Heresy 8

[alienarea]

If someone needs to travel all the way there the best bet would be Benjen since he is missing for some time and could have already made some distance.

[butterbumps!]

I have a question about Gorne and Gendel. I know this was touched on in past Heresies, and it was thought that Gendel's children = COTF, and that Gorne's caves might have significance as underground passages into Winterfell, or at least an underground network of some kind.

I guess my question is more about whether there's a consensus opinion of Gendel's children being COTF (pre-existent to Gendel), his own COTF-human offspring, and/ or whether his "children" became a faction of COTF, or something else? I know how fragile timelines are, so the 3,000 years ago we're told by Ygritte is probably debatable... Is there a greater significance to G+G as it relates to the story as a whole?

[Lummel]

If someone needs to travel all the way there the best bet would be Benjen since he is missing for some time and could have already made some distance.

If so then Benjen would either have to become a POV or be accompanied by a POV at least in warg form to avoid the problem of him turning up at the end of the last book and telling everyone that he's solved everything while they were all busy killing each other.

[alienarea]

If so then Benjen would either have to become a POV or be accompanied by a POV at least in warg form to avoid the problem of him turning up at the end of the last book and telling everyone that he's solved everything while they were all busy killing each other.

Bran could maybe see him through weirwoods or warg a bird. Or Jon stuck in Ghost would need to do some catch up.

[Lykos]

@Butterbumps!

You´ve probably already seen it, but I give you the quote by Black Crow Heresy 5 post #19

Again its one of these things where there is no hard evidence as such and its therefore a matter of working things out. Here's Ygritte's story from SoS1:

Deeper he went, and deeper, and when he tried t' turn back the ways that seemed familiar ended in stone rather than sky. Soon his torces began t'fail, one by one, till finally there was naught but dark. Gendel's folk were never seen again, but on a still night you can hear their children's children's children sobbing under the hills, still looking for the way back up...

Jon then asks if this means the way under the Wall has been lost

Some have searched for it. Them that go too deep find Gendel's children, and Gendel's children are always hungry.

The first part is a classic Faerie story still found in Scotland and probably other Celtic cultures as well, although usually involving only a single individual - sometimes a piper who can still be heard playing as he tries to find a way out. The sinister twist here is the bit about those "that go too deep" and do find the children, because we know having now read ADwD that there are Children down there in the caves and that they're surrounded by bones.

anyway.

[Black Crow]

If so then Benjen would either have to become a POV or be accompanied by a POV at least in warg form to avoid the problem of him turning up at the end of the last book and telling everyone that he's solved everything while they were all busy killing each other.

Really don't see Benjen becoming a POV this late in the game given that he's neither been seen nor heard of since halfway AGoT. That being said its certainly possible perhaps even likely that he'll turn up again, but if so I would imagine him being more in the nature of a guide to where the answers lie - which I admit is probably the best argument for him being Coldhands

[Jojen]

I really don't see Jon rising as a Wight simply because that will immediately end with peasants, pitchforks, fire.

If we're right about White Walkers being wargs a safe distance could be involved.

As to up North and the heart of winter I still have this feeling that just as we've initially been misled about the Others the same goes for what Bran saw beyond the rainbow and I use that term advisedly because it was a curtain of light. On a casual reading that could be taken as the Aurora, but that's up in the sky, its not a curtain, and Mel and the Rhlorristas worship the Lord of Light. As I've said earlier I'm wondering whether the threat isn't Winter itself but a threat to the Starks' old kingdom of Winter which needs a new King of Winter to save the day.

Which is perhaps why there must always be a Stark in Winterfell, so that one day a new king will rise from that house?

[Francis Buck]

Yeah I'm also not entirely sure we'll have someone physically traveling that far. Just doesn't seem like there's enough time for it. But I could see Bran warging there via raven or something, or maybe if there's a weirwood there (can weirdwoods grow in arctic temperatures? They don't seem to have much of a problem North-of-the-Wall).

[lokisnow]

To Reach the Light you must pass beneath the shadow.

Dany's going there on dragonwing, imo.

[butterbumps!]

@Lykos- thanks for digging that up. So, basically, the jury's still out on G + G. I can't find textual evidence for this, but it had occurred to me that if the COTF aren't a homogenous group (having a unified position or "endgame" in this), that Gendel's children could be a more aggressive faction than the rest with potentially different motivations, given the descriptions of them. But it's so speculative...

[Guest]

So, I'm new to this very interesting thread. I'm so thrilled to see people thinking outside the box! Unfortunately my eyes glaze over with posts on swords, dates, timelines, ect, so keep doing what you do and I'm just going to focus on the big picture of ice vs. fire, which is much easier for my small brain to grasp.

My main concern about Jon becoming the King of Winter is this: I think his split identity as a highborn bastard of ice and fire is the core of his being, something that will never change even if he finds out who his true mother/father are, even if he becomes legitimized, and even if he goes to the side of Ice, his inner turmoil must remain central to his characterization. Jon is a paradox, existing in a liminal space, and in that sense he will be pulled in both directions for every choice he makes. I suppose the lesson is that he must choose a side, however much that goes against his desire to pursue both options (duty and family, Hardhome and Ramsay). Despite this, I love his asymmetry; I feel like he should always be a peg that doesn't quite fit neatly into a binary.

