What is the opinion of this good forum's people regarding Theon Greyjoy?

[RoamingRonin]

He was a highborn hostage and ward. You people fixate on that that hostage part without acknowledging he was treated according to his station.

Poor Theon. Forced to do things like train with the heir of Winterfell and take part in major ceremonies like welcoming feasts. Walking along with highlords and the bloody king of the seven kingdoms himself.

by that logic Ned and robb were responsible for their own deaths, or you could trace it back further if you want, the red wedding is probably aegon the conquerers fault for invading westeros...

a person is only responsible for their own actions, not those of others, weither or not they enabled them is irrelivant.

this was a poor attempt to yet again blame things on theon that are not his fault.

I swear. If Theon ran into the street and got hit by a car, you'd blame the car.

Ned chose to trust LF. Direct cause.

No one is arguing against this. "When you play the game of thrones, you win or you die." Even Ned reflects he messed up while he's locked in his cell.

ETA: What does this have to do with anything? :lol:

[LordStoneheart]

by that logic Ned caused his own death because it was a direct cause of trusting littlefinger (you know, like theon trusted "reek")

it was also robb's fault that theon "betrayed" him because it was a direct cause of him letting him go (like theon let "reek" go)

come on... you don't even believe this yourself.

I do, actually. Because as we both know, both of those two are lacking heads now.

I swear. If Theon ran into the street and got hit by a car, you'd blame the car.

:lmao:

ETA: What does this have to do with anything? :lol:

right? It's part of the "we have to make everyone else look bad to make Theon and the IB look good" type of argument. Pretty much the only way one can make the IB look good.

[INCBlackbird]

He was a highborn hostage and ward. You people fixate on that that hostage part without acknowledging he was treated according to his station.

Poor Theon. Forced to do things like train with the heir of Winterfell and take part in major ceremonies like welcoming feasts. Walking along with highlords and the bloody king of the seven kingdoms himself.

I swear. If Theon ran into the street and got hit by a car, you'd blame the car.

No one is arguing against this. "When you play the game of thrones, you win or you die." Even Ned reflects he messed up while he's locked in his cell.

ETA: What does this have to do with anything? :lol:

I'd like to see how you felt if you were a prisoner under the threat of death... you sound like one of those people who blames shawn hornbeck for his own kidnapping and rape and say he didn't run away because he had it so good, you know he didn't have to go to school, could play all day, nevermind rape and physical abuse (before you say anything, theon suffered mental abuse, not physical, but abuse is abuse)

that would depend on the situation, was did theon not look out, did the car not look out ? either way it's a completely different thing from theon being supposedly repsonsible for ramsay's actions... that is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard...

[INCBlackbird]

I do, actually. Because as we both know, both of those two are lacking heads now.

great, then all of theon's actions are robb's fault, they are a direct result of him letting him go, so ramsay's actions are all robb's fault as well... beyond his death robb is causing hurt and suffering... woa... these kinds of arguments are old and have never made sense...

[Jon's Queen Consort]

1. he was a prisoner under threat of death, I'm not even gonna list over all th other things I've been repeating for the past few pages cause that alone should be enough to be considered abuse. and corporal punishment is abuse! (though I would not have minded if the stark kids had been treated by the same standards, because the story does not happen in the 21ste century. but if the stark children don't get punished that way, neither should theon)

2. I distinctly remember him not being at home when he was a hostage under threat of death, however, as I have stated many many times by now, I do not blame the starks, I blame the system.

So we should judge people with 21st century's standards and yet if something was different then we turn back at medieval? If we judge everything by medieval standards like it supposed to then no one mistreated or abused Theon since hostageward was a standard procedure for enemy's children.

3. except that to commit actions it actually requires you to, you know... commit actions... logic...

discrimination thoughts have no consequences whereas discrimination actions do. (which by the way, does not mean I think discrimination thoughts are ok, they are just irrelevant because we are talking about consequences (theon being disrespected for 10 years)

No. We are talking about Theon coplaining about what happened to him, people judging him because of his family, when he does the same with Jon when he judge him as an inferior because of his birth status. Something that lead us to the next question; why Theon is better than Jon and he believes that he deserves something more than Jon?

