through and leave the lands unscathed.

[Buried Treasure]

The lands were already ravaged by the raiders Tywin had been sending out from the start of the war. Thats what raiders are for and Edmure had already done as much as he could to minimise damage from this by sending the riverlords back to their lands (with Robbs permission). That way the defenders of the land were spread out enough to be able to respond to raids and could fall back to their castles against larger raiding parties. When Edmure recalled the riverlords he undid that and left the parts of the riverlands east of the fords once more exposed to Tywins raiders.

The actual large bulk of Tywins army was less of a concern for damaging the riverlands, as Tywin wanted to move fast (as all knew he needed to to crush Robb quickly and return to KL to face the victor of the Stannis/Renly war) he needed to keep the bulk intact. At the time Tywin was moving west he did not have time to stop and besiege large castles like Riverrun - but when Robb gave the order to 'hold Riverrun' there was the possibity that Tywin might have besieged that castle as he would have had time to respond if Renly hurried his advance to KL.

The strategy Robb set was defensive for the riverlands & riverlords and offensive for the northerners in the west. Edmure knew this as it was set when Robb left Riverrun. Robb never changed this strategy, he changed only his tactical plans when in the west - which Edmure did ot need to know as it did not change Edmure`s part in the strategic plan. Edmure did change the strategy in the riverlands from defensive to offensive (the battle of the fords was tactically defensive but stragetically offensive) which he should not have done without informing / getting permission from Robb. Edmures plan wasn't necessarily bad - if Stannis had not managed to move against KL so soon perhaps the rest of Edmures plan would have worked (or perhaps Tywin would have regrouped and made the crossing? It's not something I've ever seen discussed) but Edmure did exceed his authority by gathering and deploying an army when he had been left with only a garrison.

[Philip Baratheon]

I thought one of Edmure's concerns was that if he let Tywin cross, Robb would have a numerically superior Lannister force bearing down on his rear. Thus it was necessary to stop his King being taken awares from behind. Now, as it happens, Robb wanted Tywin chasing him but Edmure didn't know that. Whenever the plan was made, before moving West or out in the field, Edmure had no idea that Robb actively wanted Tywin to cross. So, Robb and Brynden's criticism of him always struck me as unfair.

[Victor227]

What was Robb's plan anyway in the west? Yes, it was a move that kept his host together and built morale, but if he really wanted Tywin to come after him, how would that ever possibly work out?

Tywin would be marching on him, on his own turf, with a numerically superior force, Robb would have the edge in pillaging to sustain himself, but Tywin would have local support along with access to reinforcements and resupply from his own territories and those of the notoriously loyal Western lords.

Robb's cavalry force was mobile, but far from unstoppable. It seems like he'd lose a straight fight, would eventually be cornered if he chose not to give battle (he couldn't sneak out of the Westerlands either with the Golden Tooth left un-taken and his magic goat-trail blown) and would face constant, whittling opposition all the while.

All things considered, it looks like Edmure saved Robb from facing a devastating defeat at Tywin's hands. The fact that King's Landing -might- have changed hands is rather irrelevant as well, as Robb would be hard-pressed to live long enough to enjoy it, and Stannis and Renly considered him a rebel anyway.

Compared with marching on Harrenhall and unifying his force, it seems like a pretty stupid move on Robb's part.

[Barty]

What was Robb's plan anyway in the west? Yes, it was a move that kept his host together and built morale, but if he really wanted Tywin to come after him, how would that ever possibly work out?

Tywin would be marching on him, on his own turf, with a numerically superior force, Robb would have the edge in pillaging to sustain himself, but Tywin would have local support along with access to reinforcements and resupply from his own territories and those of the notoriously loyal Western lords.

Robb's cavalry force was mobile, but far from unstoppable. It seems like he'd lose a straight fight, would eventually be cornered if he chose not to give battle (he couldn't sneak out of the Westerlands either with the Golden Tooth left un-taken and his magic goat-trail blown) and would face constant, whittling opposition all the while.

All things considered, it looks like Edmure saved Robb from facing a devastating defeat at Tywin's hands. The fact that King's Landing -might- have changed hands is rather irrelevant as well, as Robb would be hard-pressed to live long enough to enjoy it, and Stannis and Renly considered him a rebel anyway.

