Rhaegar Targaryen: Early passion for the Lord of Light, Foul Play at Harrenhal, The Spearwife Princess

[brashcandy]

Bran! The quote you provided from Robert about Rhaegar is really interesting :) I wonder if there's any signficance about Robert talking about Rhaegar's "black" heart. Probably just an expression of how much he hates the man, I guess. Anyways, here's the passage when Robert is in Winterfell visiting Lyanna's crypt:

The King touched her cheek, his fingers brushing across the rough stone as gently as if it were living flesh. "I vowed to kill Rhaegar for what he did to her."

"You did," Ned reminded him.

"Only once," Robert said bitterly.

They had come together at the ford of the Trident while the battle crashed around them, Robert with his warhammer and his great antlered helm, the Targaryen prince armored all in black. On his breastplate was the three headed dragon of his house, wrought all in rubies that flashed like fire in the sunlight. The waters of the Trident ran red around the hooves of their destriers as they circled and clashed, again and again, until at last a crushing blow from Robert's hammer stove in the dragon and the chest beneath it. When Ned had finally come on the scene, Rhaegar lay dead in the stream, while men of both armies scrabbled in the swirling waters, for rubies knocked free of his armor.

"In my dreams, I kill him every night," Robert admitted. "A thousand deaths will still be less than he deserves."

A few points:

- The battle went on for a very long time; perhaps Rhaegar had expected to be able to finish off Robert quickly and over the long duration of the fighting his glamour slowly weakened. We know via Melisandre when she enacts the glamour on Rattleshirt to spare Mance's life, that it physically drains the person performing the glamour. Imagine trying to do so whilst fighting a fierce warrior at the same time.

- Robert's lack of satisfaction over Rhaegar's death - Robert obviously hated the man very much, but his constant dreams of Rhaegar dying, and thinking that a thousand deaths will never be enough could also suggest that he senses on some level that he should have killed Rhaegar a lot of times on the trident, but somehow the man kept evading his blows, or the blows didn't have any effect (this comes back to your quote).

- What finally killed Rhaegar was the blow from Robert's warhammer directly onto the rubies. Coincidence?

[Elaena Targaryen]

@Brashcandy I was wondering about the "black heart" thing too. I know this may be too literal but it's interesting anyway...

Drogon

… and folded. The dragon gave one last

hiss and stretched out flat upon his belly. Black blood was flowing from the wound where the spear had pierced him, smoking where it dripped onto the scorched sands. He is fire made flesh, she thought, and so am I. Daenerys Targaryen vaulted onto the dragon’s back, seized the

spear, and ripped it out.

Mel

The red priestess shuddered. Blood trickled down her thigh, black and smoking. The fire was

inside her, an agony, an ecstasy, filling her, searing her, transforming her.

If you have black blood then I would think your heart was black. Also if Robert saw Rhaegar had black blood from his wounds during their battle then refering to him with a black heart would fit as well. I know it's probably meant as symbolic but this is a magical world with dragons, people with black blood, people with purple and red eyes, and so on. That statement just made me think of these things but I'm sure I'm reading too much into it. :shrug:

[Armstark]

But would that really be a glamour with Rhaegars rubies? I think it would be some kind of different magic. It doesnt change his appearance but rather deflects blows to the body. We have an example for a ruby being used for other magic than a glamour. Melisandre apparently uses it to withstand the poison given to her by Cressen in the prologue of ACOK.

[brashcandy]

@Brashcandy I was wondering about the "black heart" thing too. I know this may be too literal but it's interesting anyway...

