Francis Buck Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 Well I've never really thought of the Others as being a completely different race (okay maybe not never, but not for a long time), I've assumed for a while that they were some kind twisted version of humans, or otherwise some type of "creation" made from humans as other people have said. Very interesting though...I still lean towards them being descended from the First Men, but since we have very little idea of how they really "work", or even what they are, it's hard to speculate at what GRRM is hinting at here. Very interesting nonetheless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Lost Lord Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 I've thought about the "culture" comment throughout the day. It actually is quite important as a rebuttal to non-heretics. I can't be the only one who's had a conversation along the following lines:Me: [puts forth heretical idea about the Others]Non-Heretic: [extremely skeptical]Me: But you see, Martin always says how much he hates one-dimensional "forces of evil" villains like the Orcs. When someone once responded "what about the Others," Martin smiled and said we'll have to keep reading to see where that goes.Non-Heretic: So he probably just means the Others are doing the right thing from their own point of view, but they'll still be the main antagonists of the series!This explodes that last point. If the Others have no culture they are not a distinct race with a distinct point of view. Since we can assume they're not one-dimensional mindless force of evil ice zombies either, that leaves.... the Children. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 It is amazing how the "believers" in the Heresy theory are so quick to interpret any bit of information to suit their needs.To me the reference to the Others not having a culture fits perfectly with the idea that they are in fact one dimensional, utterly alien antagonists that are simply hell bent on eradicating humanity.They are a force of nature.The idea that they are merely a different faction, and will also have a "grey" story arc, is severely weakened by the revelation that they have no culture.Martin hasn't spent that much time developing them, because their purpose is that of an asteroid on its way to impact the earth, or a supervolcano that is about to erupt. They are the overarching existential threat that is supposed to shape the behavior of all the human characters in the series.The Others themselves are not what's supposed to be interesting. Rather, the reaction of the human characters to this threat is what this story is about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lummel Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 With regard to the Lost Lord's post above, Pretty much.Either they have no culture and are semi-automatons, or they are part of the culture of some other creatures (whether First Men or Children)They cannot be independant automatons because we know they have distinct weapons and armour which by definition an automaton like a zombie or a cow couldn't make. Since they have access to a material culture that is distinctive, or they are part of the culture of some other creatures, they must be under the control or controlled by somebody else and almost certainly something or some group that we have already met in the books (it's striking how much is at least mentioned in the AGOT, there isn't much new invention in subseqient books and what there is is concentrated in the East). So we are back to the children as prime suspects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lummel Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 It is amazing how the "believers" in the Heresy theory are so quick to interpret any bit of information to suit their needs.To me the reference to the Others not having a culture fits perfectly with the idea that they are in fact one dimensional, utterly alien antagonists that are simply hell bent on eradicating humanity...Firstly we are playing with ideas and possibilities here - that's what we do.Secondly we know that GRRM has said that he doesn't like one dimensional bad guys and that he is interested in the struggle of the human heart against itself. This comes up in interviews on a regular basis.If the guy has said he's not interested in one dimensional baddies and then apparently has some in his books it seems pretty fair to me to wonder if something else is going on behind the scenes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 Firstly we are playing with ideas and possibilities here - that's what we do.Secondly we know that GRRM has said that he doesn't like one dimensional bad guys and that he is interested in the struggle of the human heart against itself. This comes up in interviews on a regular basis.If the guy has said he's not interested in one dimensional baddies and then apparently has some in his books it seems pretty fair to me to wonder if something else is going on behind the scenes.The Others don't have a human heart in conflict with itself anymore than Dragons do. Cause they aren't human.Martin's interest is in how the HUMANS deal with the internal conflict they experience in the face of this existential threat. The Others are merely part of the background setup.Like his previous novel, the Dying of the Light, where the internal conflicts of the humans on a planet slowly drifting further and further away from its sun was the point of the story.The planet itself didn't need a heart in conflict with itself. It was just the background for the interactions of the human characters living on it.The fading light and cooling planet from that story, is represented by the Others and the Long Night in this story.They are just part of the setting in which the complex HUMAN tale is presented to us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted March 23, 2012 Author Share Posted March 23, 2012 Lost Lord: In the light of the discussions we've been having about the possibility White Walkers are wargs who have first lost their own bodies and then escaped from their secondary ones, I'm beginning to wonder about the extent of the Children's involvement. Here's Old Nan's take on it:“Thousands and thousands of years ago, a winter fell that was cold and hard and endless beyond all memory of man. There came a night that lasted a generation, and kings shivered and died in their castles even as the swineherds in their hovels. Women smothered their children rather than see them starve, and cried, and felt their tears freeze on their cheeks... In that darkness, the Others came for the first time... They were cold things, dead things, that hated iron and fire and the touch of the sun, and every creature with hot blood in its veins. They swept over holdfasts and cities and kingdoms, felled heroes and armies by the score, riding their pale dead horses and leading hosts of the slain."So we have the Long Winter/Long Night, a prolonged period as we've discussed of bad weather; short wet summers, bad harvests, hard winters and an awful lot of people dying, some no doubt fighting to seize or defend what little food was available.Now if we go back to UnCat's calculations about the numbers of wargs, with reservations that they will appear in certain pockets and bloodlines rather than scattered generally, does this not suggest that the appearance of the White Walkers is a consequence rather than a cause of the Winter simply because so many wargs are amongst the dead? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted March 23, 2012 Author Share Posted March 23, 2012 It is amazing how the "believers" in the Heresy theory are so quick to interpret any bit of information to suit their needs.Ah well, its because we're prepared to sweat the detail that we think we're getting close to figuring out what's really going on :cool4: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 Ah well, its because we're prepared to sweat the detail that we think we're getting close to figuring out what's really going on :cool4:Look, I respect your enthusiasm for the topic, and I'm happy for the hours of entertainment the Heresy threads have provided all of us.But honestly, instead of coming closer to the truth, I believe you guys are moving further and further off on a crazy tangent.There is so little substance backing up the increasingly wild speculation, and yet each new post by theorist A simply seems to fire up theorist B and C with even more enthusiasm. It is quite something to behold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted March 23, 2012 Author Share Posted March 23, 2012 Returning to the warging business a happy thought just occurred to me.Jon appears to have warged into Ghost on account of his own body being killed. According to Varamyr's prologue, that's it. He's stuck there until he fades away or Ghost in turn dies, whichever comes first.What if the significance of the Starks' connection with direwolves is that it is uniquely possible to escape from them to become white walkers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 May I ask, Black Crow, what would be the point of Jon being the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, and the rightful King of Westeros, if his destiny is to just become a White Walker? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iceborn Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 -_- GRRM is hiding stuff! I am quite annoyed. Apparently there are scenes he cut from the books and he will reveal them after aDoS, makes life hard for us though :( look at the end: http://www.vancouversun.com/entertainment/movie-guide/Game+Thrones+author+George+Martin+enthralled+series+magic/6344203/story.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 Let me get back to basics here.Jon wants to SAVE his father's people - all the people, in fact. That is his life's mission - my honor means nothing as long as the Realm is safe, remember.The Others raise dead people to kill humans.The two are fundamentally incompatible. Jon's destiny is to fight the Others, not to lead them against the Dragons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iceborn Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 @Free Northman perhaps so, but we are enjoying ourselves here!anyway back to warging Jon may become a "black walker" and retain his body if that dream he had was not just allegory and a present from Bran or BR (they are time travelers after all) And I don't think Jon will ever take the Iron throne, he isn't nasty enough, but he may leas the north.also@Free Northman read the other threads please the idea is that the WW are just some seriously misunderstood guys with odd morals. Although unlikely that is what heresy is here for, but personally I actually agree with you and think the WW are merely a corrupted form of something "good" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 Jon is going to die.Then he will be put on a pyre, the closing words of the vow will be recited, and his body will be burned.But at the same moment that the flames engulf him, Theon or Stannis will be sacrificed in front of a Heart Tree, and their King's Blood will ressurect Jon by ripping his spirit out of Ghost and back into his ressurected body. Only a life can pay for a life, and only a King's Blood can raise a Dragon.Thus Jon will be reborn through a combination of the magic of the Old Gods and of Mellisandre's fires. His will therefore truly be the Song of Ice and Fire.He will now be free of his vows, and able to take up the Throne of Westeros, to lead humanity against the Others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted March 23, 2012 Author Share Posted March 23, 2012 He will now be free of his vows...Jon doesn't do technicalities :cool4: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lykos Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 I actually agree with Free Northman that the story is about how humans deal with hardship and danger and I don´t know why it should be important that Jon might be Rhaegar´s son, for all I know he could be the son of a Green Man of the Isle of Faces. But as some entertain themselves with finding out, who might held a castle for how long, I´m interested in who the Others really are. We have encountered a White Walker only twice. When Weymar Royce attacked one and when Sam killed one. And as far as I know they might have been the same one. We have seen the Wights, who are horrible but no more dangerous than living men, you only need to burn them . The real foe is described as follows by Melisanndre. "...then the wind rose and the white mist came sweeping in, impossibly cold and one by one the fires went out afterward only the skulls remained."and Tormund,"You killed a dead man, aye I heard. Mance killed a hundred. A Man can fight the dead, but when their masters come, when the white mists rise up, how do you fight a mist crow? Shadows with teath, air so cold it hurts to breathe, like a knife inside your chest. ...can your sword cut cold" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 Jon doesn't do technicalities :cool4:"His honor meant nothing as long as the Realm was safe".To save the Realm, he will do what must be done. Leading a few hundred ragged outcasts at the edge of the world won't save the Realm. Leading 250 000 soldiers from all Seven Kingdoms might. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iceborn Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 No he will think that it doesn't count, also he has no claim to the iron throne no-one will accept him and R'hllor won't bring him back as he worships the old gods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lummel Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 ...But honestly, instead of coming closer to the truth, I believe you guys are moving further and further off on a crazy tangent...Having been posting here before ADWD came out I can say that most of what is discussed on the forums is a crazy tangent to what actually happens in the books, but some of the craziest notions like 'Aegon is alive!' have turned out to have some relevence to the story overall :dunno: . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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