Compared with marching on Harrenhall and unifying his force, it seems like a pretty stupid move on Robb's part.

Simplest method - ask Bolton to join Edmure and bring in the remaining northern foot and riverlord's armies behind Tywin, which gives Robb a rather big numerical advantage. Or maybe Robb thinks that if Tywin comes west then KL will fall to Stannis and Tywin will become open to negotiation.

Also Tywin's home ground advantage is vastly overestimated - yes, his men know the ground very well but Robb's been in the westerlands for a few months now and he knows the ground pretty well as well - on top of that he has the westerlings to help him. Also in a straight fight it's very difficult to say who wins - Tywin's army is mainly foot(he spent a lot of his horse on raids against the riverlords) and in westeros the infantry is composed of the small folk(farmers, crofters, potters etc) and while Tywin's foot may be slightly better equipped than others they are still no match for Robb's horse - which comprises entirely of heavy cavalry - men who are in heavy armor and have spent their entire lives training for battle. And numbers will count for nothing if a heavy cavalry charge breaks through the front lines - after that it's mainly a choice between being massacred and fleeing - see Battle of Patay where the French cavalry was outnumbered 3-1(like Robb) but won easily with minimal casualties despite the english having the Longbow(which had saved them from quite a few cavalry charges in the past).

Robb and the Blackfish are among the best generals in westeros - I am sure they thought of all this before planning to trap Tywin.

[Arkantos]

May I just say that many people who say Tywin would've raped Robb seem to not understand what a rout is or they seem to greatly overestimate the advantage of being in your homeland.

[Minstral]

What was Robb's plan anyway in the west? Yes, it was a move that kept his host together and built morale, but if he really wanted Tywin to come after him, how would that ever possibly work out?

Tywin would be marching on him, on his own turf, with a numerically superior force, Robb would have the edge in pillaging to sustain himself, but Tywin would have local support along with access to reinforcements and resupply from his own territories and those of the notoriously loyal Western lords.

Robb's cavalry force was mobile, but far from unstoppable. It seems like he'd lose a straight fight, would eventually be cornered if he chose not to give battle (he couldn't sneak out of the Westerlands either with the Golden Tooth left un-taken and his magic goat-trail blown) and would face constant, whittling opposition all the while.

All things considered, it looks like Edmure saved Robb from facing a devastating defeat at Tywin's hands. The fact that King's Landing -might- have changed hands is rather irrelevant as well, as Robb would be hard-pressed to live long enough to enjoy it, and Stannis and Renly considered him a rebel anyway.

Compared with marching on Harrenhall and unifying his force, it seems like a pretty stupid move on Robb's part.

Not true about Tywin being able to catch Robb. His entire host that he brought to the west was horsed, while the majority of of the Lannister force was foot. He would have been able to outpace them fairly easily.

[JamesTruwood]

Ran, I'd be really interested to see this if you manage to find it. This is something that I just keep wondering what the authorial intention was. On one hand, a careful reading seems to completely exonerate Edmure. On the other hand, Catelyn makes some objections to what he did too and she is defintely portrayed as the voice of reason; the worse blunders that happened (The Sack of Winterfell, Sansa's marriage) came about because Robb wouldn't listen to her. So it is one of those things that I've been curious to know how GRRM perceived it as he was writing it.

He tried to help his smallfolk and seems to be the only lord who really cared about his smallfolk. I like him for that alone. And he did defeat Tywin Lannister in battle, that counts for something. I agree with the poster who said that he would have made a great peacetime lord.

Ran, I'd be really interested to see this if you manage to find it. This is something that I just keep wondering what the authorial intention was. On one hand, a careful reading seems to completely exonerate Edmure. On the other hand, Catelyn makes some objections to what he did too and she is defintely portrayed as the voice of reason; the worse blunders that happened (The Sack of Winterfell, Sansa's marriage) came about because Robb wouldn't listen to her. So it is one of those things that I've been curious to know how GRRM perceived it as he was writing it.

He tried to help his smallfolk and seems to be the only lord who really cared about his smallfolk. I like him for that alone. And he did defeat Tywin Lannister in battle, that counts for something. I agree with the poster who said that he would have made a great peacetime lord.

Catelyn as the voice of reason? Catelyn is the reason the war started, and she is the reason Tywin could kill of Robb.