4. again, who is at fault is irrelevant, fact is, theon wasn't, which is what it's all about.

Wrong. By medieval standards it was a standard process in fact it was the best thing that the loser could expect because it was either Theon becoming a ward or die.

5. wow... gratefull... really ? when you get robbed, will you be gratefull to the robber to not kill you ? I don't think so. injustice is injustice.

When you attack someone's house the less that it could happen to you is to be taken prisoner. But yet again Balon gave Theon up.

6. it was not ok, never said it was, but I've been over this... and it is not ok because he was put in another abusive environment. stop pretending like the reason they took theon was to help him...

Never said that they took Theon to protect him, that was a collateral benefit. But yet again it was Balon who gave Theon to them.

this is theon's pov and that moment theon doesn't realise that he's being manipulated but as a reader I think it's pretty clear he's being severly manipulated here. you know the whole, "i'm gonna make you think it's your idea, but actually it's mine" (that is precicely how manipulation works)

but there's also the third reek chapter in adwd :

The fact that Theon had his uncle Victarion's IQ and was easily maniputated to do something doesn't mean that he is either innocent or less guilty than his manipulator. He did it it's his fault, he killed two innocent boys and he had to pay for that.

[Lady Flandrensis]

I pretty much hate Theon, but I don't like it that I hate him. He's had some rotten dishes served in his life. Still, he's a dick. But I should pity him now. But he was a total arse before he was taken down. It's like that. This is all GRRM's doing.

[#Turncloak]

I always liked Theon, mainly because he is this douchy guy always smiling without a reason and I started wondering why he is all f*cked up like that. In ACoK I realised why he never felt Winterfell was his home and his backstory was interesting. I felt sorry for him when they all treated him like a stranger and a weakling when he finally returned home, but I didn't like how he treated others either.

His daddy issues and the need to prove himself eventually led him to some horrible, stupid and unforgivable choices but what I found interesting about him was that he was never truly evil, he always felt bad about what he did and it haunted him, so I could never really hate him, but I thought he should die as well. He is a real grey character. His Reek chapters were some of the best in the series, and it was kind of depressing to read them. At first I thought that was what he deserved but as I read I changed my mind and wanted him to live. In my opinion, he almost atoned for all the bad things he did when he saved Jeyne. In the end, I like how morally complex he is. I'd like him to have a quick death in the end, as I can't see any possible future for him.

[LordBloodraven]

Murder.

This is getting ridiculous. Theon had Ramsay kill his own Ironborn men then blamed Farlen for it. I guess it's ok because you know, he was "kidnapped" and had all his life a noose around his neck

[LordStoneheart]

great, then all of theon's actions are robb's fault, they are a direct result of him letting him go, so ramsay's actions are all robb's fault as well... beyond his death robb is causing hurt and suffering... woa... these kinds of arguments are old and have never made sense...

Nope. the initial betrayal, yes, but the decision to go to Winterfell is all on Theon because that was never part of the Ironborn plan.

[INCBlackbird]

(1) So we should judge people with 21st century's standards and yet if something was different then we turn back at medieval? If we judge everything by medieval standards like it supposed to then no one mistreated or abused Theon since hostageward was a standard procedure for enemy's children.

(2) No. We are talking about Theon coplaining about what happened to him, people judging him because of his family, when he does the same with Jon when he judge him as an inferior because of his birth status. Something that lead us to the next question; why Theon is better than Jon and he believes that he deserves something more than Jon?

(3) Wrong. By medieval standards it was a standard process in fact it was the best thing that the loser could expect because it was either Theon becoming a ward or die.

(4) When you attack someone's house the less that it could happen to you is to be taken prisoner. But yet again Balon gave Theon up.

(5) Never said that they took Theon to protect him, that was a collateral benefit. But yet again it was Balon who gave Theon to them.