Drogon

Mel

If you have black blood then I would think your heart was black. Also if Robert saw Rhaegar had black blood from his wounds during their battle then refering to him with a black heart would fit as well. I know it's probably meant as symbolic but this is a magical world with dragons, people with black blood, people with purple and red eyes, and so on. That statement just made me think of these things but I'm sure I'm reading too much into it. :shrug:

Oh those are great findings Elaena! And part of this whole theory is to read too much into things, I guess :)

But would that really be a glamour with Rhaegars rubies? I think it would be some kind of different magic. It doesnt change his appearance but rather deflects blows to the body. We have an example for a ruby being used for other magic than a glamour. Melisandre apparently uses it to withstand the poison given to her by Cressen in the prologue of ACOK.

True, but I use glamour as a kind of layman's term, implying a trick of some sort using the rubies.

[Elaena Targaryen]

But would that really be a glamour with Rhaegars rubies? I think it would be some kind of different magic. It doesnt change his appearance but rather deflects blows to the body. We have an example for a ruby being used for other magic than a glamour. Melisandre apparently uses it to withstand the poison given to her by Cressen in the prologue of ACOK.

Spoiler for the The Mystery Night...

We also have a different jem being used for a glamour in The Mystery Knight. Ser Maynard Plumm was wearing a huge moonstone brooch the entire story and we all suspect it was Lord Bloodraven using a glamour.

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

I also thought of a connection the first time I read Aerion's armor/livery description in hedge knight... but I think that was more to do with his insanity and belief he was a dragon in human form.

I had thought of a potential connection between them that was somewhat different... the red lot have an undeniable affinity for flame & heat... much of their 'magic' involves such. We know that Dany is highly resistant to flame/heat... a passage in D & E Sworn Sword reads that Dunk bit his tongue to not cry out from the hot water in his bath.... he knew that Egg prefers his bath water scalding hot and didn't want to seem weak. That was the first clue that Dany would be the 'unburnt'.

My theory is:

The Targs are said to be either great or crazy. I think that with the 'greatness' comes the fire immunity, and with the madness comes no such immunity. (Viserys, Aerion, others)

There is either a connection between the unburnt targs & the Red priests that we are unaware of, or there shall be some such connection in the future.

[TheWanderer]

On the subject of Rheagar's tourney colours:

Rheagar wears black armour. Black is definitely a Targaryean colour.

His horse wears gold. Gold is not a Targ colour but it is commonly indicative of royalty.

Interestingly (or not) these colours together represent the Baratheons.

He has streamers from his helm that evoke flames. These colours do match up with R'hollor and the Martells but the image also matches up with dragons (fire) and thus the Targaryean's.

So basically the streamers (a small part of his overall armour) most likely are supposed to evoke the image of fire and dragons, rather than being a hint at different religious practices.

On the subject of Lyanna's kidnapping:

The cultural practice of kidnapping a woman is purely a wildling one, and is likely not looked upon favorably by the Northmen (as their only experience with it would be wildlings abducting their daughters and sisters). Bastards are looked down upon across the breadth of the Seven Kingdoms (and beyond) so the North's dislike of them is to be expected.

It seems to me that Rheagar was loosing it towards the end of his life hence the highly illogical, and risky, kidnapping of Lyanna. He becomes increasingly preoccupied with prophecies and his place in them. We have seen this behaviour in the Targaryean's in the past and it always ends in insanity and disaster, why should Rheagar be any different.

So Valyrian's did / does have sorcery to protect and Ser Barristan knew exactly what it was meant for / to be. This could be only one way to practise this spell or whatever it is.

Given that the man calls himself Steelskin, I would think he'd have made it pretty clear what those runes were supposed to do.

[csm]

I don't believe in the Rhollor love theory just because of the colors he wore.

[Bran Vras]

I think Rhaegar's rubies could be connected to other rubies. Here is Aegon being prepared to meet the Golden Company.

At his throat he wore three huge square-cut rubies on a chain of black iron, a gift from Magister Illyrio.

Varys was already in King's Landing during the reign of Aerys. Thus, Illyrio and Varys could have provided the rubies and the magic which comes with them.

Here is how I described the meeting with the Golden Company in another thread. Judge for yourself if Young Griff's persuasiveness was natural.