[Victor227]

Simplest method - ask Bolton to join Edmure and bring in the remaining northern foot and riverlord's armies behind Tywin, which gives Robb a rather big numerical advantage. Or maybe Robb thinks that if Tywin comes west then KL will fall to Stannis and Tywin will become open to negotiation.

Also Tywin's home ground advantage is vastly overestimated - yes, his men know the ground very well but Robb's been in the westerlands for a few months now and he knows the ground pretty well as well - on top of that he has the westerlings to help him. Also in a straight fight it's very difficult to say who wins - Tywin's army is mainly foot(he spent a lot of his horse on raids against the riverlords) and in westeros the infantry is composed of the small folk(farmers, crofters, potters etc) and while Tywin's foot may be slightly better equipped than others they are still no match for Robb's horse - which comprises entirely of heavy cavalry - men who are in heavy armor and have spent their entire lives training for battle. And numbers will count for nothing if a heavy cavalry charge breaks through the front lines - after that it's mainly a choice between being massacred and fleeing - see Battle of Patay where the French cavalry was outnumbered 3-1(like Robb) but won easily with minimal casualties despite the english having the Longbow(which had saved them from quite a few cavalry charges in the past).

Robb and the Blackfish are among the best generals in westeros - I am sure they thought of all this before planning to trap Tywin.

Firstly, Tywin getting back to the Westerlands means he has a chance to ask the guys at the Golden Tooth how the hell Robb got through to begin with, which means he's shutting down that magic goat trail. From there, Robb's cut off. His foot and additional forces from the Riverlands can't help him without getting through a gateway castle first.

The Westerlings are definitely an advantage, for Tywin. They were a trap to begin with, and with Tywin back in the Westerlands and in communication with them, that would definitely be used to his advantage. We also know he can't very well stay at the Craig, as it's not a castle that's capable of supporting his force (considering he managed to force a surrender, the thing's no Winterfell), and if Tywin besieged him, he'd just be completely screwed as now he'd be stuck in a castle in the middle of hostile territory.

Robb's force also isn't -that- much more mobile than Tywin's. Cavalry armies can pull off some good short bursts yes, but they still have the same supply requirements as any infantry force. That means they need to keep their spare horses with them. Food, water, spare arms. They're not going to be able to ride at full tilt. If a man loses his horse in combat, and there's no available replacement, he's stuck on foot and Robb doesn't seem the sort to abandon his people. They're also in hostile territory, which means any fortifications in the Westerlands have to be bypassed, and terrain advantageous to archers that can hit and fade have to be thoroughly scouted or bypassed as well.

The biggest disadvantage is that Tywin knows he's the king in this chess-game, and that Robb is being forced to gun for him, otherwise his force will just deteriorate and deteriorate. We know from AGoT that Tywin's not helpless against heavy cavalry either. He's got both organized pike formations, and a heavy cavalry core of his own to work with, not just untrained peasants. All he has to do is get back to the Westerlands, and chase Robb at a slow pace using local allies to reinforce and resupply while taking advantageous positions in preparation for Robb to finally engage him.

Robb's army is not made up of ghost-riding robot-men. They're going to feel the pressure of having to keep mobile in hostile territory, they're going to lose men pillaging and raiding farms, they're going to feel hounded and hunted, and they're going to be facing a cautious commander who's got the example of other commanders to go by in knowing that Robb is a sneaky bastard when it comes to starting fights and is facing them with an army that Robb didn't think he could beat even -with- his foot.

All of the disadvantages Robb talked about back in Game of Thrones still applies when facing Tywin in the Westerlands. Robb didn't think he could take Tywin by surprise then, and it's even less likely now with the examples Tywin's been given of Robb's sneakiness. Robb didn't think his army could beat Tywin's army, and that goes double now that Robb's lost all his foot and is working without any hope of reinforcement or non-pillaged resupply.

He's got two options. Neither of which are very appealing. He can either A) let Tywin chase him around the Westerlands in hopes that the rest of the Lannister power structure down in King's Landing collapses and is replaced with a friendly power (he's a rebel to both Stannis and Renly, so it's pretty unlikely that's going to happen) before his army falls apart and he's killed or captured, or B ) Try to beat Tywin in the field, through trickery most-like. A tactic he already admitted would be near-impossible. He had a plan to get Tywin back to the Westerlands, but there was no indication he ever had a plan to beat him. Even if he did beat Tywin in the field, he'd have to ensure the man was captured, if he got away to Casterly Rock or another fortification, the plan would still fail.