(6) The fact that Theon had his uncle Victarion's IQ and was easily maniputated to do something doesn't mean that he is either innocent or less guilty than his manipulator. He did it it's his fault, he killed two innocent boys and he had to pay for that.

1. what I said was that it clearly wasn't the standard to beat children as corporal punishment, because it didn't happen to the stark kids. and weither you judge by midieval standards what happened to theon was still abuse, and he still suffered from it.

2. difference is that people in winterfell acted on those judgements (hense, people knows about it...), while theon did not!

3. standard process or not, theon suffered from it and he was not guilty of anything.

4. Balon was the one to attack, not theon. theon is an innocent and not to be blamed or punished for it.

5. how many times have we been over this ? it is irrelevant who's fault it was that theon became a hostage. fact is that it wasn't theon's fault, hense, he's an innocent victim who does not deserve what happened to him in and has no reason to be in any way greatfull to the starks.

6. LOL at total lack of understanding of the character! theon had no lack of IQ (remember how he took winterfell with less then 30 men because he was clever), he lacked self confidense. and he should be held responsible but there's a difference between being manipulated into doing something and it being your own idea. fact is, if it weren't for ramsay, it wouldn't have happened.

[INCBlackbird]

Nope. the initial betrayal, yes, but the decision to go to Winterfell is all on Theon because that was never part of the Ironborn plan.

so when it's theon who makes the decision to go to winterfell it's all on him. but when it's ramsay who makes the decision to burn down winterfell and take it's inhabitants (including theon) captive, it's all on theon. I smell double standards.

[RoamingRonin]

I'd like to see how you felt if you were a prisoner under the threat of death... you sound like one of those people who blames shawn hornbeck for his own kidnapping and rape and say he didn't run away because he had it so good, you know he didn't have to go to school, could play all day, nevermind rape and physical abuse (before you say anything, theon suffered mental abuse, not physical, but abuse is abuse)

that would depend on the situation, was did theon not look out, did the car not look out ? either way it's a completely different thing from theon being supposedly repsonsible for ramsay's actions... that is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard...

Don't use my opinions here to try to figure out how I feel about real world topics. I find that to be incredibly offensive and, well, stupid. These books aren't real but Shawn Hornbeck is a real person and suffered real abuses.

And don't try to make me out to be a bad person. That's a very lame way to try and win an argument. "I'm right because you're a bad person if you feel that way!"

I understand Theon grew up not feeling particularly loved or wanted and perhaps he felt some fear and that's not his fault. I get that. But he wasn't tortured or neglected. He was treated well and looks back fondly on his time at Winterfell.

What's worse is that the one person at Winterfell that did love Theon, that thought of Theon as a brother... Theon stabbed him in the back. They were supposed to be brothers.

I actually thought Ned's prayers in book 5 about were about Theon and Robb. You know, where he says "let them grow up as brothers" or something like that.

I made this observation in a R+L=J thread and the skin hasn't grown back yet.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

1. what I said was that it clearly wasn't the standard to beat children as corporal punishment, because it didn't happen to the stark kids. and weither you judge by midieval standards what happened to theon was still abuse, and he still suffered from it.

Where it was mentioned that it haven't happened to Jon or the Starks?

2. difference is that people in winterfell acted on those judgements (hense, people knows about it...), while theon did not!

We don't know that. We don't know either how the people treated him and I don't mean the fact that there were cold to him or how Theon had treated Jon.

3. standard process or not, theon suffered from it and he was not guilty of anything.

Again according to Medieval standards he was lucky not to be killed.

4. Balon was the one to attack, not theon. theon is an innocent and not to be blamed or punished for it.

Again Medieval standards.

5. how many times have we been over this ? it is irrelevant who's fault it was that theon became a hostage. fact is that it wasn't theon's fault, hense, he's an innocent victim who does not deserve what happened to him in and has no reason to be in any way greatfull to the starks.

Miller's sons were innocent too yet he killed them.

