Heresy 8

[Lykos]

It was the vision of the Doom, that caused the Targaryens to go to Dragonstone. Why they didn´t attack Westeros earlier I don´t know either, but the castle on Dragonstone, I think, was build with help of the volcano the description sounds like it´s built of concrete, molten stone would do the trick, when it´s shaped by magic. And I believe that volcanos are essential to hatch dragons, but I have no idea how this knowledge could have been lost by the Targaryens.

[Uncat]

Is that vision tied to the PTWP? I did not get to that part in my reread yet and can't remeber it. All I seem to remeber, is that there is an old book about the visions some Targeryan girl once had.

[hotweaselsoup]

Thank you skillful reader & noble quote finder!

Yes, that's the big issue really as far as I see it. Because if the Azor Ahai legend is really about fighting harpies or taming dragons in order to fight Old Ghis then Melisandre is being driven by a prophecy that has perhaps no relevence to the struggles for power in Westeros or the continual shift between fire and ice.

When that happened isn't important but how it drives the characters is going to have a big influence on the books.

If the R'hllor cult is modeled on Zoroastrianism, then Azor Ahai is perhaps comparable to that religion's savior-figure, who is prophesied to arise to combat the forces of darkness and chaos in one great last battle. My understanding is that Zoroastrians see the world as one big battleground between the two opposing forces of Good and Evil, and I have a feeling that Melisandre sees her world in much the same way. In other words, I don't think the geographic particulars of the Azor Ahai story matter to Melisandre. I think she sees everything in terms of R'hllor versus the Great Other - light against darkness - and whether Azor Ahai appears in Essos or Westeros is immaterial, as evil darkness is present everywhere in the world, and the battle against it is ongoing.

[Lykos]

@Uncat

The vision is believed to be in the book sign and portents and was received by the maiden daughter Aenar Targaryen. It is speculated that Rhaegar was reading this book when he came to the believe that he was the PTWP. I´m growing less certain of this every day, now. Rodrik "the reader" Harlaw is belived to have obtained a copy of this book.

ETA: I have to correct myself Rodrik Harlaw reads about the book in Archmaester Marwyn´s Book of Lost Books.

[Uncat]

@Howeaselsoup

That is pretty much like I'm comming to see things right now. It is going something like this:

The comet and the long summer as well as the prediction of a harsh, long winter alarms the red lot. They know their Enemy is gathering forces and they have to A find out where and B make out their saviour. Their atention turns to Westeros. While this happens, an age old and completly plan of Bloodraven and the Children starts to get in motion. This happens to happen at a very cold place with some ancient magic. Mel (and her bosses?) are instantly prepared to see The Great Other raising there and start out in their eternal war to stop him and what ever the costs. I.e. it is not the case that two foes from the dawn of time start to take it to another round. Instead two parties will clash only because one of them decided, that the other one is the Enemy, capital E.

@Lycos

Thank you!

[Black Crow]

If the R'hllor cult is modeled on Zoroastrianism, then Azor Ahai is perhaps comparable to that religion's savior-figure, who is prophesied to arise to combat the forces of darkness and chaos in one great last battle. My understanding is that Zoroastrians see the world as one big battleground between the two opposing forces of Good and Evil, and I have a feeling that Melisandre sees her world in much the same way. In other words, I don't think the geographic particulars of the Azor Ahai story matter to Melisandre. I think she sees everything in terms of R'hllor versus the Great Other - light against darkness - and whether Azor Ahai appears in Essos or Westeros is immaterial, as evil darkness is present everywhere in the world, and the battle against it is ongoing.

I'll go along with that but enter a strong caveat about the Prince that was Promised.

Because Mel is obsessed with this battle between Light and Dark, or Ice and Fire she looks upon the Prince from that perspective and sees him as synonymous with Azor Ahai, but in fact we've never been told why the Prince has been promised.

Its probably safe to assume that the term Prince is being used in its broader sense as signifying someone of royal blood, ie; a prince of the blood rather than a definite rank or title, but why has he been promised? What is he actually intended to do?