I'm still going with "Edmure saved Robb from himself, and Robb blamed him for it as leverage to encourage the Frey wedding to fix another of his mistakes." What's more, even if Robb had a few more magic goat-trails up his sleeve to beat Tywin, it's not something a reasonable human being could ever predict. Looking at the situation from Edmure's perspective, if Tywin gets through the Riverlands, there's almost no chance or Robb winning in the Westerlands, so Robb still made a mistake in not letting Edmure know in advance, because a reasonable subordinate would use his defensive river-advantage to halt Tywin and prevent that from happening.

[Buried Treasure]

Firstly, Tywin getting back to the Westerlands means he has a chance to ask the guys at the Golden Tooth how the hell Robb got through to begin with, which means he's shutting down that magic goat trail. From there, Robb's cut off. His foot and additional forces from the Riverlands can't help him without getting through a gateway castle first.

The force that was in the Golden Toooth was Stevron's army which Robb already broke. Tywin could try and block every route into the west but every time he split part of his force to do that the main force would become weaker. There are at least two passes into the west south of Riverrun and possibly more. The suprise was not that other routes into the west existed but that Robb was able to find one (if I drive to visit a relative 200 miles away and the one motorway I always use is closed it doesn't mean there are no other roads, just that I have to get a roadmap [= scouts / Grey Wind] out to find an alternative). And Tywin did not have time to wait Robb out in the passes because he had to be ready to defend KL.

The Westerlings are definitely an advantage, for Tywin. They were a trap to begin with, and with Tywin back in the Westerlands and in communication with them, that would definitely be used to his advantage. We also know he can't very well stay at the Craig, as it's not a castle that's capable of supporting his force (considering he managed to force a surrender, the thing's no Winterfell), and if Tywin besieged him, he'd just be completely screwed as now he'd be stuck in a castle in the middle of hostile territory.

This is not a consideration when assessing Edmure's decision-making as the marriage to Jeyne has not occurred when Edmure decided to block the fords. In any case angering the Freys was a disadvantage to Robb but the Westerlings in themselves were not a military disadvantage to him (Lady Sybil's contraceptive potion being a disadvantage, but not of the military variety).

Robb's force also isn't -that- much more mobile than Tywin's. Cavalry armies can pull off some good short bursts yes, but they still have the same supply requirements as any infantry force. That means they need to keep their spare horses with them. Food, water, spare arms. They're not going to be able to ride at full tilt. If a man loses his horse in combat, and there's no available replacement, he's stuck on foot and Robb doesn't seem the sort to abandon his people. They're also in hostile territory, which means any fortifications in the Westerlands have to be bypassed, and terrain advantageous to archers that can hit and fade have to be thoroughly scouted or bypassed as well.

Fair enough point about a cavalty army being only slightly more mobile than foot, but that difference is crucial in that it negates arguments of Tywin being able to catch up with an unaware Robb from his rear. And armies need to put resources into foraging and scouting wherever they are - Tywin isn't free from those same considerations.

The biggest disadvantage is that Tywin knows he's the king in this chess-game, and that Robb is being forced to gun for him, otherwise his force will just deteriorate and deteriorate.

You have it backwards here.

Tywin, when marching west, had a timetable 1) defeat Robb 2) Get back to a position from which an army striking for KL can be met. Robb had none such (until he received word that he needed to return north but neither Robb, Edmure nor Tywin could have anticipated that). It was Tywin that needed to seek battle with Robb, not the otherway round . What you said about Robb keeping Tywin in the Westerlands until the Lannister power structure in KL collapsed from Renly or Stannis would have been an outcome Robb would have found very appealing. He was not in the war to win Kings Landing - he wanted the defeat of the Lannisters.

[Victor227]

The Golden Tooth is intact as of Stafford's defeat. That's the main reason why he was so lax with scouts. He figured that if an enemy army was going to attack, it would have to besiege the Golden Tooth first. Robb attacked that host at Oxcross and routed it. The Golden Tooth is still the main route into the Westerlands, and is widely held as the only accepted crossing capable of moving an army through (Robb pulled off some nigh-miraculous stuff apparently and circumvented literally thousands of years of inter-kingdom warfare with his trick, and Grey Wind is mostly to thank for it).

