Heresy 8

[Black Crow]

I would argue though that Fire isn't necessarily different than Earth, Wind and Water (of which I think Ice is, at least physically a subset) as elemental natural forces. Like the other elements, man didn't create fire, but by controlling it, this enabled an exponential leap in progress (technology). I do think it's interesting that fire magic seems omitted from the CoTF toolbox, but it's the form of magic that we've seen largely harnessed by humans.

Ultimately that's what its all about. The notion that the Children are, or are connected with, the Others causes a lot of unhappiness in some quarters and inspires the counter argument that as cuddly tree-hugging bunnies who worship nature they are the antithesis of the death dealing lot from up in the Ice. Yet as we've discussed before death winter, and renewal are all part of the natural cycle, while the worshippers of light and fire fear the dark and what might be lurking in it and so destroy nature with their fires, burning the weirwoods and ultimately strive to establish a long summer with no death.

Therefore with the coming winter what we're seeing is not some ancient evil reborn but nature fighting back, and if necessary fighting as dirty as fire.

[Black Crow]

Did you ever tie the fight between the commanders of Nightfort and Snowgate to the Night's King?

Jon remembers how Benjen told this as a sidenote, when talking about the impossibility to defend the castles on the Wall. The two forts fight. The LC tries to interfere and the fighters join to turn against him. They are brought down and beheaded by the Stark in Winterfell. Two notes on this. This was before the conquest. Why is not "The King in the North" the one interfering? And would the LC not be located in the Nightfort back then? Or is it, that the actuall LC was the rebelious commander of the NF and the Watch elected a new LC, to fight him. And when the history was written by the winner, they omitted this and gave the story a low profile so no one would talk about this. (I just came across this on my reread and was wondering).

Its not been properly discussed except insofar as to point out that in the context of the Watch remaining "true" sticking a knife into the most recent Lord Commander (Jon) is pretty trivial stuff by comparison.

Otherwise yes. I suspect that this is another version of the Night's King story and given that he was erased from the official records its hardly surprising there should be differing versions floating about out there. The involvement of Stark of Winterfell rather than the King of the North is significant not in relation to the conquest for they were Kings in the North before Aegon tooled up with his dragons, but to further back, because as I've suggested before the Starks were originally Kings of Winter, but when Brandon Stark otherwise known as the Nights King was overthrown by his younger brother, Stark of Winterfell, it was he who adopted the King in the North style. OK its a theory, but it fits what we know better than the unreliable history we were fed at the outset.

[Black Crow]

Like Lockesnow mentions, the House of the Undying is attended by dwarves. To Bran, the Children in the cave are smaller than Arya.

But there’s more.

Dany is told that many enter the House of the Undying, but few leave again. Bloodraven’s cave contains the bones of animals, giants, and children, suggesting that many entered—or were brought—and died there. We don’t know if any escaped...

An absolutely splendid post to which I'll only add two observations. Bran is welcomed into the cave because as a greenseer he is a necessary ally, while Dany is brought to the House of the Undying to be neutralised as a threat.

[Clueless Northman]

Dany passes through a door of ebony and weirwood.

Wait, isn't this the door of the Faceless Men temple?

So, the House of the Undying would have a similar door? Interesting...

[Uncat]

Edit: Ok, this was in refference to Butterbumps and the fire magic

I think, that is very interesting, too. Specially because fire is one of mans most important tool, do dominate nature. I'm thinking about the greek legends again. There the use of fire is one thing that sets gods and the newly created man apart. The gods deliberately withheld it from man. Then a hero of man, the half god Prometheus, managed to steal the fire from the gods, so man could become godlike themselves. Maybe it is just like this. Man appropriated fire magic while the children lost it or would not want to use it for being the most dangerous kind of magic. And man are using it to become godlike thus throwing the world of balance. If this is the case, the one thing to solve the situation would be to take the fire magic awa from man.

[Bran Vras]

To return to the supposed journey to the far north that will happen in the last two books of the series, I'd like to submit a speculative remark.

I have noticed that going from south to north in Westeros is very much a journey through time: the Dornishmen are the last comers (and, in some ways, constitute the most modern society of the Seven Kingdoms), before them the Andals arrived and dominate most of the continent, the First men culture that preceded is still prevalent in the north, which in turn probably evolved from a culture alike the wildling's beyond the Wall, the children of the forest found by Bran live much to the north of the Wall.

Following this logic, whatever can be found in the far north might be the remnant of what preceded the children of the forest as the dominant "people" of Westeros.

[Uncat]

Wait, isn't this the door of the Faceless Men temple?

So, the House of the Undying would have a similar door? Interesting...