The fact he's a prince rather than a hero or champion or warrior indicates that he's going to come and lead his people somewhere, out of the wilderness or wherever. Lost lands or inheritances often come into it. Aegon (Young Griff) is certainly a prince who was promised, raising the Targaryen banners, or leading the exiled Blackfyres home (delete as appropriate). I think its fair to conclude that whatever his actual motives Young Griff probably doesn't qualify as the Prince that was promised, but you get the idea. More likely perhaps would be a prince promised to restore the glorious Valyrian empire or something like that. The trouble is that we just don't know.

[Iceborn]

But what is royal? not the Targaryens the and definitely not the baratheons so we are left with the starks, Rob= dead Bran= greenseer Arya= no-one Rikon= just a kid. Therefore the prince is either sansa or Jon, I like the Jon theory best as Mel has uh... "ideas" for him. Sansa in my opinion is a politician being taught by littlefinger to play the game of thrones. I am thinking that as Kings of Winter the Starks have some sort of true power in their blood not just "my great-grandad to the n was a invader and beat you" this was talked about earlier something to do with WW I think.

[Black Crow]

However, I am sure you will just end up questioning that 5000 year old date as well...

8000 years fits perfectly for the Long Night.

Of course we do, and I refer you to my earlier animadversions on the nature of recorded time - and how the fact the Maesters can't agree demonstrates that there is no codex proving an 8,000 year-old timeline for Westeros. Nor have we seen 8,000 years worth of Stark tombs. We know there are lower levels in the crypts and possibly something nasty but no-one has seen tombs going back to the Bran Stark who may - or probably didn't (per than SSM) build the Wall.

In any case, as Lummel rightly declares, the actual dates don't matter beyond the fact it was all a very long time ago with no frames of reference. What does matter is the running order and the way that so much of the important stuff like the breaking of the Pact and the overthrow of the Nights King actually seems to come together in the years after the Andal conquest began, rather than an infeasible thousands of years before.

[Black Crow]

But what is royal? not the Targaryens the and definitely not the baratheons so we are left with the starks, Rob= dead Bran= greenseer Arya= no-one Rikon= just a kid. Therefore the prince is either sansa or Jon, I like the Jon theory best as Mel has uh... "ideas" for him. Sansa in my opinion is a politician being taught by littlefinger to play the game of thrones. I am thinking that as Kings of Winter the Starks have some sort of true power in their blood not just "my great-grandad to the n was a invader and beat you" this was talked about earlier something to do with WW I think.

Yes, but remember this prophecy comes from a Valyrian/Targaryen perspective. Jon's destiny increasingly looks like becoming King of Winter not Emperor of Valyria or whatever the promise relates to.

[Jojen]

I'm still wondering why Mel would encourage Jon's warging, which is not an ability connected with R'hllor. She offers to show him, but what she says next sounds an awful lot like she's simply trying to seduce him: "The Lord of Light in his wisdom made us male and female, two parts of a greater whole. In our joining there is power. Power to make life. Power to make light. Power to cast shadows."

Jon is considered a very powerful warg, but he's untrained, like Arya. Mel no doubt intended to be his teacher, but I believe he'll figure it out on his own. Mel's efforts might backfire on her, because once AA has returned, she'll only be Second Banana. She'll want to somehow keep him close and on a short leash. Imagine her surprise when he becomes the GreatJon Other instead.

ETA: I'm surprised that BR (or Bran, for that matter) didn't foresee things and tried to give Jon some pointers.

[Uncat]

Edit: This post referes to Black Crow #166

I think so, too. They are two completly unrelated prophecies. But people in the books keep linking them and thus making questionable desitions. Just as Mel and Aemmon think, that they are talking about the same thing (or at least Mel lets Aemmon deliberatly belive this). Still we can take an important fact from that conversation: If Aemmon thinks AA and PTWP refering to the same person, those two prophecies must sound quite similar: Darkness gathering, chosen one to fight it. Maybe even something with a star.

And while the legend of Azor Ahai drags Mel to the Wall, the Targyrians got to Westeros once, following a prophecy and did quite a damage since then inoder to bring it to fulfillment. And if Danny gets the news, that she is either AA (from the red priest) or TPWP (from Marvin), she will get in motion, too, just to fullfill some old word. This will drag her to the wall to and there you are, mayhem established. Wildlings, Wights and Bloodraven from one side, a lot of fire from the other and Jon cought between it. Ok, not so serious there, just blabing in oder to awoid work.