As for Tywin's timetable, Robb has no means of knowing just how much pressure is on him at any given time. The Tyrell/Lannister alliance was what solidified their victory, and Tywin didn't have to lift a sword or do a thing to make it happen, it was all Tyrion and Littlefinger's doing. Robb can assume that Tywin's on a schedule and has to get to King's Landing, but he doesn't know it for sure. All Tywin has to do is act like he doesn't need to (and lets face it, with Stannis en route, if Tywin made it back to the Westerlands he'd know he's too late to influence that battle anyway. The Battle of the Fords is the only reason Tywin knew about the encroaching force and had time to join the Tyrells in smashing it) and the pressure is right back on Robb to make something happen.

Regardless of who wins at King's Landing, if the Tyrells swoop in and carry the alliance to victory so Margery can take the throne, or Stannis prevails, the moment Tywin steps into the Westerlands, he knows he's too far away and too late to do anything about it, so why not take that frustration out in systematically crushing the enemy he does have in front of him?

As for Robb hoping the Lannisters lose King's Landing, what's it to him? He wants the Lannisters beaten, but that goal is secondary to his other two: Get Sansa and Arya back, and win the freedom of the North. Would Stannis be any more likely to return Sansa for anything less than Robb's capitulation? Would Renly? Both had clear points that the North was going to stay part of the Seven Kingdoms. All he's doing in letting the capital fall is securing the throne for -another- new enemy.

It may have been the only reasonable plan to draw Tywin out, but Robb's still going to be fighting him on Lannister terms. And what's more, Edmure only knows what's going on at face value. He sees a large Lannister army about to bypass Riverrun and head to the west, and he's got a crossing at his disposal where he's capable of bleeding it dry if it wants to get by.

Hold Riverrun? The scout back in Clash of Kings that runs into Cat also adds that "His Grace left Ser Edmure to hold Riverrun and guard his rear.". We don't know for sure if that was part of the order, though one has to wonder why the scout would say so if it wasn't. A good river can be better than a good wall. If Edmure wants to keep Tywin from pressuring Riverrun (thus, holding it more effectively as he doesn't have to enter siege-mode), the river's a very logical place to stop him. He even has the option of falling back to Riverrun if Tywin makes the crossing and begins gathering in force too great to be dislodged. He holds Robb's rear, bleeds Tywin's force at a vastly disproportionate rate, and has an easy fall-back point because even if Tywin does get across, his force has to take time to rally up and organize before doing anything else.There's a reason why everyone agreed with Edmure's plan. Because it was a good one.

[Ponys123]

I still think Robb was an exceptional battle commander, though

For what? He pulled two victories from BF's advice, by moving quicker and where the Lannisters weren't expecting. He couldn't win a war that way - in fact, the original one left his forces divided. So two forced marches - night attacks, what else? He lost the war. TBH the whole draw-Tywin-across-the-river plan sounded like retcon to me.

[Barty]

The Golden Tooth is intact as of Stafford's defeat. That's the main reason why he was so lax with scouts. He figured that if an enemy army was going to attack, it would have to besiege the Golden Tooth first. Robb attacked that host at Oxcross and routed it. The Golden Tooth is still the main route into the Westerlands, and is widely held as the only accepted crossing capable of moving an army through (Robb pulled off some nigh-miraculous stuff apparently and circumvented literally thousands of years of inter-kingdom warfare with his trick, and Grey Wind is mostly to thank for it).

As for Tywin's timetable, Robb has no means of knowing just how much pressure is on him at any given time. The Tyrell/Lannister alliance was what solidified their victory, and Tywin didn't have to lift a sword or do a thing to make it happen, it was all Tyrion and Littlefinger's doing. Robb can assume that Tywin's on a schedule and has to get to King's Landing, but he doesn't know it for sure. All Tywin has to do is act like he doesn't need to (and lets face it, with Stannis en route, if Tywin made it back to the Westerlands he'd know he's too late to influence that battle anyway. The Battle of the Fords is the only reason Tywin knew about the encroaching force and had time to join the Tyrells in smashing it) and the pressure is right back on Robb to make something happen.

