Heresy 8

[Black Crow]

Well that's the point. It seems pretty strange that the Nights Watch should be so intimate with Wildlings and yet not know that they burn or have started burning their dead to stop turning them into Wights. When Ygritte is first captured she insists that Orell and the other guy should be burned, and Osha talks about the dead rising. Similarly Tormund also seems pretty clear its something which has only started happening recently.

Yet the White Walkers have been around for a long time at Crasters and are sufficietly known of by Mormont to cause unease but not the screaming ab dabs, without any hint that they trail armies of the undead behind them.

Its clearly something new, or returning from the past, but the link to the White Walkers seems a lot more ambiguous than it did at the beginning.

[Lykos]

@ Elaena Targaryen

The WW, that was killed by Sam, rode a dead horse and Sam found mention of them riding dead animals in the NW records, he also mentions that the corpses of the fallen in battle must be burned to keep them from rising. The Wights of the present seem to shamble in the vicinity of the icy mists. Tormund says to Jon, that Mance killed a hundred dead men.

So why didn´t Maester Aemon know about the Wights? Did they appear because winter was near and it was getting colder? But Aemon would have remembered, if there had been Wights the last Winters, and would have searched out the records that Sam found.

Is Maester Aemon not to be trusted?

I think it´s a really good question. But I have no answers, I noticed recently that I have to be much more careful in my reading. I had completely forgotten that Will witnessed at least 6 WW killing, butchering actually, Waymar Royce, who rose up almost instantly as a Wight to kill Will. I tried to estimate how far from the Wall the three of them were. They said 8 - 9 days ride and I think that would take them close to the Fist.

[Lykos]

I disagree and am going to be heretical in regard to your heresy :) . I think blood magic is at the heart of it or that blood is at least also one of the fundamental powers that can be tapped for magical purposes. Blood is to people as wind, water, fire and so on are to the system of the world (in a Gaia, hand-waving kind of sense). Well that's my theory anyway.

That´s ok, you have quite a head start. I know it´s been speculated that the magic of the Wall comes from blood sacrifices, but I´m not aware of any proof. I´m not even shure the blood used in the magic of the Red Lot is necessary, I have the feeling it´s more like a part of the show, trappings of power and all that.

[Black Crow]

@ Elaena Targaryen

The WW, that was killed by Sam, rode a dead horse and Sam found mention of them riding dead animals in the NW records, he also mentions that the corpses of the fallen in battle must be burned to keep them from rising.

Perfectly true, I'd forgotten about that bit, but it refers to something happening in battle and by definition a very long time ago. Yet the White Walkers have been seen in the intervening period without raising the dead. I suppose it could be a power that they or some of them have, but they only choose to use it in particular circumstances. We've seen how raising the dead with fire magic weakens those who practice it; perhaps once again it exactly the same with the White Walkers. They, or some of them, can raise the dead but they don't like to do it if they don't have to.

[Jojen]

There is a very interesting

, where GRRM tells us what inspired the religions of ASoIaF. Start at 47 min. Most interesting to me is his remark about the Cathar heresy.

The Cathars had a ritual sacrament called the "Consolation," which was believed to wipe away sin and allow the penitent to ascend to a higher level. It was only done once in a follower's life. Some would take this sacrament on their deathbed.

To me, this sounds somewhat similar to the "Kiss of Fire." If Thoros didn't intend to resurrect Beric, then maybe what he was really doing was giving the Red God's sacrament of Consolation (or "Conflagration" as the case may be).

[Black Crow]

That was certainly how it sounded as Thoros told it, but perhaps the point once again is that with the red star showering pixie dust over Westeros a simple symbolic ritual suddenly started working on a corporeal level.

[Nymeria Star-Eyes]

Perhaps only corpses that have been killed and/or had violent deaths can become wights? Similar to some stories that say ghosts only come from people who died violently. Maybe the wights aren't created by anyone, be it WW of CotF, but instead just happen, in the same way that ghosts just happen (in stories) in our world. The reanimation would be the result of any magic floating around up above the wall that doesn't exist below it.