[Lykos]

I think the Targaryens have been influenced (played) by the Red Lot for centuries.

[Lummel]

It was the vision of the Doom, that caused the Targaryens to go to Dragonstone. Why they didn´t attack Westeros earlier I don´t know either...

The argument I've heard before is that the obedience to the vision or prophecy which drove them to Dragonstone also kept them there until the time was right.

But again this is one of those subjects that we don't really know anything about other than the Targaryen came to Dragonstone and no less than a hundred years or so later (but quite possibly more) they set out to conquor Westeros and succeeded.

[Lykos]

@Lummel

I thought of the theory that the Targaryens tried to take Hardhome as a foothold in Westeros and were thrown back by a mini doom, caused by the Children. So they were cautious. But staying put to fulfill the vision works with me.

@Hotweaselsoup

I think GRRM used the myth of many cultures in ASoIaF. There certainly are some similarities, I like especialy the name of the cloud snake Ashi or Ahi, which is pretty close to Asshai and Ahai, but we also find celtic, norse, roman, prebabylonian myth, and a lot of historical influences.

*****

I believe the Legend of Azor Ahai is built around the events that happened at the beginning of the Valyria ( probably 5000 years ago). And the story of him being reborn is the same as we have with King Arthur or Barbarossa or the King asleep in the mountain, he will come back, when most needed.

[The Lost Lord]

Hello heretics! I would like to draw your attention to a new interview with Martin where he very briefly discusses the Walkers:

Fans of the novels are eagerly awaiting Martin’s final two instalments of the seven-part series. In particular, they are eager to learn more about the White Walkers — or The Others — a mysterious, undead race seemingly bent on humanity’s destruction. “(We’ll learn more about their) history, certainly, but I don’t know about culture,”he said. “I don’t know if they have a culture.”

What do you all think this comment could mean?

[lokisnow]

I like the idea that AA reborn was Aegon the Conqueror and that the Prince Who was Promised refers to a Prince that will be a human sacrifice, ala Pentos.

It would be absolutely GREAT if one of the prophecies had already been fulfilled three hundred years before the events of the story... how's that for a heresy.

[Elaena Targaryen]

It isn't provided in a single quote, but Martin provided cross referenced historical data to us in two Davos chapters in Dance from Sisterton and White Harbor respectively, which will allow you to piece it together if you study it carefully. I have done so, on a previous thread. I don't have the book in front of me now, but from memory it goes something like this: <snipped for space>

Thank you very much! I appreciate you taking the time to write all of that out. I don't know why but I have been particularly interested in the Wolfs Den's history and timelines lately. I am very curious about the Greystarks, the fact they joined the Boltons in a rebellion against House Stark, and how it's implied House Stark made House Greystark extinct. One question (for anyone), do we know if Brandon Stark Ice Eyes was ever King in the North?

[Black Crow]

Hello heretics! I would like to draw your attention to a new interview with Martin where he very briefly discusses the Walkers:

“(We’ll learn more about their) history, certainly, but I don’t know about culture,”he said. “I don’t know if they have a culture.”

What do you all think this comment could mean?

Interesting, very very interesting, because it confirms that they're not a distinct race.

[Elaena Targaryen]

Hello heretics! I would like to draw your attention to a new interview with Martin where he very briefly discusses the Walkers:

What do you all think this comment could mean?

It sounds to me that the WW are possibly a creation / result / caused by/from / consenquence of / or something along those lines, whether intentional or accidental. They have a history but no culture, very interesting. I suppose I could be reading too much into it but I don't care. "I don't know if they have a culture."...I would think Martin (after I read / watched several relevant interviews) would have put a lot more thought into the WW if they are intended to be their own distinct race. (As Black Crow said above)

[Aluminum Link]

They have a history but no culture, very interesting. I suppose I could be reading too much into it but I don't care. "I don't know if they have a culture."...I would think Martin (after I read / watched several relevant interviews) would have put a lot more thought into the WW if they are intended to be their own distinct race. (As Black Crow said above)

Of course it could also just mean they don't have culture in the same way that zombies or cows don't have culture.