A Public Service Announcement: The Targaryens' (Lack of) Immunity to Fire

[PatrickStormborn]

Edit: And for the record, I think you're severely overestimating the influence those dragons have had on these books. They've had enormous influence on Dany's storyline. But they've actually done very, very little, in the grand scheme of things, when it comes to Westeros.

I think Dany will play a huge role in the future. I just think that role will involve burning a lot of people, and eventually herself, to death.

The dragons have played a huge part on the pacing of the books. Because of them, Tyrion has spent a whole book travelling around Essos, and Dany spent a whole book in Meereen.

The fact is that anyone could do what you're suggesting. I don't see why Martin would develop a character, who many believe detracts from the overall storyline, for five novels when he could have just given her role of burning people to another character.

[PatrickStormborn]

I'm pretty sure Quentyn took a full-on flame to his entire body. He sure as hell didn't "duck" anything too successfully.

I think the point the OP was trying to make is that, if Rhaegal could burn Quentyn (resuling in third-degree burns, I believe?), then Drogon's flame should have burned Daenerys. She ducked and it caught her hair, but the temperature of the flames wouldn't drop, right? So the hair would burn away and then, if the flame of a smaller dragon was hot enough to burn Quentyn, I imagine it would have burned Dany's head.

[House Martell]

Harrenhal was roasted by fully grown, enormous, mature dragons, including, I presume, Balerion the Black Dread. The biggest dragon of Dany's is still a pipsqueak, by a wide margin, next to the smallest of the original three. It's not a good comparison.

I'm pretty sure Quentyn took a full-on flame to his entire body. He sure as hell didn't "duck" anything too successfully.

Ok so they're not old enough to melt stone, but I think its silly to say a flame hot enough to cause mortal (3rd degree?) burns can be neutralized by "ducking" a few inches...

[jarl the climber]

I think its fair to say that Dany probaly have a greater tolerance to fire and heat perhaps but if you doused her with wildfire and and lit a match to her I'm pretty sure that she is a goner. There is an unknown relationship between the Targs and fire, were the original Valyrians worshipers of R'hollor? Perhaps the Targaryeans were exiled to Dragonstone because they had coverted to the 7. I think Tyrion mentions that the fires from the doom of Valyria were enough to even kill dragons, so is there a limit to even a dragons immunity. Danys tolerance probaly isn't much greater than a normal persons all though her blood makes her a good conduit for pyromancy, she might be actually develop this ability going forward if she had a teacher.

I've also assumed that dragons generate heat, that the heat they generate would prevent most people from riding them. Thats why I beleive that Dany does have a higher tolerance for heat but unless there is some magic involved she just has a higher cooking temprature.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

The fact is that anyone could do what you're suggesting. I don't see why Martin would develop a character, who many believe detracts from the overall storyline, for five novels when he could have just given her role of burning people to another character.

I've said this before, to no avail, apparently, but Martin, if you haven't noticed, has this thing where he takes characters and subverts them, developing them in ways that deviate, sometimes greatly, from their original persona.

-Jaime started out as a child-assaulting traitor and ever so gradually begins to find some manner of personal redemption.

-Bran started as the epitome of childlike wonder and innocence; he's now committing an atrocious ethical breach by warging into Hodor.

-Theon started out confident and strutting and is now broken, mentally and physically, a shadow of his former self.

-Sansa started as a pawn in other people's political games and is gradually becoming a shrewd player on her own.

-Arya went from believing in her "pack" and family to becoming No One.

-Cersei started at the height of power and fell from grace to Flea Bottom, literally.

-Robb was going to be the brave freedom fighter who'd save the day, until he was killed.

-Sandor's a cruel murdering bully, until he reveals a sharp sense of morality and a disdain for hypocrisy.

-Tyrion was the everyman and voice of reason, and now he's driven by thoughts of violent revenge.

-Asha goes from being a proud ironborn warrior to literally being Stannis' war prize.

-Stannis goes from sitting on Dragonstone thinking he's the rightful king to mucking around in a blizzard just to get northern endorsements.

