Who is Tansy? [possible spoilers]

[Lady Octarina]

This isn't totally on topic, but it does fall into the realm of this discussion. One thing I didn't understand clearly was if Cat was aware of Lysa's relationship with Littlefinger and the abortion.

She seemed to put the pieces together, but did she know what happened when they were girls. She was obviously there at Riverrun, and I remember that she and Lysa think they are both pregnant at the same time when Cat is carrying Robb, but it turns out Lysa is not. If Lysa go pregnant with Petyr's child and had a forced abortion, wouldn't that have been a huge scandal at Riverrun and wouldn't Cat have known that's why Petyr was sent away. I was never clear when she figures out what Tansy means if she knew who's child it was and what happened. I'm rereading Clash of Kings now and she comments about wondering who Lysa had the relationship with but she thinks a hedge knight or singer.

To comment on Lysa and Littlefinger having an ongoing sexual relationship, when they get married in Storm of Swords, doesn't she go on and on about how they are going to make another beautiful child like the first one (the one that was aborted) and that she is so ready to be loud and scream when they are having sex. I can't remember if she wants to scream because they have had to quietly have their affair or if she is so happy to get to have sex with him again.

Well, Catelyn can be blind to evidence when it involves people she loves or cares about. I don't think many people knew about Lysa's abortion, just Hoster (and Brynden? Wasn't that one reason why he left?). I mean, if Catelyn knew Littlefinger disgraced her sister, she wouldn't have been so ready to trust him, and many things could be avoided, really; I'm sure her father did everything in secrecy, otherwise that would be a scandal certain to have reached other parts of the kingdom, and yet other characters that might have been happy to gossip and taunt Littlefinger for it (I'm thinking about Cersei ^.^) would have mentioned it at some point, and not be as ready to believe he had been Catelyn's first, instead of Lysa's.

[sarah.jenice]

Well, Catelyn can be blind to evidence when it involves people she loves or cares about. I don't think many people knew about Lysa's abortion, just Hoster (and Brynden? Wasn't that one reason why he left?). I mean, if Catelyn knew Littlefinger disgraced her sister, she wouldn't have been so ready to trust him, and many things could be avoided, really; I'm sure her father did everything in secrecy, otherwise that would be a scandal certain to have reached other parts of the kingdom, and yet other characters that might have been happy to gossip and taunt Littlefinger for it (I'm thinking about Cersei ^.^) would have mentioned it at some point, and not be as ready to believe he had been Catelyn's first, instead of Lysa's.

Thanks. It does make sense that they would keep it very hushed up. Just with two sisters living under the same roof, I thought maybe Lysa told her, but you are right that it probably would have changed Cat's view of Littlefinger.

So Cat figures out Hoster forced an aboration on Lysa she just doesn't know who fathered the child, right?

[Lady Octarina]

So Cat figures out Hoster forced an aboration on Lysa she just doesn't know who fathered the child, right?

That's what I believe. And I don't think Lysa would have told Catelyn about the father because she obviously saw how LF looked at her sister. Ok, she could have said something out of spite, like "So, you see? He wanted me after all you b*tch", but certainly not after the forced abortion, that would simply have been humiliating for her.

[ledlevee]

If I remember correctly, the books said Robert was sickly because Jon Arryn was an old man when he conceived him. This always made sense to me. I don't see why Littlefinger has to be the father. If Littlefinger were the father, I doubt he would want to kill his own offspring, no matter how creepy and evil he is.

[Patchface12]

Maybe Tansy is the Blackfish's bastard daughter. Maybe he was in love with her mother, and this was the reason he refused to marry. Probably not true, but who knows?

[Darth Pipes]

I think it's funny that Tansy, the proprietess we're introduced to at the Peach/Stoney Sept Inn, has red hair (is that a little red herring joke?).

I thought for a while that it was going to be revealed that Cat was really the bastard daughter of Hoster and Tansy...would have been poetic justice for Cat with the way she treated Jon.