And what's also intersting is, that the open door at the house of the undying looks very much like the Black Gate once it has opened - just like a hufe hole in tree. (the comparison was made in the thread "Howling to the Moon")

[Black Crow]

Another observation on Jojen's post. If the Undying are indeed connected with a local chapter of the Children then that would suggest that as a species they are indigenous to the whole of Martin's world and not just Westeros. This might explain why the original Azor Ahai who vanquished the darkness long long ago seems to be an easterner with a name or title that sounds Ghiscari and that the great victory might have been won out east rather than in Westeros. It might also explain Varys' enigmatic remark about doing it for the children. The possibility that he might have mean the Children was raised, discussed and discarded months ago, but if it turns out that the Children are spread all across Westeros, Essos and beyond and working with human initiates such as Pyat Pee's lot, then in principle there'n no reason why Varys might not also be an initiate and a player in a much bigger game than deciding who gets to sit on the Iron Throne.

[Uncat]

To return to the supposed journey to the far north that will happen in the last two books of the series, I'd like to submit a speculative remark.

I have noticed that going from south to north in Westeros is very much a journey through time: the Dornishmen are the last comers (and, in some ways, constitute the most modern society of the Seven Kingdoms), before them the Andals arrived and dominate most of the continent, the First men culture that preceded is still prevalent in the north, which in turn probably evolved from a culture alike the wildling's beyond the Wall, the children of the forest found by Bran live much to the north of the Wall.

Following this logic, whatever can be found in the far north might be the remnant of what preceded the children of the forest as the dominant "people" of Westeros.

Wouldn't that be nice, if it actually were the COTF who coined the therm " the Others" refering to those, that they had one pushed into the far north? And the First Man just adopted it without knowing, what or who it really meant. An wouldn't it be cute if the whole mayham was once started by the children, when they occupied Westeros as the dominant race commiting their own genocide and driving all the others to the North ;)

[jon rr stark]

Another observation on Jojen's post. If the Undying are indeed connected with a local chapter of the Children then that would suggest that as a species they are indigenous to the whole of Martin's world and not just Westeros. This might explain why the original Azor Ahai who vanquished the darkness long long ago seems to be an easterner with a name or title that sounds Ghiscari and that the great victory might have been won out east rather than in Westeros. It might also explain Varys' enigmatic remark about doing it for the children. The possibility that he might have mean the Children was raised, discussed and discarded months ago, but if it turns out that the Children are spread all across Westeros, Essos and beyond and working with human initiates such as Pyat Pee's lot, then in principle there'n no reason why Varys might not also be an initiate and a player in a much bigger game than deciding who gets to sit on the Iron Throne.

You suggesting that Varys is working for the COTF?

[jon rr stark]

There is a very interesting

, where GRRM tells us what inspired the religions of ASoIaF. Start at 47 min. Most interesting to me is his remark about the Cathar heresy.

Very interesting indeed on the whole religion thing. The dualism of the gnostics, with the earth being made by the darkness to stop the light escaping. There is an inbalance between light and darkness (ice and fire) with some of each wrapped up in the other. Lord of light and the great other are entangled and need disentangling to reset the balance in the world.

Azor Ahai being like ahura mazda the eternal spirit who maybe returning in Jon (or whoever) to battle angra mainyu who is - no idea - whoever is pulling the WW strings Bloodraven?? some might think.

Both being wrapped up in each other also leands to the theory we cant have just good and evil, theres a bit of both in all the characters

[hotweaselsoup]

An absolutely splendid post to which I'll only add two observations. Bran is welcomed into the cave because as a greenseer he is a necessary ally, while Dany is brought to the House of the Undying to be neutralised as a threat.

Yes, great post by Jojen on the parallels between Bran's cave and the House of the Undying! I'd just like to add - and maybe it was so obvious that it didn't need pointing out - but the most startling (to me, anyway) parallel between the two places were the two chambers of wizened ancients - the singers entangled in their weirwood roots, and the Undying in their chamber with the weirdly pulsing blue heart. The Undying were clearly a menace to Dany, but I don't think they brought her there simply to kill her. I think these nearly-dead creatures wanted to feed on her, tap into her life force in a parasitical way. The same may be true of the singers and Bran, if the parallel holds. Drogon rescued Dany from the clutches of the Undying by destroying that creepy blue heart with fire. I have a feeling that Bran is also going to escape his cave somehow - maybe with Summer's help?

[Lummel]

Gets back to what we've imagined before. The undying need Dany, she has a power that they need to feed off. And the children, are they so very different? Surely Bran and Bloodraven are only in the Children's cave because they are needed. They are there to be exploited.