Regardless of who wins at King's Landing, if the Tyrells swoop in and carry the alliance to victory so Margery can take the throne, or Stannis prevails, the moment Tywin steps into the Westerlands, he knows he's too far away and too late to do anything about it, so why not take that frustration out in systematically crushing the enemy he does have in front of him?

As for Robb hoping the Lannisters lose King's Landing, what's it to him? He wants the Lannisters beaten, but that goal is secondary to his other two: Get Sansa and Arya back, and win the freedom of the North. Would Stannis be any more likely to return Sansa for anything less than Robb's capitulation? Would Renly? Both had clear points that the North was going to stay part of the Seven Kingdoms. All he's doing in letting the capital fall is securing the throne for -another- new enemy.

It may have been the only reasonable plan to draw Tywin out, but Robb's still going to be fighting him on Lannister terms. And what's more, Edmure only knows what's going on at face value. He sees a large Lannister army about to bypass Riverrun and head to the west, and he's got a crossing at his disposal where he's capable of bleeding it dry if it wants to get by.

Hold Riverrun? The scout back in Clash of Kings that runs into Cat also adds that "His Grace left Ser Edmure to hold Riverrun and guard his rear.". We don't know for sure if that was part of the order, though one has to wonder why the scout would say so if it wasn't. A good river can be better than a good wall. If Edmure wants to keep Tywin from pressuring Riverrun (thus, holding it more effectively as he doesn't have to enter siege-mode), the river's a very logical place to stop him. He even has the option of falling back to Riverrun if Tywin makes the crossing and begins gathering in force too great to be dislodged. He holds Robb's rear, bleeds Tywin's force at a vastly disproportionate rate, and has an easy fall-back point because even if Tywin does get across, his force has to take time to rally up and organize before doing anything else.There's a reason why everyone agreed with Edmure's plan. Because it was a good one.

How is a scout supposed to know what Edmure has been ordered to do?? Robb himself says that he ordered Edmure to only Hold Riverrun and Edmure does not disagree.

Once the goat trail has been found then anyone can use it - how is Tywin supposed to stop Edmure and Roose following him into the west via the trail?? The only conceivable way is to station a lot of men there because together the northern and riverlords' armies number more than 20k. If he does station some 10k men near the trail it would leave him with less than 7k to deal with Robb. He does not have access to reinforcements because the last army of the westlands was destroyed at oxcross(that too consisted of the sweepings of Lannisport - so I imagine the west has next to nothing left in terms of reinforcements). Nor is there much left to forage - Robb has been burning the westlands(and taking a lot of the castles) for months before Tywin reaches him. The only way Tywin gets supplies(in decent quantity) is via Lannisport and Robb is smart enough not to get Tywin close to Lannisport in his chase.

And once KL falls Tywin has nothing left to fight Robb for and he's smart enough to see that(and so is Robb) - Now they both have a common enemy in Stannis(or Renly). At this point Tywin and Robb can make an alliance(very unlikely) or Robb just leaves the westlands with Tywin recognizing Robb's kingship over the North in return for leaving him free to defend himself when Stannis comes for him. Now all Robb has to do is sit and build his armies while the Lion and the Stag fight it out.

[Arkantos]

For what? He pulled two victories from BF's advice, by moving quicker and where the Lannisters weren't expecting. He couldn't win a war that way - in fact, the original one left his forces divided. So two forced marches - night attacks, what else? He lost the war. TBH the whole draw-Tywin-across-the-river plan sounded like retcon to me.

I think that you should go back and read some of the previous pages.

[Barty]

For what? He pulled two victories from BF's advice, by moving quicker and where the Lannisters weren't expecting. He couldn't win a war that way - in fact, the original one left his forces divided. So two forced marches - night attacks, what else? He lost the war. TBH the whole draw-Tywin-across-the-river plan sounded like retcon to me.

So Robb is not a good commander because he has good advisers??He couldn't win a war by defeating enemy armies in the field?? Is that even logical?? He was murdered as a guest in the seat of his own bannerman - something no man can foresee(breaking of guest right has not happened in westeros since the age of heroes and the rat king).

[Ponys123]

Winning a few battles doesn't necessarily win the war. If he just kept trying to prounce on field armies and sack small castles, well good luck being less affected by attrition than the Lannisters.