Recall that Young Griff' and Connington arrive in a tense atmosphere. Griff feels they are not welcome. Aegon sixth of the name is greeted with silence. The discussion does not begin well for him. Amazingly quickly Young Griff wins every officer of the company to his plan (the more resistant Harry Strickland joined late). He must have looked very charismatic to the sellswords.

Here is what Young Griff said (note that Griff is dubitative)

And then Prince Aegon spoke. “Then put your hopes on me,” he said. “Daenerys is Prince Rhaegar’s sister, but I am Rhaegar’s son. I am the only dragon that you need.”Griff put a black-gloved hand upon Prince Aegon’s shoulder. “Spoken boldly,” he said, “but think what you are saying.”

Here is Tristan Rivers before Young Griff spoke

Tristan Rivers drummed his fingers on his knee. “All the more reason that we must reach her quickly, I say. If Daenerys will not come to us,

we must go to Daenerys.”

and after

“Which plan?” said Tristan Rivers. “The fat man’s plan? The one that changes every time the moon turns? First Viserys Targaryen was to join us with fifty thousand Dothraki

screamers at his back. Then the Beggar King was dead, and it was to be the sister, a pliable young child queen who was on her way to Pentos with three new-hatched dragons. Instead the girl turns up on Slaver’s Bay and leaves a string of burning cities in her wake, and the fat man decides we should meet her by Volantis. Now that plan is in ruins as well.

“I have had enough of Illyrio’s plans. Robert Baratheon won the Iron Throne without the benefit of dragons. We can do the same. And if I am wrong and the realm does not rise for us, we can always retreat back across the narrow sea, as Bittersteel once did, and others after him.”

Franklyn Flowers before

“There is the land route [to Meereen],” suggested Franklyn Flowers.

and after

Franklyn Flowers laughed. “I like it. Sail west, not east. Leave the little queen to her olives and seat Prince Aegon upon the Iron Throne. The boy has stones, give him that.”

Finally Griff.

When all of them began to speak at once, Griff knew the tide had turned. This is a side of Aegon I never saw before.

[Uncat]

There's nothing to be suspicious of. When Rhaegar was only a child he trained as a warrior for years. And from the descriptions we are given of him "he would perfect anything he put his mind to".

Since we know Rhaegar was obsessed with the Azor Ahai/TPTWP prophecy, there's no doubt he would perfect the way of the warrior in order to prepare for The Others. What I'm trying to say is there's no doubt be Rhaegar was a pure warrior.

And as we know from Joram Mormont, it can happen, that a good but not formidable Knight has a run and wins the day even against much better fighters.

[brashcandy]

Very interesting finds, Bran Vras. I'm willing to bet that Aegon wore those rubies into battle at Storm's end, and perhaps we'll hear that no swords could touch him there either. If Varys is in on the plot with the rubies, it explains the extent of his confidence that he displays to Kevan in the Epilogue. Could this also be why Illyrio had no problem giving Dany the three dragon eggs? Because he was keeping something much more priceless in store for Aegon? Of course this is working on the assumption that Illyrio had no idea those eggs would hatch.

[koststerg]

I like very much the idea of a rigged turnament at Lanisport but Rhaegar at Harenhal is older, more experienced at fighting and at the prime of his strength. I am not saying he was a sure bet or the best bet but that it could happen with a little luck and motivation. Also if magic was involved I think Reed would have picked it up and would have mentioned something in his allegorical description to his children.

The line about "nothing could hit him" might imply something more but that would mean that in the Trident Robert defeated Reagar's magic without even understanding it because there is no chance that Robert would find out that he was using magic, then win Reagar's magic and not boast about this victory or not accuse Reagar as coward to everybody for using magic in a fight.