6. LOL at total lack of understanding of the character! theon had no lack of IQ (remember how he took winterfell with less then 30 men because he was clever), he lacked self confidense. and he should be held responsible but there's a difference between being manipulated into doing something and it being your own idea. fact is, if it weren't for ramsay, it wouldn't have happened.

He killed two innocent children. Either he is a child murderer or he was a dumb child murderer who was easily manipulated. Which one?

Again you forget the most important thing of them all; It was Balon who gave him up, it wasn't Ned who sneaked in Pyke and secretly took Theon. Balon gave Theon to Ned so whatever happened to him was because of Balon.

[INCBlackbird]

Don't use my opinions here to try to figure out how I feel about real world topics. I find that to be incredibly offensive and, well, stupid. These books aren't real but Shawn Hornbeck is a real person and suffered real abuses.

And don't try to make me out to be a bad person. That's a very lame way to try and win an argument. "I'm right because you're a bad person if you feel that way!"

I understand Theon grew up not feeling particularly loved or wanted and perhaps he felt some fear and that's not his fault. I get that. But he wasn't tortured or neglected. He was treated well and looks back fondly on his time at Winterfell.

What's worse is that the one person at Winterfell that did love Theon, that thought of Theon as a brother... Theon stabbed him in the back. They were supposed to be brothers.

I actually thought Ned's prayers in book 5 about were about Theon and Robb. You know, where he says "let them grow up as brothers" or something like that.

I made this observation in a R+L=J thread and the skin hasn't grown back yet.

weither a person is real or not, theon was written as a real person, with real feelings, so the situation he was in had just as much consequences on him as it would have on a real person.

i'm not trying to make you out to be a bad person, i'm comparing situations. i'm pointing out that it's not because theon had food, shelter and an education that he had it good. he was a hostage under the threat of death that should be enough to be considered a horrible situation (especially when talking about an innocent child)

I consider living 10 years under the threat of death to be psychological torture (though, I don't blame the starks for this, I blame the system) and yes he was neglected.

theon didn't really have a choice when it came to betraying robb. though, I do agree that he betrayed him and it was horrible for robb, but it was equally horrible for theon. the moment he was shipped off to the iron islands it was over, he was stuck there (couldn't go back to robb, and even if he could have the north would have demanded him to be executed because his father would have still invaded), in westeros you do not betray your family! he would have been shunned even more (if his family hadn't "accidentally" killed him ) and he still wouldn't have had the acceptance he so craved. yes, he shouldn't have taken winterfell. I mean... I get why he did, it I could list the reasons again. but it still wouldn't be right, but all of that doesn't take away from the fact that theon suffered a whole lot (something people seem to forget) and he is a product of both how his family treated him before winterfell and how the starks treated him (albeit accordingly) in winterfell. and he didn't deserve any of it.

I would have to dissagree on this. though I have no real textual evidense for this but I always assumed that Ned and Cat didn't want their children to get attached to theon (understandable considering the fact they might have to kill him one day) and they told robb as much, he just didn't listen (bless him tbh!) which is why Robb tends to get annoyed when people question his decisions in taking theon's councel serious. because he hears it a lot and at some point he's just like, "stop it"

[Grail King]

I feel for Theon, the kid just wanted a family but once he met his father and saw how he was he chose wrongly; just like Ned, Robb, Tyrion etc.

But Theon should be sacrificed at the Heart Tree in WOW just because he killed many people and let 2 innocent children be murdered at least one may be his.

[Lord Reaver]

This is getting ridiculous. Theon had Ramsay kill his own Ironborn men then blamed Farlen for it. I guess it's ok because you know, he was "kidnapped" and had all his life a noose around his neck

Theon was lord of Winterfell, it was his right to judge guilty or not. He did. You cannot fault him for following the law any more than you can fault Ned for following the law and taking him hostage.

Again, you don't get to cherry pick moral relativism or absolutism. Pick one or the other and stick with it.

If you want to blame Theon for Farlen, that's fine. Just make sure you also blame Ned for taking Theon.