[Lummel]

...Following this logic, whatever can be found in the far north might be the remnant of what preceded the children of the forest as the dominant "people" of Westeros.

I like the symetry of the idea and I agree with the observation that Dorne is the most modern and you go back in time as you go north but seeing as apparently the White Walkers have no culture, or no culture of their own, then that would mean introducing another new kind of creature. I think that is unlikely at this stage. There is less and less new invention as the series progresses. A surprising amount is already there in AGOT.

[Black Crow]

Gets back to what we've imagined before. The undying need Dany, she has a power that they need to feed off. And the children, are they so very different? Surely Bran and Bloodraven are only in the Children's cave because they are needed. They are there to be exploited.

I agree with this but would add a twist. The Children as I keep observing are thought by many to be cuddly tree-huggers who are going to reveal how to defeat the Others and save the world; yet those we've just met are a deeply creepy bunch down in the darkness and may not be cuddly at all, especially if there's a tie-in with the Undying.

So far so good, but what about the White Walkers? You see I have these nagging doubts about them. Its assumed they're the bad guys and responsible for the Wights, but what if they're not? We've seen how it was the forest which seemed to close in on the Nights Watch at the Fist which suggests a close connection between the Children and the Wights especially, if seems likely the Wights outside their cave were guarding it rather than besieging it. But what are the White Walkers really up to?

In the prologue as written, Royce's patrol catches up with a band of Wildlings. They are reported to be all dead but when Royce arrives he fnds them vanished, and then the White Walkers turn up, Ser Waymar challenges, they fight and he's killed. The Walkers then leave without hunting down the other two rangers, and instead its Ser Waymar rising up as a Wight who kills Will.

In the TV version the White Walkers dismember the dead Wildlings - presumably to prevent them rising as Wights

Then there's the battle on the Fist entirely fought out between Wights and the Nights Watch with never a White Walker in sight until afterwards when one slides off an undead horse and kills Small Paul in self defence before Sam slays him.

They're not exactly going all out to slaughter every living thing.

[Elaena Targaryen]

After Black Crow's last post on wight's, children, and WW I am more curious about the wights and there is something that I'm not sure if it was just the show but I think it was implied in the books. It seemed like no one (except for maybe wildings) knew anything at all about the wights until Othor and Jafer turn up dead and brought back south of the Wall. It seems like Mormont had no idea why the bodies were strange and that you should burn them so they don't rise as wights. But everyone knows about WW, COTF, giants, direwolves, and so on. If the wights have been, or are, such a problem then why does no one know that this happens? I would think if people die north of the Wall and they rise as wights if you don't burn them, that should be more common knowledge, because it's happening to actual people. Is this something new or has this been going on for a while and either way the NW should have known, they send rangers out, also they know all about what Craster does so why don't they know about wights?

ETA Also does Sam ever mention finding any books talking about wights? If he found so many on WW why did they not mention wights? It seems like wights have been a bigger problem than WW so far.

[Black Crow]

A very good point.

Without me troubling to dig up the actual wording Mormont complains that the Watch have forgotten far too much and connects using fire to destroy Othor with the Wildlings burning their dead, but they'd never asked why. This would suggest that until very very recently there had been no Wights, which is confirmed by Osha when she explains that it is fear of the Wights which is bringing the Wildlings together under Mance.

Yet absolutely contrarily Mormont is troubled but not unduly worried about the White Walkers at Eastwatch and although he doesn't know about it they also drop by Craster's regularly.

As to Sam, I don't recall any mention of Wights in his research either - although the TV episode in which he says Wights are raised up by White Walkers was written by GRRM so that doesn't rule out a connection.

[alienarea]

We have dragons, and in fantasy when there is a dragon, a dragonslayer appears. Usually a Last Hero type of person. I wonder if the White Walkers are the dragonslayers? They are ranging for dragons, everything else on their part is a by-product?

[Black Crow]

Its an intriguing thought but I've got Jon the Ice Dragon slated for the dragon-slayer role.

I think at this stage all we can now be confident about is that the White Walkers aren't the embodiment of evil out to slay every living thing

[Elaena Targaryen]

I did forget that Old Nan mentions them in her story about the WW and the Long Night, "riding their pale dead horses and leading hosts of the slain." "and fed their dead servants on the flesh of human children." Are there any other mentions of them, because I'm not surprised Old Nan knows, but if Jon heard her stories then he should have known. Are the wights only connected with the Long Night and this happening is a sign of another LN? I mean if there have been "wights" then why are the NW not concerned about them and only consider wildlings a threat? Maybe the wildlings did a good job preventing wights, with being sure they burn their dead, but some of the NW rangers have good relations with some of the wildlings so they should know all about wights I would think, unless it just started up again.