The list goes on and on and on.

Dany was pitched as a sweet yet persevering girl who was basically a kind person, wanted to reclaim Westeros and wanted to save as many people as possible. Do you think Martin will leave that persona intact, when he's turned so many others on their heads? I'd argue he's already started to do it: Dany allows for torture -- orders torture -- and has serious delusions of grandeur. She crucifies people of dubious guilt and has started taking style points from a vision of her dead brother that doesn't actually exist. Given the mountain of characters who've become something totally different from what they started as, do you seriously expect the myth of Dany the Great Mother to last for the entire series?

[PatrickStormborn]

Dany was pitched as a sweet yet persevering girl who was basically a kind person, wanted to reclaim Westeros and wanted to save as many people as possible. Do you think Martin will leave that persona intact, when he's turned so many others on their heads? I'd argue he's already started to do it: Dany allows for torture -- orders torture -- and has serious delusions of grandeur. She crucifies people of dubious guilt and has started taking style points from a vision of her dead brother that doesn't actually exist. Given the mountain of characters who've become something totally different from what they started as, do you seriously expect the myth of Dany the Great Mother to last for the entire series?

No, and I've never said she'll remain the "Mother" to her people. By the end of ADWD she's realised that she's the mother of dragons, not the mother of Meereenese. I believe she will become a ruthless conqueror who has a firm rule but brings peace to the nation, like Aegon and his sisters did. But some posters seem to think that means she'll go round burning children for a quick laugh. Firm ruling does not make someone evil. Tywin's ruthless approach to the game of thrones is not why he is hated by so many posters.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

No, and I've never said she'll remain the "Mother" to her people. By the end of ADWD she's realised that she's the mother of dragons, not the mother of Meereenese. I believe she will become a ruthless conqueror who has a firm rule but brings peace to the nation, like Aegon and his sisters did. But some posters seem to think that means she'll go round burning children for a quick laugh. Firm ruling does not make someone evil. Tywin's ruthless approach to the game of thrones is not why he is hated by so many posters.

Because people can eat dragons, right? And live in them. Dragons can grow crops and help prepare for the winter. The dragons give the smallfolk ... any kind of benefit at all, right? You think anybody in Westeros, which has already been through hell, is going to be happy seeing Dany land with three dragons and the ironborn (whom everyone hates, by the way) and the Unsullied, and be happy to sit through that inevitable war? What does Dany think conquering Westeros will entail? Her plan to invade Westeros with the Dothraki was a Charlie Foxtrot coming a mile away; why would this be any different?

"I'm going to land with 40,000 Screamers who will proceed to rape and pillage and burn everything, and they'll love me for it!"

:stunned:

[PatrickStormborn]

Because people can eat dragons, right? And live in them. Dragons can grow crops and help prepare for the winter. The dragons give the smallfolk ... any kind of benefit at all, right? You think anybody in Westeros, which has already been through hell, is going to be happy seeing Dany land with three dragons and the ironborn (whom everyone hates, by the way) and the Unsullied, and be happy to sit through that inevitable war? What does Dany think conquering Westeros will entail? Her plan to invade Westeros with the Dothraki was a Charlie Foxtrot coming a mile away.

"I'm going to land with 40,000 Screamers who will proceed to rape and pillage and burn everything, and they'll love me for it!"

:stunned:

Dany is the only person with enough strength to end the civil war. Stannis will possibly be able to unite the North, but he won't able to go against Aegon/Dorne/the Tyrells/Lannisters. Fire is also a good weapon against wights, so dragons (even if they're not as strong during winter) will be an effective weapon. There's also very little reason to assume she'll even be burning the smallfolk. It's possible that she'll use Drogon against her enemies, but she has never said "when I get to Westeros I'll have to burn some peasants it'll be so fun!!!!!" Or has she? You and tze seem to be experts in the field of Daenerys research, so maybe you can enlighten me.

Even if Dany lands with a khalasar (I personally believe she'll use them to hold her territory in Essos), there's no reason to believe she'll let them rape and pillage. If she really is the stallion who mounts the world (and she most likely is), she'll almost definitely be changing some of the more vile aspects of their culture.

