Mayhaps This Was A Blessing - Who Killed Walder Frey?

[Gurkhal]

The reason I think it was a frey plot is because they seemed better prepared to fight, Manderlys men only had knives, Hosteens men had their swords on them.

Well to be honest there have been Freys ending up dead across the North for a few days now it would seem and thus I wouldn't be suprised if the Freys and their soldiers don't take the risk of being taken unarmed any longer.

[IKE]

isn't a schizo Theon another crackpot??

I considered him (even though in-book he's not considered due to being maimed, and 'broken' in spirit by Lady Dustin and Roose) because of the the way in which Walder was killed.

Stabbed repeatedly would be something a crazed, four-fingered Theon would do. I do believe, however, that not all the murders were done by the same one person. A lot of different tensions in Winterfell.

[Bran Vras]

There is remarkable similarity between the murder of Little Walder and the murder of the Bolton guard by Arya in ACoK in Harrenhal: both murders involve an exchange of silver. I have little idea about the signification of the coincidence. But two other murders in the book come with an exchange of money: Pate and the insurance man in Braavos.

The two passages follow for comparison.

When she reached him she pushed back her cloak so he would see the flayed man on her breast. “Lord Bolton sent me.”

“At this hour? Why for?”

She could see the gleam of steel under the fur, and she did not know if she was strong enough to drive the point of the dagger through chainmail. His throat, it must be his throat, but he’s too tall, I’ll never reach it. For a moment she did not know what to say. For a moment she was a little girl again, and scared, and the rain on her face felt like tears.

“He told me to give all his guards a silver piece, for their good service.” The words seemed to come out of nowhere.

“Silver, you say?” He did not believe her, but he wanted to; silver was silver, after all. “Give it over, then.”

Her fingers dug down beneath her tunic and came out clutching the coin Jaqen had given her. In the dark the iron could pass for tarnished silver. She held it out . . . and let it slip through her fingers.

Cursing her softly, the man went to a knee to grope for the coin in the dirt, and there was his neck right in front of her. Arya slid her dagger out and drew it across his throat, as smooth as summer silk. His blood covered her hands in a hot gush and he tried to shout but there was blood in his mouth as well.

“Valar morghulis,” she whispered as he died.

When he stopped moving, she picked up the coin. Outside the walls of Harrenhal, a wolf howled long and loud. She lifted the bar, set it aside, and pulled open the heavy oak door. By the time Hot Pie and Gendry came up with the horses, the rain was falling hard. “You killed him!” Hot Pie gasped.

“What did you think I would do?” Her fingers were sticky with blood, and the smell was making her mare skittish. It’s no matter, she thought, swinging up into the saddle. The rain will wash them clean again.

The murder of Little Walder:

Snow slid from Ser Hosteen’s cloaks as he stalked toward the high table, his steps ringing against the floor. A dozen Frey knights and men-at-arms entered behind him. One was a boy Theon knew—Big Walder, the little one, fox-faced and skinny as a stick. His chest and arms and cloak were spattered with blood.

The scent of it set the horses to screaming. Dogs slid out from under the tables, sniffing. Men rose from the benches. The body in Ser Hosteen’s arms sparkled in the torchlight, armored in pink frost. The cold outside had frozen his blood.

“My brother Merrett’s son.” Hosteen Frey lowered the body to the floor before the dais. “Butchered like a hog and shoved beneath a snowbank. A boy.”

Little Walder, thought Theon. The big one. He glanced at Rowan. There are six of them, he remembered. Any of them could have done this. But the washerwoman felt his eyes. “This was no work of ours,” she said.

“Be quiet,” Abel warned her.

Lord Ramsay descended from the dais to the dead boy. His father rose more slowly, pale-eyed, still-faced, solemn. “This was foul work.” For once Roose Bolton’s voice was loud enough to carry. “Where was the body found?”

“Under that ruined keep, my lord,” replied Big Walder. “The one with the old gargoyles.” The boy’s gloves were caked with his cousin’s blood. “I told him not to go out alone, but he said he had to find a man who owed him silver.”

