Heresy 8

[alienarea]

Just a couple of thoughts I can't seem to get straight:

- the CotF provided obsidian weapons to the First Men to use against the Others - this implies the CotF are not allied with the Others

- if hit with obsidian the White Walkers dissolve without leaving bones - this implies they don't have a solid structure

- Mist and ice are other aggregates of water which the CotF magically used when bringing the "Hammer" - are the White Walkers an unwanted by-product?

- the drowned god - what is dead ...

- Is there a correlation between number of White Walkers and number of wargs?

I guess where I'm stumbling for is that the White Walkers are the spirits of dead wargs (is that where they go after being stuck in an animal?) and/or when the children brought the "Hammer" they possibly killed some of their own a la "friendly fire". Because magic was involved, those became the Others?

[Lummel]

Let me muddy the waters!

We know that the children provided obsidian weapons to the watch and before that to the First Men but we don't know why. Why assume that because obsidian weapons are effective against white walkers that this was the reason that they were given. Really what else do the children have to give as a pledge of good faith and continuing peace?

The White walkers do have a bone structure that is solid but it melts in contact with obsidian. We had some interesting posts about blood colours in an earlier heresy thread - so we can imagine that the White Walkers are some kind of creature adapted to ultra low temperature environments. I think magically the obsidian retains in Martinworld the heat of it's volcanic creation. Just because I can melt an ice cube that doesn't mean that it wasn't solid...

But I think the idea of the white walkers as a by-product of the Children's attempt to use magic to defeat the first men is an interesting possibility. I definitely like the unintended / unthought through consequences, every action must have an equal reaction angle. But it seems to me that the White Walkers are in physical appearance more similar to Men than to Children. "Magic is like a sword without a hilt" is something we've been told a couple of times during the books which makes it clear that it is dangerous to have too much magic sloshing about.

[Clueless Northman]

That was certainly how it sounded as Thoros told it, but perhaps the point once again is that with the red star showering pixie dust over Westeros a simple symbolic ritual suddenly started working on a corporeal level.

Could it be that what Thoros did was actually an ancient resurrection ritual, but with the waning of magic, Red Priests forgot what it really was, and thought it was merely some kind of late rites?

And by ancient, I mean, possibly as old as the Long Night, because obviously magic must have been very powerful when the COTF were around and there were plenty of White Walkers.

[alienarea]

Let me muddy the waters!

We know that the children provided obsidian weapons to the watch and before that to the First Men but we don't know why. Why assume that because obsidian weapons are effective against white walkers that this was the reason that they were given. Really what else do the children have to give as a pledge of good faith and continuing peace?

The White walkers do have a bone structure that is solid but it melts in contact with obsidian. We had some interesting posts about blood colours in an earlier heresy thread - so we can imagine that the White Walkers are some kind of creature adapted to ultra low temperature environments. I think magically the obsidian retains in Martinworld the heat of it's volcanic creation. Just because I can melt an ice cube that doesn't mean that it wasn't solid...

But I think the idea of the white walkers as a by-product of the Children's attempt to use magic to defeat the first men is an interesting possibility. I definitely like the unintended / unthought through consequences, every action must have an equal reaction angle. But it seems to me that the White Walkers are in physical appearance more similar to Men than to Children. "Magic is like a sword without a hilt" is something we've been told a couple of times during the books which makes it clear that it is dangerous to have too much magic sloshing about.

So if the WW have a bone structure, have we seen any WW bones? If we have, how did the WW die? Are there natural causes other than encounter with obsidian?

[Lummel]

Sam rolled onto his side, eyes wide as the Other shrank and puddled, dissolving away. In twenty heartbeats its flesh was gone, swirling away in a fine white mist. Beneath were bones like milkglass, pale and shiny, and they were melting too. Finally only the dragonglass dagger remained, wreathed in steam as if it were alive and sweating. Grenn bent to scoop it up and flung it down again at once.

"Mother, that's cold."

ASOS Samwell I, end of the chapter.

So we have seen their bones. I think the question is open if the white walkers are entirely magical, humans (like craster's sons) that are magically transformed or humans that were magically transformed long, long ago. The quote about their lack of culture pushes me towards the middle option, but I remember as Black Crow reminds us that we still haven't seen any wood dancers. But the creatures do seem to have some kind of physical structure.