I keep thinking of the scene with Thistle, the only time we've directly seen the transformation from living person to corpse to wight. She died violently, killed by Varamyr, and suddenly was a wight, surrounded by other wights. There weren't any WW of CotF hanging around to raise her up (I think Varamyr, as a wolf, would have sensed them). If it wasn't the other wights, then the only other thing was the mysterious mist/cold wind. If it's the mist that creates wights, then that seems to me to be sort of the embodiment of magic that just exists naturally beyond the wall. When Beric is zombified, Thoros does it personally. If we don't see the WW or CotF running around kissing people or touching them with their icy hands or whatever, it doesn't seem like they could be directly responsible for the wights.

If wights do have something to do with murder, then the sayings "The North Remembers" and "The bones remember" could fit into this context, especially with the theme of vengeance. If wights are raised up by some inanimate, natural force because they were killed, this offers them the chance to seek revenge. Their bones are literally remembering their death and seeking vengeance (like Lady Stoneheart, her whole existence is based on vengeance). And this "cold wind" is of the North. The wildlings that attacked at the fist maybe did so as revenge for being killed by the Watch. We don't know how old the corpses are or where there bodies came from. IIRC Mance mentions that wights had only been picking off wildlings on the edge of the group. Maybe they weren't just after stragglers, but after specific people that had wronged them.

The attack on Mormont might not seem to fit with this, but he did send the men out on the ranging, so he was indirectly responsible for their deaths. Maybe there is some reason the WW can't be sought after for revenge. Because they're dead in a way, too? We don't see any wights tearing each other apart, though I'm sure that some wildlings have killed each other before and both died. The wights in front of the children's cave don't seem to be doing much in the way of angry vengeance, but maybe they've already found it and therefore no longer have a purpose. Maybe the CotF can control them without directly being the ones that created them. Maybe that's why there have been mentions of sleeping wights beneath lakes. They don't have a purpose any more, so they just "sleep".

If I'm right, maybe the uptick in number wights is a result of more violence beyond the wall, combined with more magic from the comet. There have always been deaths due to exposure in the north, but violence and/or murders are probably less frequent in peaceful times. So there would be less wights until tensions rise due to the coming winter etc etc and more fighting starts to happen. The only time wildlings wouldn't be able to burn their dead is if an entire group were killed at the same time, as in a large fight or battle. And, of course, more magic would equal more "cold winds".

[Jojen]

That was certainly how it sounded as Thoros told it, but perhaps the point once again is that with the red star showering pixie dust over Westeros a simple symbolic ritual suddenly started working on a corporeal level.

Most likely.

That may also account for Beric's increasing loss of memory and his sense of self, another unintended consequence of magic returning to the world. Since both the good and the bad define who you are, when you wipe away sin, you erase part of yourself.

It may also be that what fire does not consume may rise up, harder and stronger.

[eivers]

That seems unlikely since Tormund's kid died in his sleep and no one noticed till he rose up the next morning.

[Nymeria Star-Eyes]

Ah, damn, when I was sorting through wight references I missed that one.

Still, even without the vengeance component, I'm inclined to think that the wights aren't directly created by anyone. They're part of the north.

[Black Crow]

Ah, damn, when I was sorting through wight references I missed that one.

Still, even without the vengeance component, I'm inclined to think that the wights aren't directly created by anyone. They're part of the north.

I had the impression that Tormund's stragglers and outriders were being picked off by White Walkers rather slow moving Wights.

Otherwise I'm increasing coming to agree that despite that link drawn by Sam/GRRM in the TV episode the White Walkers may not be personally responsible for creating Wights a la a Thoros style kiss or an icy touch. Its this cold mist business, as seen in Mel's tea-leaves.