[Baitac]

Fire&Blood: check out the So Spake Martin section on Tansy. It pretty much says that the two tansies are unrelated. As to LF & Lysa's relationship, I thought that when she said "after all the years of secrecy" meant after all the years of her loving LF in secret, but not necessarily that they had been carrying on a sexual relationship in secret for years. I think the possibility of having sex with him would have been a better weapon for him to use against her to manipulate her rather than actually having sex with her. Poor woman, she was so unstable.

[mediterraneo]

Maybe I'm wrong, but I cannot imagine that the last words of a man's life are dedicated to one of the ingredients of a cocktail given to a daughter decades ago.

If Hoster was thinking to that specific episode, to Lysa's abortion, he would have more probable said "poor Lysa", not "Tansy".

I'd somehow prefer that.

I'd somehow prefer that Hoster had secrets to his family. That would give him more stature as a character than the "good but very old father" or "severe but very old father" that Catelyn and Lysa have of him.

But hey, I'm talking of things I would prefer, and things I find more probable.

I'm not sure about this.

And I like the doubt.

[Lyanna Stark]

If I remember correctly, the books said Robert was sickly because Jon Arryn was an old man when he conceived him. This always made sense to me. I don't see why Littlefinger has to be the father. If Littlefinger were the father, I doubt he would want to kill his own offspring, no matter how creepy and evil he is.

Really? So far, LF seems to balk at nothing as long as he gets what he wants in the end (power, wealth, Cat/Sansa). I doubt he'd feel any compunction about using a child he didn't particularly want anyway (sweetrobin) regardless of him being LF's.

[SerNotAppearingInTheSeries]

I'm pretty positive that the "Tansy" that Lord Hoster was repeatedly saying was a name. The way he said it almost seem gentle and with affection, giving the impression that it was in fact, a name of someone close to him and not a plant.

Anyway, why would a dying man be thinking of a plant a few what, days before his death? Why wouldn't he just say Lysa's name or at least mention "daughter" if he was really referring to his making her abort her child? I agree, this could probably mean something more than what Catelyn came up with. After all, she came into her conclusion quite too early, and anyone who watches House or CSI would tell you that the first idea would almost always turn out wrong.

[astilba90]

Tansy is not a person, Tansy is an herb used to abort early pregnancies, Lyssa had to drink it because she got pregnant from sleeping with Littlefinger, who she was in love with, and he was drunk and thought she was Caetlyn.Lord Hoster made Lyssa drink the Tansy and then married her off to John Arryn, but,,,,it left her scarred and unable to bear children, until little sickly Robert came along.He kept referring to all the blood, so obviously it was a forced miscarraige brought on by the Tansy

[Pinkie Baelish]

If LF does end up poisoning Robert, only for us to later find out that he was the boy's father, that would be totally awesome, since the taboo of kinslaying pretty much confirms Baelish is doomed. It also propels LF to even greater heights of villainy.

[Howling Mad]

@Sarah I have no evidence at all. I guess I refuse to believe that Jon Arryn could father a sickly child like Sweet Robin. Being a creep is what Littlefinger does best. It's just something I came up with.I'm sure other people have thought the same thing but I may be the the first person to come out and say it.

LF and Lysa could easily have hooked up duirng there time together in KL to make a little Sweet-Robin. Besides whose to say that all of those Lysa miscarriages really weren't tansy tea induced abortions to prevent a Jon Arryn heir. Lysa as we know loved LF, detested her husband, and was crazy as a loon.

Back to the OP - on its face Hoster's ramblings about "tansy" point to the forced Lysa abortion. However, as we know things are never what they appear to be in GRRM's world.

[Mrs.Grumpy]

I know that. Tansy is all about abortion. But my wishful thinking; Tansy is Cat's bastard sister.

[Blazfemur]

actually lol, im on a reread on asos right now and on this chapter.

it seems pretty obvious despite that i may be wrong, but line by line, this is how I interpreted the chapter:

take the whole segment into context, if you will.

catelyn is in hoster tully's room after she's quarantined there for letting jaime go (Catelyn I).

Catelyn: (in regards to bran/rickon slain by theon allegedly) It's a monstrous cruel thing to lose a child.