The question is: can Jon sit in the middle of each decision forever? If he can, I would imagine that being ressurected by earth, fire, and ice magic all at once would add another layer to his contradictory existence. The ice dragon also fits nicely into this (although I'm unsure how being an "ice dragon" and being on the side of Ice makes much sense; wouldn't an ice dragon symbolize a force between the two poles?) If he must choose a side, however, I can see the possibility of him going to the side of Ice (since we already have Dany for Fire and Bran for Earth). I kind of like this idea because Jon, out of all the characters, is the most experimental when it comes to figuring out what the wights are thinking (remember he wanted to go all zombie scientist in ADWD). It would be great if he gets his "answers" by becoming a zombie master himself. :lmao:

However it comes about, I just hope he's an active participant in this choice, and not passively chosen or some bullshit like that. The more agony over it, the better.

Finally, If Jon becomes an Other/leads a host of Others/whatever, do you think the wonderful details that make Jon's double/split identity unique would be lost if he fit easily on one side or the "other" (pun intended)? The only way he could become "whole," to me, is through the True Death, which I think he will experience at the end of the series.

[Jojen]

Any ideas on where G&G planned on going once they got past the Wall? Were they just going to do a little light raiding? I'd like to know how many Wildlings were with them, and how many men the King in the North brought to fight them. Someone must have known they were coming if they were stopped so quickly once they got south of the Wall. I wonder if the Children had a hand in that, and if they nabbed Gendel when he tried to escape back through the tunnels.

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

Not far back we were discussing seasons, magic, and the apparent cyclical nature of them... I think there's more to that.

I was going through Dunk & Egg tales this past week.... you may recall I mentioned reading in mystery knight that Bloodraven was rumored to move around in a mist like our WW friends....

Well, to further reinfoce the relationship between magic & seasonal climate... Dunk recalls in Sworn Sword that Ser Arlan had been fortunate enough to see the very last dragon before it died in Kings Landing.... he then states that Arlan always told him that the winters grew colder and longer after that, while the summers grew shorter.

I've oft said that I think the Others are 'elemental' creatures... perhaps there is a relationship between dragons/others/seasons... in the end of StormOfSwords, when Stannis has defeated Mance's host and is speaking with Samwell about the Other he slew, Stannis describes them as demons made of ice/snow (supported by what happened to the Other after the obsidian dagger).

My theory is developing as such: The Others 'are' winter. They're part of the worst-of-the-worst winters, not exactly alive in the traditional sense... the nature of their existence vs. humans/warm blooded creatures is akin to glass candles vs. a lit taper. WW appear to be alive, just as the glass candle appears to be a flame.

Perhaps this winter has been building up since the dragons died.... as winter approached in all of its fury, and nature's pendulum swung towards ice/winter/cold/long night, it became possible to hatch dragons due to nature trying to balance itself out. As such, I've lately been thinking that we're like to see more dragons in addition to Dany. The eggs have been triggered and are now viable.

Do we know how long dragons have been around? Hundreds of years? Thousands? Forever? Perhaps they've died off before.... say, 150 years before the Long Night? And perhaps when Others wake up, they trigger the dragons?

Dunno.

Def. a close relationship between the length/intensity of the seasons, WW's, and dragons.

Thoughts?

[Black Crow]

Its widely reckoned that magic has been on the up since Dany's dragons hatched but I still hold to the view that it was the red star which bled the magic that inter alia allowed the dragons to hatch. Taking that further and looking at how the last generations of dragons steadily decreased in size, does that not reflect a fading of the magic which raised and sustained them? That in turn could indicate that the cold winds are rising because the same magic is also becoming stronger north of the Wall.

We've talked a lot about history being cyclical and we also note that the Maesters are supposedly opposed to magick. What if the real problem is that normally there's very little magic in the world and what there is very much in the background but every now and again the red star swings by and it swells up, upsetting all sorts of things.

[Black Crow]

Any ideas on where G&G planned on going once they got past the Wall? Were they just going to do a little light raiding? I'd like to know how many Wildlings were with them, and how many men the King in the North brought to fight them. Someone must have known they were coming if they were stopped so quickly once they got south of the Wall. I wonder if the Children had a hand in that, and if they nabbed Gendel when he tried to escape back through the tunnels.

It all happened long long ago of course so we can't be sure that the story as discussed by Jon and Ygritte is entirely accurate.

As discussed up-thread I believe that the story of the Nights King being the 13th Lord Commander and ruling for 13 years is a red herring. Rather I think its the story of the betrayal of the Children and the breaking of the Pact, which is why they ended up fleeing from the North as well as from the Andal kingdoms. This was accomplished by Stark of Winterfell together with Joruman of the Wildlings and we've noted before the difficulty the Wall would create for such an alliance if they were on different sides of it. This is why I think that at the time the Wildlings were still below the Wall, but sometime after Joruman died the Starks tried to extract fealty from the Wildlings who marched south not from beyond but from below the Wall only to be defeated. Some trying to escape through the tunnels, some getting around the Wall and the rest bending the knee as the Mountain Clans.