On the other subject of Rhollor i like the idea of having an influence on Reagar but i think the Targs' attitute toward religions is close to that of Romans (= every religion is ok if they accept the devine nature of the emperor) and their main reason for believing that they are special is the PTWP story. The AA prophecy is i think older and more vage in its description than the PTWP and so it could not have more influence in Reagar than his own family legacy.

[TheWanderer]

I think Rhaegar's rubies could be connected to other rubies.

Rubies are red. The Targaryen dragon is red. The Targaryen's are rich. Ergo, several Targaryen's wear rubies. There really is no need to get all massively crackpot on this.

Magic is generally limited in Westeros, both in the number of people who can use it and what it can do, and was even more limited pre-dragons. The idea that Rheagar could make a magical-immunity-suit with some rubies is pretty ridiculous. The idea that he would require them to win a tourney is also pretty silly.

[brashcandy]

Rubies are red. The Targaryen dragon is red. The Targaryen's are rich. Ergo, several Targaryen's wear rubies. There really is no need to get all massively crackpot on this.

Magic is generally limited in Westeros, both in the number of people who can use it and what it can do, and was even more limited pre-dragons. The idea that Rheagar could make a magical-immunity-suit with some rubies is pretty ridiculous. The idea that he would require them to win a tourney is also pretty silly.

Sigh... I would hope you can base your argument on something more than "silly" and "rich people have rubies". The idea isn't silly at all when you consider that Rhaegar became obsessed with the PTWP prophecy, and was probably trying to do everything to ensure its fulfillment. Therefore, winning the tourney was vital to being able to impress Lyanna, and to crown her as Queen of love and beauty. Rhaegar wasn't simply playing gallant, he was making deliberate moves to secure the woman he wanted, IMO. As for the rubies, there's been substantial evidence that links them to deception and Red magic.

[Bran Vras]

Very interesting finds, Bran Vras. I'm willing to bet that Aegon wore those rubies into battle at Storm's end, and perhaps we'll hear that no swords could touch him there either. If Varys is in on the plot with the rubies, it explains the extent of his confidence that he displays to Kevan in the Epilogue.

Interestingly, it is announced that Storm's End will be taken by "guile" and that Aegon intends to lead.

I like very much the idea of a rigged turnament at Lanisport but Rhaegar at Harenhal is older, more experienced at fighting and at the prime of his strength. I am not saying he was a sure bet or the best bet but that it could happen with a little luck and motivation. Also if magic was involved I think Reed would have picked it up and would have mentioned something in his allegorical description to his children.

The line about "nothing could hit him" might imply something more but that would mean that in the Trident Robert defeated Reagar's magic without even understanding it because there is no chance that Robert would find out that he was using magic, then win Reagar's magic and not boast about this victory or not accuse Reagar as coward to everybody for using magic in a fight.

It's interesting to go back to Howland Reed's story. I just reread it. The power of the old gods is evident in the way Meera's account. The crannogman just came from the Isle of Faces. The knight has a weirwood on his shield. Meera says of the knight.

"Whoever he was, the old gods gave strength to his arm."

and

And so the little crannogman’s prayer was answered . . . by the green men, or the old gods, or the children of the forest, who can say?

But the most interesting part comes later:

The king was wroth, and even sent his son the dragon prince to seek the man, but all they ever found was his painted shield, hanging abandoned in a tree.

On these boards, some have speculated, very reasonably, that Rhaegar came across Lyanna during the search, perhaps near the tree. (I have no strong opinion on the identity of the knight, though.) Indeed there is no indication that Rhaegar and Lyanna have met before. We just know that, in a large feast at the beginning of the tournament,

The dragon prince sang a song so sad it made the wolf maid sniffle [...]

The comparison with Roose Bolton's story with Ramsay's mother is perhaps instructive:

I was hunting a fox along the Weeping Water when I chanced upon a mill and saw a young woman washing clothes in the stream. The old miller had gotten himself a new young wife, a girl not half his age. She was a tall, willowy creature, very healthy-looking. Long legs and small firm breasts, like two ripe plums. Pretty, in a common sort of way. The moment that I set eyes on her I wanted her.[...]. [I] claimed my rights beneath the tree [...] The fox escaped as well [...]

