Fearsome Fred Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Quentyn also sees himself literally engulfed in flames and notes that all of him is on fire.He never sees himself engulfed in dragon-flames. If you mean flames generally, then Dany, or at least her head, was also engulfed in flames. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Thank you for that post, ROTS. It was very interesting to read. However, I wasn't trying to say that burnt hair means a burnt scalp; I was trying to say that, if the dragonfire was around the same temperature as the one that hit Quentyn (both are described as a "furnace wind"), then it is reasonable to assume that it should have burnt her scalp. Unless the temperature of flames is lowered as soon as it hits hair?No, they are not. In the Pit, there is first "furnace wind", i.e. hot breath without flame, and the fire only afterwards. With Quentyn, there is the furnace wind, his companions are alerting him to something behind him, he turns, shielding his eyes, and then he sees he is on fire. The description is rather vague but to me, it seems as exactly the same what happened in the Pit: first breath, then fire.As for the temperature of the burning hair... I believe ROTS has already explained it?Also why are people throwing around the fact that her clothes weren't burnt? No one is saying that. The fire clearly never reached her clothes. But the fire burned all her hair and did not harm her head or her face.Because Dany seems to be drawing a link between the pyre and the Pit, not realizing a couple of substantial differences. Also, the fact that her clothes are not touched by fire means that Drogon's fire didn't go that close to set them afire, and it probably only barely touched, if at all, the ends of her hair as it was flowing behind her when she darted forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted February 21, 2012 Author Share Posted February 21, 2012 He never sees himself engulfed in dragon-flames. If you mean flames generally, then Dany, or at least her head, was also engulfed in flames.The flames are actually touching him. He's not just surrounded by fire. He is on fire.No, they are not. In the Pit, there is first "furnace wind", i.e. hot breath without flame, and the fire only afterwards. With Quentyn, there is the furnace wind, his companions are alerting him to something behind him, he turns, shielding his eyes, and then he sees he is on fire. The description is rather vague but to me, it seems as exactly the same what happened in the Pit: first breath, then fire.As for the temperature of the burning hair... I believe ROTS has already explained it?Yes, you're right. The wind precedes the fire, it's not the same as the fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tze Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 He never sees himself engulfed in dragon-flames.Yes he does. From Quentyn's final POV chapter:When he raised his whip, he saw that the lash was burning. His hand as well. All of him, all of him was burning.No, they are not. In the Pit, there is first "furnace wind", i.e. hot breath without flame, and the fire only afterwards. With Quentyn, there is the furnace wind, his companions are alerting him to something behind him, he turns, shielding his eyes, and then he sees he is on fire. The description is rather vague but to me, it seems as exactly the same what happened in the Pit: first breath, then fire.As for the temperature of the burning hair... I believe ROTS has already explained it?Because Dany seems to be drawing a link between the pyre and the Pit, not realizing a couple of substantial differences. Also, the fact that her clothes are not touched by fire means that Drogon's fire didn't go that close to set them afire, and it probably only barely touched, if at all, the ends of her hair as it was flowing behind her when she darted forward. :agree: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatrickStormborn Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Someone with an honest-to-God chem degree has taken the time to answer this. I've already responded to that but clearly you didn't bother reading my post.What I'm asking is, if the flame was hot enough to burn flesh but only landed on the hair, would her scalp still be burned? This is a serious question. Just because fire burns hair doesn't mean it will burn flesh, I know (I've already aknowledged this). But if the flames were hot enough to burn flesh in the first place, would the hair lower its temperature? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giovanna Neve Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 The first thing that came to mind When I read "fire burned away my hair, but elsewise it did not touch me...had been the same in Daznak’s Pit" I thought :"has Martin gone crazy??her clothes are still there and he just wrote her hands are..." then I realized than what I was reading was dany's pov and I applied the occam's razor "ok dany's brain is not fully functional" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted February 21, 2012 Author Share Posted February 21, 2012 The first thing that came to mind When I read "fire burned away my hair, but elsewise it did not touch me...had been the same in Daznak’s Pit" I thought :"has Martin gone crazy??her clothes are still there and he just wrote her hands are..." then I realized than what I was reading was dany's pov and I applied the occam's razor "ok dany's brain is not fully functional"First post and you just won the grand prize. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nev yn Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 What I'm asking is, if the flame was hot enough to burn flesh but only landed on the hair, would her scalp still be burned?If there was direct flame on the hair, probably. But direct flame would not be required for the hair to ignite and combust. And if "flame hot enough to burn flesh" was close to enough to actually burn the flesh, her clothes would likely have lit on fire too. But they didn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted February 21, 2012 Author Share Posted February 21, 2012 What I'm asking is, if the flame was hot enough to burn flesh but only landed on the hair, would her scalp still be burned? This is a serious question. Just because fire burns hair doesn't mean it will burn flesh, I know (I've already aknowledged this). But if the flames were hot enough to burn flesh in the first place, would the hair lower its temperature?Doesn't this answer your question?After the thing, i.e. hair, has been ignited, the heat it gives off in the process of combustion is called the HEAT of COMBUSTION. This is independent from the temperature or whatever of the initial energy source (dragon fire). This heat of combustion, depends entirely on the material being burned, and the energy released from the breaking of its chemical bonds. ONCE AGAIN, HAS NOTHING THE HECK TO DO WITH THE THING THAT CAUSED THE COMBUSTION IN THE FIRST PLACE. Just a match, or dragon fire, doesn't matter, the hair will burn at the same temperature.My impression is (and RotS can tell me if I'm right), hair doesn't take much energy to burn and as such probably doesn't release much energy once it IS burned. If it doesn't release much energy when it's burned, then in theory, that low level of released energy would not be enough to also cause serious skin damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giovanna Neve Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 First post and you just won the grand prizeWow :drunk: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatrickStormborn Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 If there was direct flame on the hair, probably. But direct flame would not be required for the hair to ignite and combust. And if "flame hot enough to burn flesh" was close to enough to actually burn the flesh, her clothes would likely have lit on fire too. But they didn't.Well the argument is that the flames only landed on the tips of her hair, so would have had to travel down her head, face and neck before reaching her clothes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 My impression is (and RotS can tell me if I'm right), hair doesn't take much energy to burn and as such probably doesn't release much energy once it IS burned. If it doesn't release much energy when it's burned, then in theory, that low level of released energy would not be enough to also cause serious skin damage.Hair, including eyebrows will singe and burn incredibly easily without really doing anything to the skin. As hair is made up of dead cells it doesn't hurt either.(I don't have a chemistry degree, but I do have lots of experience...)Edit for spelling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted February 21, 2012 Author Share Posted February 21, 2012 Well the argument is that the flames only landed on the tips of her hair, so would have had to travel down her head, face and neck before reaching her clothes.He's saying that hair can ignite without actually touching flames. The heat released by the hair -- which requires little energy to ignite (read: it doesn't need to actually touch fire) and as such would release little energy when it did -- would then not to be enough to burn the scalp.(I don't have a chemistry degree, but I do have lots of experience...)I lol'd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatrickStormborn Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Doesn't this answer your question?My impression is (and RotS can tell me if I'm right), hair doesn't take much energy to burn and as such probably doesn't release much energy once it IS burned. If it doesn't release much energy when it's burned, then in theory, that low level of released energy would not be enough to also cause serious skin damage. Okay, thank you. I mean I'm not sure how far we can apply Chemistry to ASOIAF, but I'm happy with this explanation.So, if someone's hair got hit with fire hot enough to burn flesh, they wouldn't receive any burns? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted February 21, 2012 Author Share Posted February 21, 2012 Okay, thank you. I mean I'm not sure how far we can apply Chemistry to ASOIAF, but I'm happy with this explanation.So, if someone's hair got hit with fire hot enough to burn flesh, they wouldn't receive any burns?The. Hair. Didn't. Have. To. Actually. Touch. The. Fire. In. Order. To. Ignite.Are we really still arguing about this? Really? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tze Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 I'm just cracking up at the fact that multiple people on this thread have experience setting their own hair on fire.:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatrickStormborn Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 The. Hair. Didn't. Have. To. Actually. Touch. The. Fire. In. Order. To. Ignite.Are we really still arguing about this? Really?Did the flames not touch the hair? I don't remember. You seem very familiar with Dany's chapters, so I figure you'll know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nev yn Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Apple Martini is accurately characterizing my point. Hair doesn't have to touch fire directly to singe or burn. It's accurate to say that if someone's hair got hit with fire hot enough to burn flesh, their flesh would burn (due to the presence of said flesh-burning flames). You're still assuming the presence and proximity of said flesh-burning flames, though, when Dany's POV has her explicitly dodging them (convection, schmonvection, of course, consistent with most fantasy -- but even then, heat rises).Did the flames not touch the hair? I don't remember. You seem very familiar with Dany's chapters, so I figure you'll know.Several times, the quote where she explicitly ducks the flames has been provided in this thread. If you're willfully ignoring them, it's pretty dickish to ask for more text references since you're already ignoring them."has Martin gone crazy??her clothes are still there and he just wrote her hands are..."That's really why I hypothesized (as did Apple Martini and others) in an earlier thread that Martin is building up to something here, with Dany clearly thinking counterfactually. In the space of one page basically we have her clearing white ooze from burn blisters, then thinking of how that experience showed that fire doesn't touch her. While we can say that "well, maybe she's just immune to dragonfire, the hand burns are clearly from the molten spear", that would put it in the same region as Viserys when he got his golden crown. She used that as a case of him not being a Dragon, since "fire can't burn a Dragon". But we now have an unambiguous example of her having the same problem that Viserys did, yet in the same chapter she thinks of her burns, she still considers herself a Dragon.Dany just reads as a big case of confirmation bias. Barristan too. I can't decide for sure if I think the two are intended to be thematically related as such. They see what they want to see, and shape their worldview based on whatever works best for them. Granted, everyone does it to a degree, but Martin hits us over the head with theirs.Barristan knows bad Targaryens because he can sense the Taint, even though he served Aerys faithfully and thought he was fine until after the Defiance. But Viserys wasn't the right king to serve since he was tainted, even though Barristan only saw him when he was a very young child (so why didn't he see Aerys coming a mile away?). He creates post-hoc rationalization to excuse not serving the rightful Targs sooner, while coming up with excuses for ignoring Dany's atrocities (I don't detect The Taint, so these are just one-off events). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted February 21, 2012 Author Share Posted February 21, 2012 Did the flames not touch the hair? I don't remember. You seem very familiar with Dany's chapters, so I figure you'll know.Every time I try to actually cite the text or the author or bloody chemistry you find some way around it. You want some ray of hope, any ray of hope, that your little brat princess is fireproof. I'm honestly sick of repeating myself over and over and shoveling info that I've already provided just because you insist on being willfully ignorant.Dany ducks underneath Drogon's flames. They never actually hit her. Barristan (thinks he) remembers seeing her hair on fire, but that does not mean that the flames actually hit her hair, as we've said, like, five or six times already now. A sufficient amount of extreme heat in the vicinity of her hair could catch it on fire, without expelling enough energy to burn her, which is what appeared to be the case. In this instance, Barristan could be remembering her lit hair correctly, and she could still be unburned. Dany wants to believe that she's fireproof because honestly I think she's going Targ batshit crazy, and remembers the pit in a way that comports to her preconceived opinion of herself, to the point of saying that she wasn't burned at all despite having burns on her hands. You can give her the benefit of the doubt and put down her lack of sound mind to lack of food or illness if you want, but she's clearly not in her right mind and her skewed memory of the pit reflects this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fearsome Fred Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 So, if someone's hair got hit with fire hot enough to burn flesh, they wouldn't receive any burns?Thermodynamics is a complex subject.But hair burns at somewhere between 400 and 500 degrees F. Flesh below the the epidermis will become injured if heated above 213 degress F. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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