In this scenario Joruman didn't die north of the Wall, and it was only his horn which was carried north as a tribal treasure.

[Black Crow]

@Lykos- thanks for digging that up. So, basically, the jury's still out on G + G. I can't find textual evidence for this, but it had occurred to me that if the COTF aren't a homogenous group (having a unified position or "endgame" in this), that Gendel's children could be a more aggressive faction than the rest with potentially different motivations, given the descriptions of them. But it's so speculative...

I'm not sure about factions as such, but as ever its worth bearing in mind that the Children encountered by Bran and his friends are singers and greenseers. Thus far we haven't knowingly encountered any wood-dancers - their warriors.

[Ramsay Gimp]

Finally, If Jon becomes an Other/leads a host of Others/whatever, do you think the wonderful details that make Jon's double/split identity unique would be lost if he fit easily on one side or the "other" (pun intended)? The only way he could become "whole," to me, is through the True Death, which I think he will experience at the end of the series.

Perhaps he would the one to finally reconcile the forces of the Cold Night (the Others) with the red god Rh'llor?

[Lummel]

...My main concern about Jon becoming the King of Winter is this: I think his split identity as a highborn bastard of ice and fire is the core of his being, something that will never change even if he finds out who his true mother/father are, even if he becomes legitimized, and even if he goes to the side of Ice, his inner turmoil must remain central to his characterization. Jon is a paradox, existing in a liminal space, and in that sense he will be pulled in both directions for every choice he makes. I suppose the lesson is that he must choose a side, however much that goes against his desire to pursue both options (duty and family, Hardhome and Ramsay). Despite this, I love his asymmetry; I feel like he should always be a peg that doesn't quite fit neatly into a binary...

I think very broadly, very loosely speaking, that there are two types of possible endings for ASOIAF. One is resolution through beating down one side the other is that the discordance is resolved though achieving harmony between all the major elements.

Melisandre (who is never wrong!) is pushing us to see ASOIAF as a big punch up between the forces of fire and the forces of the 'great other'. But fire destroys while ice preserves. Is the victory of fire something to look forward to - it doesn't seem to be unambiguously good. If Melisandre's view of the conflict is correct then burning the weirwoods and the Seven and telling Davos that men are good or bad - you have to choose your side must also be correct. In my opinion this would run counter to the spirit of ASOIAF which is that nothing is ever so straight forward and where Davos in my opinion is closer to the moral centre of the book (a smuggler and a hero, loyal and disobedient, a mixture of good and bad) than Melisandre herself.

The alternative view is Jojen's - 'the land is one'. There are binary powers, ice and fire, bronze and iron, earth and water, but the land is still one. The harmony of the land is composed of the appropriate balance between the opposites. If that is the case then Jon's liminal position could be key (a Snow and a Stark) to reaching a harmonious resolution because that won't be about destroying one part of himself but of being able to balance or rule the opposites.

[Frey spy]

I dont know if my theory counts as heresy or not, but i think that the most prophecies (Asoiaf ones and "real" ones) really serve one purpose, which is no more and not less than simply giving hope to the people.

My point is, that if we try to dig down to core of prophecies (AA, Ptwp), we can find two main things, which are:

1. One day a huge enemy will attack us

2. On the day, when the enemy attacks, one leader among us (people) will rise, and (s)he will defeat our enemy

These are the two premises, and my conclusion is that it doesnt matter who that leader will be, any candidates could do, even if some candidates fail, they can be called "fake", where fake imo doesnt mean: "(s)he was not born to succeed, therefore (s)he failed", but simply (s)he lacked the skills/forces/determination/tactics/supplies/whatever to make a stand.

in my country there is a saying: "everyone is the smith of her/his own luck", and id like to believe in it, that ones fate isnt carved into stone when (s)he borns, but we will become who we are by our deeds. To turn back to ASOIAF i think that in the end it doesnt matter who the AA is, it can be Jon/Arya(how awesome would be, if she was sent to finally "kill" the Great Other, by taking the face of a WW/Wight!)/Dany/Stannis/Davos/Melisandre/Bran/Dolorous Edd/etc, as long as someone will succeed, and liberate the realm from the danger. (other crazy idea as sidenote: what if Jon is Rhaegars son, and he is the Ptwp, but it was interpreted wrong, and he will be the prince of darkness, who will conquer Westeros, and finally gives peace and silence to the realm by killing all men, and unite them as a big "happy" zombie nation. in this scenario Westeros could be Ice and Essos Fire)

Also defeating the fate that the gods/history possibly planned out for us would be deeply satisfying i think. Icant remember in which book, but someone says something like this (i cant quote, i have the first 4 books in hungarian): "we are controlled by our ancestors as puppetmasters, and we are fighting the conflicts they fought for ages". It would be awesome if by the end of the series this cycle could be broken. Fighting against the odds, and laughing at the face of destiny could be main theme of the series.

[Clueless Northman]

In this scenario Joruman didn't die north of the Wall, and it was only his horn which was carried north as a tribal treasure.

Are we really sure of this? I mean, that the horn has been taken North of the Wall?