I noticed you didn't respond to the points I made about why I'm starting to question if Dany can withstand fire. I mean, that's what this thread is actually about.

[jarl the climber]

She would actually be the Mare Who Mounts the World.

[slayer420]

I would think of the dragon flame like a blow torch. If you take one and you point it at a flat object like the ground it will spread across the ground once it hits the flat suface. So if a dragon shot fire at the ground it would not just stop when it hits the ground, it would spread arcoss the ground a good 10, 15' i would think. So if it shot fire at you you could not just miss it be a few inchs. I am not saying she is fire proof, but she has fire ressitant to some point. I am not sure how far this goes. apple do you think a normal person could have surived the fighting pit and what dany went through? because I dont think so.

[tze]

How are my points not consistent? Let me make it clear for you:

1) I never thought Dany was immune to fire, and I still don't.

You don't think she's immune to fire. You're . . . simply wondering if she's immune to fire in the pit? Even though GRRM gave an interview in which he said Targaryens are not immune to fire, and the only instance in which Dany survived a fire was a unique and one-time event. Something that can be replicated is not "unique". And she was burned during the event in the pits, an event you call "deliberately ambiguous". There's no ambiguity here. If she were immune to Drogon's fire, she wouldn't have been burned in the pits, as all the fire in said pits was coming from Drogon. Dany clearly wants there to be ambiguity. But that's not the same thing as there actually being ambiguity. She got burned.

3) Dany's hair was set on fire, but she got no burns. Hair burns at a lower temperature than flesh, but we don't know how hot Drogon's flames were.

No burns . . . except for those burns she got? Really?

4) Dany's hands were blistered when she pulled out a spear.

She got burned. And GRRM has said she doesn't have a special immunity fire, so the only way for her to have said immunity would be if you ignored what he said.

I interpreted that quote to mean that immunity to fire is not a Targaryen trait -- which is what this thread is about. Targaryens can burn. But in the other quote ("not ALL Targaryens are immune to fire AT ALL TIMES"), he seems to be suggesting that there are some times when Targaryens are somewhat flame resistant.

The full quote being this: "Lastly, some fans are reading too much into the scene in GAME OF THRONES where the dragons are born -- which is to say, it was never the case that all Targaryens are immune to all fire at all times." Dany, a single Targ, was clearly immune to fire on this one occasion. According to GRRM, "Targaryens are not immune to fire. The birth of Dany's dragons was unique, magical, wonderous, a miracle. She is called The Unburnt because she walked into the flames and lived. But her brother sure as hell wasn't immune to that molten gold." There is no way to look at that and logically deduce that actually this wasn't unique, and it wasn't unique to Dany, but actually other Targs have been fireproof on other occasions, and Dany was safe from fire in the pit, like she was during the dragons' hatching.

Cause "Targaryens are not immune to fire", and Dany's time on the pyre was, I quote, "unique".

The dragons have played a huge part on the pacing of the books. Because of them, Tyrion has spent a whole book travelling around Essos, and Dany spent a whole book in Meereen.

Dany is not actually the center of the books, you know. :) Those dragons have been enormously important to her. If they die, it'll have a huge effect on her, personally, politically, and militarily. It won't have any actual effect on Jon, Tyrion, Victarion, Cersei, Jaime, Brienne, Arya, Sansa, etc., etc. At most, people like Victarion or Tyrion will be disappointed. But they'll find ways to adapt, cause they've been operating without dragons for five books. Dany got those dragons in AGOT and has been relying heavily on them, both literally and metaphorically, ever since. They can very easily die. In fact, it would be bizarre if all of those dragons made it to ADOS. In a fairy tale, absolutely. Not in ASOIAF.

The fact is that anyone could do what you're suggesting. I don't see why Martin would develop a character, who many believe detracts from the overall storyline, for five novels when he could have just given her role of burning people to another character.