Whether this mist is a side effect of the White Walkers' passing or something else entirely remains to be seen, but there's certainly on the one hand a lot of movement by Wights without any signs of White Walkers while on the other hand the White Walkers aren't always accompanied by Wights. Until Ser Waymar sat up again there were no Wights in the prologue and by that time as I noted above the Walkers were long gone without hunting down the rest of the patrol, which is why Gared got away.

Similarly as noted before the fight on the Fist was very much a dog that barked in the night business. According to Old Nan and Sam's books the Others led hosts of the slain, yet the Wights who stormed the Fist weren't led by White Walkers and nor for that matter were any of the other Wights we've seen. Yes there was that one Sam slew but he turned up, a bit like Coldhands, after the battle when they were fleeing through the snow and killed Small Paul in self defence.

There's something we don't know about this and I'm coming back once again to the thought that either the White Walkers are not the Others, or that if they are, they're not the enemy.

Anyway, it could get very embarrassing from a social point of view if every time Craster's sons tooled up to visit their old dad the keep filled up with old corpses.

[Lykos]

@Jojen

Conflagration, I like that. But the Kiss of Fire, as the "Consolation" is a form of the last rites given by catholic priests, I think. GRRM says he mixed a lot together.

Unlike the followers of R´hllor the Cathars didn´t want to change the evil world by fighting the god of evil, but believed that Man himeself is part of the evil material world and has to purify his spirit to reach heaven (the realm of the perfect good god). I´m walking on thin ice here, since I can´t even explain it in german, but it´s April Fool´s Day.

I think the Kiss of Fire is the symbolic promise of eternal life in a world of always summer without darkness or death, as Black Crow said in post #361.

I wonder if Melisandre lives through a Kiss of Fire administered in Asshai. I have the idea that the "fire magic" worked all along in Asshai and that the dragons function as a sort of relay station. But I´m leaning more to the idea that Melisandre needs a new body from time to time and her current one being the one of the volanteene prostitute slave Melony, "her tears were flame". I think it might be similar to the Faceless Men´s faces, that the body retains some of the former memories.

I also wonder if the red comet is really connected to the change in magic, I don´t like these outside influences. The story of the Thief (red comet) being in the Moonmaid (constalation) you brought up in the Howl at the Moon thread made me wonder if the comet is a more regular visitor. Of course it could have been Ygritte making the story up to tease Jon.

I liked the parallels of the House of the Undying and the cave of the Singers you pointed out. I think you asked a very important question about the symbolism of colours. Because I believe the inversion of red and blue in the "Shade of the Evening" - Weirwood paste and Blue heart - Weirwood eyes is very important. I need to think about this.

However the rat faced dwarves and the Weirwood door I see as part of the illusion created to steer Dany to her doom. I think the House of the Undying is a trap to gather the life force of the truth seeking. It also was an attempt to get hold of Dany´s dragons.

The Undying misjudged the bond between Dany and Drogon, I think.

I see the cave of the Singers as a mirror image. The threat is shown openly, the death is shown first the visions come afterwards. The bones in the entrance hall seem very old and could come from the creatures, that were seeking refuge, as well as people, who tried to threaten the "Godhood" of the Children, the Greenseers.

@Black Crow

Regarding the reports of the NW, that Sam found, I dismissed them as very unreliable too. There is a bit where Sam dates report that mentions a King Dorren Stark before Aegons Conquest, which I think might be a mess up of Torrhen Stark, we just don´t know how reliable the ones who wrote the reports are and as you said they were transfered oral reports from rangers or survivers of battles. But there is still the question why Maester Aemon doesn´t mention them.

And the reports are remarkably close to Old Nan´s tales.

******

I speculate that the CotF created a zone of death north of the Wall to protect the last Greenseers, their "Godhood", their cultural memory (the North remembers, maybe?). They tolerate the wildlings as long as they don´t pose a threat, when they unite and create a large force, they´re driven south. Only the clans, like the Thenns, don´t fit into this picture.