[Lady Hodor]

Mance Rayder did it, when he was disguised as Abel with his washerwomen.

Or... doesn't he say that it wasnt their doing? :blushing:

Either way, he could have been lying, its not like Theon is in any state to tell.

[Patchface12]

I don't know why so many people think Big Walder is the killer. Just because he doesn't like/approve of his cousin doesn't mean he would kill him. I don't think he has the courage/lack of empathy to do something like that.

Ramsay, on the other hand... him or the hooded man, who I assume is one of the Bastard's boys. I don't think they're all as loyal to Roose as he thinks they are, which may prove very bad for him. I think Ramsay was taking advantage of the wildling murders and killed Little Walder to stir things up between Manderly and the Freys. Unfortunately, it worked. I don't think Wyman can survive the wound Hosteen gave him.

[Wilbur]

The fact that GRRM places nifty little mysteries like this throughout the books just makes them more enjoyable.

I agree that the killer is his Frey cousin, since the Manderlys are so unready for the attack on them by the Freys in the hall.

However, the multiplicity of possible suspects and the air of distrust in Winterfell contemporary to this scene is quite delicious.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

Blood spatter evidence is damn convincing. I can imagine Little Walder trying to go Ramsay on Big Walder, and Big Walder objecting in no uncertain terms -- with steel.

There something going on with those crypts, too. Lady Dustin wanted to see them, Abel and the spearwives wanted to know about them (possibly to use them as a place to hide), I think the hooded man was coming from the direction of the old keep and the crypts, and it really makes no sense for Big Walder to meet anyone there, in the snow, to collect money. I have a crackpot theory that Big Walder unearthed some mystery in the crypts and was killed for it, perhaps as a shout-out to LOTR, when Smeagol and his fishing buddy find the Ring? But most likely we'll never know. :bawl:

[Sid2]

Little Walder was found under a snowbank

The body in Ser Hosteen’s arms sparkled in the torchlight, armored in pink frost. The cold outside had frozen his blood.

Frozen blood does not spatter.

One was a boy Theon knew—Big Walder, the little one, fox-faced and skinny as a stick. His chest and arms and cloak were spattered with blood.

I don't know that there's any need for debate on who did it, but there's certainly room for discussion on why.

[aspasia]

My money is also is on the Frey cousin, the one who wasn't turning into Ramsey's "best boy", but not for any of the reasons others have listed here.

I suspected him the first time I read the scene because it's always the guy who says "I warned him not to go out alone like that!"

Everyone who is making guesses based on Little Walder's going out to meet someone who owed him money-- remember, we have only Big Walder's account that this was even said, and Freys do tend to lie. Quite a lot. Just because one says something is no reason to believe it's factual :)

Big Walder is the only one likely to care a lot about Little Walder's turning into Ramsey Junior. He's most likely to fight back if his cousin tries any sadist moves on him, and also best placed to see what all horrible crap he's up to and care to prevent it. Big Walder does say one thing that implies to me that he's capable of imaginative empathy-- that he would have done as he thinks Manderly did. That shows he is either capable of imagining how others would feel, or just smart enough to predict how others would act given their circumstances.

Or maybe I am just so used to characters in this series being idiots that I grasp at any straw suggesting live brain cells.

[The Big Nasty Bastard]

My guess is Ramsay. Surely Ramsay is always guilty of everything until proven innocent.

[DrogonSnow23]

I think it was one of Varys' "little birds" in hopes to create chaos and madness for the north

[DrogonSnow23]

I think it was one of Varys' "little birds" in hopes to create chaos and madness for the north

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Big Walder killed Little Walder and pinned it on the Manderlys. The clue is the blood. They found the kid under a snowbank, yet Big Walder was "splattered"? Wouldn't happen, not in that cold. If he'd been under a snowbank for any length of time, the blood would be frozen and no one would be splattered but the killer, who would've gotten blood on him when it was hot and fresh. Seeing as the kid was a big follower of Ramsay's, it makes no sense to me why Ramsay would kill him. If Ramsay would kill either of them, surely it'd have been Big Walder, the one resisting his influence.