You mean . . . GRRM might have created a magical exiled princess who might not actually be a super unique being, especially not in Westeros? Her great contribution might not be peace and "firm rule", since after all she's never actually brought either peace or firm rule to anybody? Dany might actually end up destroying things? Cause . . . she's spent five books leaving death and destruction wherever she goes?

[PatrickStormborn]

I would think of the dragon flame like a blow torch. If you take one and you point it at a flat object like the ground it will spread across the ground once it hits the flat suface. So if a dragon shot fire at the ground it would not just stop when it hit the ground, it would spread arcoss the ground a good 10, 15' i would think. So if it shot fire at you you could not just miss it be a few inchs. I am not saying she is fire proof, but she has fire ressitant to some point. I am not sure how far this goes. apple do you think a normal person could have surived the fighting pit? because I dont think so.

This is exactly what I think.

I just want to see if anyone can find a reason for Dany to receive no burns from Drogon's flame. If the flames of a much smaller dragon can give Quentyn third degree burns, then surely Drogon's fire would have burned Dany? The fire licked the tips of her hair and spread; but, as I've said, if the flames were hot enough to give Quentyn third degree burns, they'd be hot enough for Dany to at least feel something.

No burns . . . except for those burns she got? Really?

She got burned. And GRRM has said she doesn't have a special immunity fire, so the only way for her to have said immunity would be if you ignored what he said.

The burns WEREN'T CAUSED BY FIRE. They were from the spear that was lodged in Drogon.

Honestly, I admire your determination to constantly whine about Daenerys. But it would be nice if you could read my posts as sharply as you seem to read Dany's chapters (you're always very quick to find quotes, which I'm truly grateful for).

[slayer420]

I haven't read it in awhile, but I also thought that that her hands were hurt by trying to hold on to drogon scales. Not sure about this but thats what I thought when I was reading that chapter.

[PatrickStormborn]

I haven't read it in awhile, but I also thought that that her hands were hurt by trying to hold on to drogon scales. Not sure about this but thats what I thought when I was reading that chapter.

It could be. Either way, the point I'm trying to make is that the burns were not caused by fire; they were caused by heat.

[boojam]

It could be. Either way, the point I'm trying to make is that the burns were not caused by fire; they were caused by heat.

You can't get heat from a fire?

[Lady Blackfyre]

Have you thought that maybe Drogon deliberately avoided hitting Daenerys fully? I'm not sure just how precise dragons can be with their aim, or even whether they can regulate the temperature of their breaths (both the hot air that comes out of their mouths and the actual flames).

[jarl the climber]

IMO riding a dragon is like sitting on an exhaust pipe and I think this fact will eliminate most of the prospective riders. Most people would pass out and be burned from the heat they put off.

[House Martell]

Quent received medical attention and still suffered greatly and died from his burns, the fact that Dany could at best have a flame from a larger dragon pass inches above her head then be carried off into the wilderness alone and be seemingly fine without any increased tolerance to fire seems ridiculous, maybe that's GRRMs intention but its silly then...

[House Martell]

ADwD pg. 762

Drogon roared. The sound filled the pit. A furnace wind engulfed her.

ADwD pg.981

Quentyn turned and threw his left arm across his face to shield his eyes from the furnace wind. Rhaegal, he reminded himself, the green one is Rhaegal.

When he raised his whip, he saw that the lash was burning. His hand as well. All of him, was burning.

2 "furnace winds" but two very different results...

[Lady of Long Lake]

Patrick wrote:

Martin's quote: "Not all Targaryens are immune to fire at all times."

Perhaps the key phrase is, " at all times"? This isn't a normal time period. Magic is growing in their land and unusual things are happening.

I think :

Dany may be fire-resistant during THIS magical time period but normally is not

Red Priests can bring the dead back to life but normally do not have that ability

Bran survived a fall that should likely have killed him or mentally incapacitated him

Prophetic dreams are occuring to unusual characters (Jaime +Theon), not because they are greenseers but because magic is awakened in the land.

Direwolves are being born south of the Wall and I've yet to hear of someone north of the Wall saying they've seen a live direwolf.

I hope magic is abound and giving people special gifts. It gives me hope for Jon!