I think the Starks are part of this pact. They have to ensure that the death zone is respected, that no human civilization takes hold north of the Wall. I want to mention Eira´s idea of the bones (they remember) in the crypts of Winterfell controlling the White mists. I think they might be giving form to the WW. But I think it also possible that the Children created the "White Lady" of the Night`s King and that the WW are Stark - Other halfbreeds. Old Nan mentions wildling women laying with the Others and giving birth to halfbreeds.

Maybe Craster experimented and created his own gang of WW, this could explain the different behavior of the 6 WW´s butchering Waymar Royce and the lone riding WW, that was killed by Sam.

I think Roose Bolton is after this mysterious secret power of the Starks as well, and that´s why he is at Winterfell.

Another question that is related to my speculation, is: Are there more Greenseers and are the carved faces in the trees necessary to see, or are they just there to make it easier for men to relate to them ( as I believe). Was/ is the Isle of faces full of Greenseers or just trees with carved faces? Does dead Weirwood still have connection to the Weirwood network, as the door under the Nightfort sugests?

[Lummel]

... Does dead Weirwood still have connection to the Weirwood network, as the door under the Nightfort sugests?

I don't believe the night fort door is dead but in any case judging by Theon's dream sleeping in The Ned's weirwood bed in ACOK (?) Weirwood, dead, disconnected from the weirnet and worked into alien form still has a connection either to the collective memory of the children watching through the trees or that weirwood can absorb and release thoughts (presumably in this case from The Ned because Theon dreams of Lyanna splattered with blood).

The power of weirwood stumps is well atested by the ghost of high heart (and Rh'llor's fire not working) and Jaime's dream. But the stumps of course could still be connected to a living tree via the root network.

[Black Crow]

Isn't there a legend/old wives tale about planting a walking stick in the ground and it then growing again. Doesn't have to be true of course but this is a fantasy so its entirely conceivable that weirwood (like all sorts of other things) remembers in Martin's world.

[Lykos]

^ This reminded me of one of my favorite Daria episodes. The crutch is planted at 19:15 min.

[Black Crow]

But I think it also possible that the Children created the "White Lady" of the Night`s King and that the WW are Stark - Other halfbreeds. Old Nan mentions wildling women laying with the Others and giving birth to halfbreeds.

Maybe Craster experimented and created his own gang of WW, this could explain the different behavior of the 6 WW´s butchering Waymar Royce and the lone riding WW, that was killed by Sam.

I think Old Nan's story raises questions again about who the Others really are, because we do know the Starks have intermarried with the Children way back in the past and I still strongly feel that the real Others are the Children. Exactly where the White Walkers fit in remains to be seen and with any luck will be revealed up north in Winds of Winter, but I really don't think the behaviour of those we have seen, whether in the woods killing Ser Waymar or that enigmatic one slain by Sam, was out of the ordinary. I think that was them going about their lawful occasions and that their reputation is somewhat exaggerated. I don't think Craster was experimenting at all - he didn't seem the experimental type - its just there's something in his genes.

[Armstark]

because we do know the Starks have intermarried with the Children way back in the past

Wait, what? I missed that. How do we know that?

[Cryler]

Yeah when did Starks marry Children of the Forest

[Black Crow]

Rickard Stark married a daughter of the King of the Crannogmen, who are generally reckoned to be a branch of the Children.

[Lykos]

And Brandon the Builder was most likely at least part CotF, for he was perceived as a boy when helping in the construction of Storm´s End and had such a long life, that the Maesters thought that Brandon´s Gift must have been given by a different Brandon Stark to the NW.

@Black Crow

I can see that 6 WW would act differently than one, and I agree, we haven´t seen them doing much harm. Regarding Craster, experimenting was probably a bad choice of word, it makes it seem so deliberate, and that´s not what I wanted to say at all. Unlike Roose Bolton, who, I think, is trying to get access to the secret power of the Starks methodically and analyticlly, Craster was gaining access by predisposition ( maybe genes ) without fully understanding. And maybe he wasn´t creating WW at all but suplying the Wights with "fuel". Old Nan told Bran, "They hunted the maids through frozen forests, and fed their dead servants on the flesh of human children."