The pattern is the same: First the man is in pursuit of some being (One could even see the fox and the knight as agents guiding the man. That would be alike classic fairy tales. A more far fetched interpretation would be that the agent has been sent by the woman and/or by the Old Gods.). Then he finds the woman by accident. And finally he is smitten. (Near a tree in both cases as it happens.) Whether Rhaegar and Lyanna consummated their love in Harrenhal is not clear. If they did, the laws of the Old Gods seem to demand that the man takes the woman as wife and provides for the eventual child. The story did not end well for Roose, who rejected the woman and let Ramsay live accursed.

On the other subject of Rhollor i like the idea of having an influence on Reagar but i think the Targs' attitute toward religions is close to that of Romans (= every religion is ok if they accept the devine nature of the emperor) and their main reason for believing that they are special is the PTWP story. The AA prophecy is i think older and more vage in its description than the PTWP and so it could not have more influence in Reagar than his own family legacy.

I agree about the Targaryen's attitude toward religion in general. But every individual Targaryen could have personal interests: Baelor was a devout, Bloodraven a sorcerer, Aerys persuaded to be a dragon etc. Rhaegar was bookish and original. To use your Roman Empire analogy, you might compare to Constantine who converted to Christianity, or other Roman emperors with an interest in eastern cults. The Targaryens came from across the Narrow Sea where the Azor Ahai story is apparently well known (see for instance Salladhor San). So the cult of R'hllor was not as alien to them as it was to the rest of the Seven Kingdoms.

[dreamcatcher]

I always thought that Rhaegar's rubies have some kind of significance, but I thought they'd be important in the future.... However, I really like the theory that Rhaegar was glamoured.

[TheWanderer]

Sigh... I would hope you can base your argument on something more than "silly" and "rich people have rubies".

Occam's razor. Further, as my argument is that what happened was exactly what we are told happened, I don't really have to base it on anything (other than the statements in the books). You are arguing that magic (magic that to this point has not been seen elsewhere) was used. You are going to have to better (to convince me) than point out that Mel wears an apparently magical ruby and uses one for a glamour (which is different from what you're suggesting).

The idea isn't silly at all when you consider that Rhaegar became obsessed with the PTWP prophecy, and was probably trying to do everything to ensure its fulfillment.

Right, which is why he devoted himself towards becoming the greatest knight he could. We know that he did this, we have no evidence that he pursued magical knowledge or had any talent with using it.

Therefore, winning the tourney was vital to being able to impress Lyanna, and to crown her as Queen of love and beauty. Rhaegar wasn't simply playing gallant, he was making deliberate moves to secure the woman he wanted, IMO.

Kidnappers don't need to impress or secure the woman. Now it's possible that Lyanna went willingly but we really have no idea what their relationship was, or how it formed. Either way, it seems to me that Rheagar didn't really need to win that tourney in order to get her (if she was willing than I hardly see how one tourney would be enough to make a major difference in her opinion). And Rheagar seems to have been a pretty self-confident guy, if he truly believed himself to be AA then why would he doubt that he would win that tourney.

As for the rubies, there's been substantial evidence that links them to deception and Red magic.

I disagree. Mel has two rubies which may be magical =/= all rubies are magical to me.

[brashcandy]

Occam's razor. Further, as my argument is that what happened was exactly what we are told happened, I don't really have to base it on anything (other than the statements in the books). You are arguing that magic (magic that to this point has not been seen elsewhere) was used. You are going to have to better (to convince me) than point out that Mel wears an apparently magical ruby and uses one for a glamour (which is different from what you're suggesting).

We're approaching this from two very different positions then, and unless you're openminded about the possibility that what happened was not what was told in the books, then I can see little point in the debate.