Big Walder could see the tension between the Manderlys and the Freys and the confusion over the other murders, and exploited it. The spearwives tell Theon they didn't do it and they have no reason to lie.

Manderly has killed and obviously would kill Freys, but he wouldn't do it in such a blatant way where he could be so easily blamed. Not his style.

[Sweet-N-SourRobin]

isn't a schizo Theon another crackpot??

Some people think The Hooded Man is a Tyler Durden-esque figment of Theon's imagination, yes.

I don't buy into the theory myself, but it does sound kinda cool.

[Queen of Spades]

Do you know the TV series Harper's Island ?

(If you haven't watched it entirely but intend to, DO NOT read what follows, this is heavy spoiler)

When Abby finds Henry's brother JD dying in his blood, Henry appears a few moments later, all covered in blood and distressed, saying that he tried to help JD but couldn't.

When I watched it, I found it weird because, if he was trying to help his brother, why the hell was he not beside him ? However, I quickly dismissed the thought, because Henry is JD's brother and you know, he was supposed to be the good guy. There was no apparent reason for him to lie and/or to kill JD.

Well, at the end of the series we learn that Henry is in fact JD's murderer and a cold-blooded psychopath. And we could have known it, we had the proof right before our eyes : we saw him covered with him victim's blood ! But as it made no sense at the time (no known motive), we wouldn't even consider it.

For me, Little Walder's death is follows exactly the same pattern : Big Walder did it, only we don't understand why, because we do not have enough elements yet.

[Ragnorak]

The fact that GRRM places nifty little mysteries like this throughout the books just makes them more enjoyable. I agree that the killer is his Frey cousin, since the Manderlys are so unready for the attack on them by the Freys in the hall. However, the multiplicity of possible suspects and the air of distrust in Winterfell contemporary to this scene is quite delicious.

It is. It also creates the same sense of suspicion that the Boltons must have. The Boltons suspect Manderly but as readers we know which side he's on and we know something is up with teh washerwomen if the Mance connection isn't made. All these mysteries help keep up the tension that would otherwise be absent with the reader knowing more than the Boltons.

[Brienne Tarly]

Was her trip into the crypts to gain the proof of Manderley's words?

Good idea! If Wex mentioned the swords Meera et al. were carrying, and Wyman relayed that info to Lady Dustin... that would explain why she wanted to see for herself...

[The Drunkard]

Maybe it was Little Walder.

:dunno:

You never know.

[Gurkhal]

Big Walder killed Little Walder and pinned it on the Manderlys. The clue is the blood. They found the kid under a snowbank, yet Big Walder was "splattered"? Wouldn't happen, not in that cold. If he'd been under a snowbank for any length of time, the blood would be frozen and no one would be splattered but the killer, who would've gotten blood on him when it was hot and fresh. Seeing as the kid was a big follower of Ramsay's, it makes no sense to me why Ramsay would kill him. If Ramsay would kill either of them, surely it'd have been Big Walder, the one resisting his influence.

Big Walder could see the tension between the Manderlys and the Freys and the confusion over the other murders, and exploited it. The spearwives tell Theon they didn't do it and they have no reason to lie.

Manderly has killed and obviously would kill Freys, but he wouldn't do it in such a blatant way where he could be so easily blamed. Not his style.

I suppose that's a valid point. Guess the Freys are graduating to kinslayers.

[Sir Cortnay Penrose]

The blood looks incriminating I agree, but I am a bit horrified by the suggestion that it was Big Walder. BW is the nicer of the two. At the age of eight, to become a kinslayer, and kill a cousin he has been brought up with, for no apparent reason - if that's nice, the Freys are all psychopaths, and frankly they aren't. (Apart from Olyvar, Perwyn and Roslin, there's Emmon, Merret, Cleos and Fat Walda - none of them hugely likeable, but not monsters.) I like the idea of a reasonably OK Frey in Winterfell, and kinslaying is not OK.

Manderley has the strongest motive, because of wonderful Wylla, of whom he is clearly very fond. Not that I really want Manderley to be a childkiller, either.