Hoster: Tansy (thinking he means name of child)

Catelyn: It's me father, it's Cat.

Hoster: Forgive me.. the blood... oh, please... Tansy... (In my eyes, this could imply he killed Tansy the child, whomever it was)

Catelyn: Who is Tansy?

Hoster: Dead.. you'll have others, sweet babes, and trueborn...

(Annnnnnnnd BAM! My theory: Lysa cheated on Jon Arryn, the baby was someone else's, the baby was to be named Tansy. Hoster gives Lysa moontea or whatever to abort it and keep it a secret from Jon Arryn because, if that baby was born, it'd be a bastard and not trueborn. To further my theory, this bastard was Littlefingers, and to be named Tansy. The blood he speaks of, is the aftermath after Lysa takes the moontea, in which Hoster was the one who may have discovered her mid-abortion, and has a regretful change of heart. Hoster knew Littlefinger is and came from nothing unlike Jon Arryn, and did everything in his power to better Lysa, including killing her unborn child to prevent any mishap between her and Jon Arryn.

As it turns out, Lysa did exactly as Hoster had promised her and did have another child, a trueborn child, Sweetrobin [who i believe to be legitimately Jon Arryn's). However, her body was damaged from whatever Hoster gave her to rid the first bastard, and thus Sweetrobin was born with a birth defect, the shaking thing he does.)

The internet is won, lawyered.

ETA: oh, i didnt read this whole thread. someone had that theory already. goddamnit. sustained.

[LovinRC]

A woman with the unfortunate name of Tansy was Jon's wet nurse. Hoster Tylly's Tansy may or may not have been his "moon tea" to Lysa. Either way, Tansy is either moon tea, Jon Snow's wet nurse or a prostitute.

[Blazfemur]

Continuing the chapter, Catelyn thinks to herself later on,

Youll have others, he said. sweet babes, and trueborn. lysa miscarried 5 times, twice nt he eyrie, thrice at kings landing... but never at riverrun, where lord hoster would have been at hand to comfort her. Never, unless... unless she was with child, that first time...

"That first time." At riverrun? With Hoster? And perhaps Petyr was there, too?

Maybe the reason why Lysa has had all the miscarriages, is because her body was permanently damaged from whatever Hoster gave her to rid that bastard Petyr put in her?

ETA: I still stand by, that Sweetrobin's birth defect was the aftermath of Hoster's wonder potion. Who knows, maybe he was dead for awhile and came back. annnnnd BAM! Sweetrobin is Azor Ahai reborn (not really)

[KingOfTheDirewolves]

Continuing the chapter, Catelyn thinks to herself later on,

Youll have others, he said. sweet babes, and trueborn. lysa miscarried 5 times, twice nt he eyrie, thrice at kings landing... but never at riverrun, where lord hoster would have been at hand to comfort her. Never, unless... unless she was with child, that first time...

"That first time." At riverrun? With Hoster? And perhaps Petyr was there, too?

Maybe the reason why Lysa has had all the miscarriages, is because her body was permanently damaged from whatever Hoster gave her to rid that bastard Petyr put in her?

ETA: I still stand by, that Sweetrobin's birth defect was the aftermath of Hoster's wonder potion. Who knows, maybe he was dead for awhile and came back. annnnnd BAM! Sweetrobin is Azor Ahai reborn (not really)

It would make an interesting plot twist to be sure

[mikelbyl]

I just re-read this chapter as well, and though I understand that tansy (the flower) is an ingredient in Moon Tea (and seemingly one whose dosage can be manipulated to be more or less strong a brew) - and further that this is a key element in the Tully's family history... Nevertheless, in this context it seems 100% clear to me that Tully is calling out the *name* Tansy, not just repeating the name of the flower.

I don't think we have enough to go on to suggest who Tansy might be or what her significance is - though the obvious low-hanging fruit is that Tansy is the innkeeper who had a bastard with Robert Baratheon. It's possibly as simple as Tully having figured out local proof of the allegations related to Cersei's kids.

But I doubt it - there's something we don't know here...