Right, which is why he devoted himself towards becoming the greatest knight he could. We know that he did this, we have no evidence that he pursued magical knowledge or had any talent with using it.

As the OP noted, Barristan is curiously unwilling to lavish praise on Rhaegar and one wonders why this would be given that Rhaegar is was the kind of prince most people find it easy to praise. The clues are subtle, but Rhaegar becoming such a skilled tourney fighter after starting much later in life is suspicious. Given that we know he's remarkably well read and obsessed with AA/PTWP, it's certain that the Red Religion formed a great part of his study. Rubies have been linked to deception, not simply through Melisandre.

Kidnappers don't need to impress or secure the woman. Now it's possible that Lyanna went willingly but we really have no idea what their relationship was, or how it formed. Either way, it seems to me that Rheagar didn't really need to win that tourney in order to get her (if she was willing than I hardly see how one tourney would be enough to make a major difference in her opinion). And Rheagar seems to have been a pretty self-confident guy, if he truly believed himself to be AA then why would he doubt that he would win that tourney.

He may have been self confident, but he's also someone who doesn't leave anything to chance and he was going up against the most famed knights in the land like Arthur Dayne. When he learnt that he had to become a warrior, that's what he started to do immediately. Maybe Rhaegar didn't need to win the tournament to get to her, but maybe in his mind he did. Or maybe there's something more behind this elaborate show of crowning Lyanna love and beauty. After all, we could argue that he didn't need to do so to kidnap her either.

I disagree. Mel has two rubies which may be magical =/= all rubies are magical to me.

That was never the intention. By nature this is a speculative thread, but there are provocative hints in the text that Rhaegar's rubies might have been used for more than mere decoration.

[Lady Octarina]

As the OP noted, Barristan is curiously unwilling to lavish praise on Rhaegar and one wonders why this would be given that Rhaegar is was the kind of prince most people find it easy to praise. The clues are subtle, but Rhaegar becoming such a skilled tourney fighter after starting much later in life is suspicious. Given that we know he's remarkably well read and obsessed with AA/PTWP, it's certain that the Red Religion formed a great part of his study. Rubies have been linked to deception, not simply through Melisandre.

What I find really odd is that Barristan is the only person who ever puts any doubts in Rhaegar's abilities as a knight. It's funny, really, that the only times great Rhaegar is criticize at all is by Robert, who has obvious reasons to hate him, and Barristan. The impression I got from Barristan's chapters in ADWD was that he simply resented the prince for defeating him, and, by doing so, ruining all possibilities Barristan saw of declaring his admiration for Ashara in a non-compromising way. Also, it's aways possible that Barristan felt cheated simply for being defeated by a kid 10 years (15? 20?) younger than him and who had only started training late in life, as many pointed out. He's a knight of the Kingsguard, supposed to be one of the best in the Seven Kingdoms; it's only natural a certain amount of wounded pride was guiding his feelings here.

Okay, crackpot: there could be another explanation for Barristan's controversial feelings on losing to Rhaegar. What if Aerys ordered his KG to lose? It's as good an explanation for Rhaegar's victories at Harrenhall against two of the most accomplished KG as enchanted rubies or hard training and desire to win to crown Lyanna ;)

[CloudFlare]

Okay, crackpot: there could be another explanation for Barristan's controversial feelings on losing to Rhaegar. What if Aerys ordered his KG to lose? It's as good an explanation for Rhaegar's victories at Harrenhall against two of the most accomplished KG as enchanted rubies or hard training and desire to win to crown Lyanna ;)

That's not all that crackpot. Cersei was going to tell Ser Loras to lose to one of the Kettleblacks, and she's got the same mental troubles as the Mad King.

ETA: If Aerys did order Arthur Dayne and Barristan to take a dive, why? Barristan seems to be the most highly regarded and honorable knight of the KG. Dayne was regarded as honorable as well. Maybe they were becoming uneasy with Aerys' increasing madness?