Rhaegar Targaryen: Early passion for the Lord of Light, Foul Play at Harrenhal, The Spearwife Princess

[Bran Vras]

What I find really odd is that Barristan is the only person who ever puts any doubts in Rhaegar's abilities as a knight. It's funny, really, that the only times great Rhaegar is criticize at all is by Robert, who has obvious reasons to hate him, and Barristan. The impression I got from Barristan's chapters in ADWD was that he simply resented the prince for defeating him, and, by doing so, ruining all possibilities Barristan saw of declaring his admiration for Ashara in a non-compromising way. Also, it's aways possible that Barristan felt cheated simply for being defeated by a kid 10 years (15? 20?) younger than him and who had only started training late in life, as many pointed out. He's a knight of the Kingsguard, supposed to be one of the best in the Seven Kingdoms; it's only natural a certain amount of wounded pride was guiding his feelings here.

Okay, crackpot: there could be another explanation for Barristan's controversial feelings on losing to Rhaegar. What if Aerys ordered his KG to lose? It's as good an explanation for Rhaegar's victories at Harrenhall against two of the most accomplished KG as enchanted rubies or hard training and desire to win to crown Lyanna ;)

That's not all that crackpot. Cersei was going to tell Ser Loras to lose to one of the Kettleblacks, and she's got the same mental troubles as the Mad King.

ETA: If Aerys did order Arthur Dayne and Barristan to take a dive, why? Barristan seems to be the most highly regarded and honorable knight of the KG. Dayne was regarded as honorable as well. Maybe they were becoming uneasy with Aerys' increasing madness?

I have two objections about this suggestion.

1) Aerys did not seem to trust Rhaegar. The relationship between father and son was not simple apparently. I am not sure what to make of it.

2) The recollection by Barristan indicates that he really intended to crown Ashara Dayne Queen of love and beauty, and Barristan was apparently no less motivated to win than Rhaegar. Maybe he has some resentment, but that doesn't show in the recollection.

But it's possible that Arthur Dayne let his friend Rhaegar win, even without orders form Aerys. A passage in bold below might give support to the notion.

The Prince of Dragonstone had never trusted him as he had trusted Arthur Dayne. Harrenhal was proof of that. The year of the false spring.

The memory was still bitter. Old Lord Whent had announced the tourney shortly after a visit from his brother, Ser Oswell Whent of the Kingsguard. With Varys whispering in his ear, King Aerys became convinced that his son was conspiring to depose him, that Whent’s tourney was but a ploy to give Rhaegar a pretext for meeting with as many great lords as could be brought together. Aerys had not set foot outside the Red Keep since Duskendale, yet suddenly he announced that he would accompany Prince Rhaegar to Harrenhal, and everything had gone awry from there.

If I had been a better knight ... if I had unhorsed the prince in that last tilt, as I unhorsed so many others, it would have been for me to choose the queen of love and beauty ...

Rhaegar had chosen Lyanna Stark of Winterfell. Barristan Selmy would have made a different choice. Not the queen, who was not present. Nor Elia of Dorne, though she was good and gentle; had she been chosen, much war and woe might have been avoided. His choice would have been a young maiden not long at court, one of Elia’s companions ... though compared to Ashara Dayne, the Dornish princess was a kitchen drab.

Even after all these years, Ser Barristan could still recall Ashara’s smile, the sound of her laughter. He had only to close his eyes to see her, with her long dark hair tumbling about her shoulders and those haunting purple eyes. Daenerys has the same eyes. Sometimes when the queen looked at him, he felt as if he were looking at Ashara’s daughter ...

But Ashara’s daughter had been stillborn, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well. She died never knowing that Ser Barristan had loved her. How could she? He was a knight of the Kingsguard, sworn to celibacy. No good could have come from telling her his feelings. No good came from silence either. If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark?

He would never know. But of all his failures, none haunted Barristan Selmy so much as that.

[Lady Octarina]

That's not all that crackpot. Cersei was going to tell Ser Loras to lose to one of the Kettleblacks, and she's got the same mental troubles as the Mad King.

ETA: If Aerys did order Arthur Dayne and Barristan to take a dive, why? Barristan seems to be the most highly regarded and honorable knight of the KG. Dayne was regarded as honorable as well. Maybe they were becoming uneasy with Aerys' increasing madness?

If a king who was clearly going mad and possibly already had an obsession with fire asked me something as simple as falling from my horse during a joust to allow his son to win, well... I'd probably obey him :P

Seriously, though, the explanation could be as simple as the KG are worn to obey the king. Wasn't that Meryn Trant's justification for his part on humiliating poor Sansa, that Joffrey ordered him to beat her and so on?

I have two objections about this suggestion.

1) Aerys did not seem to trust Rhaegar. The relationship between father and son was not simple apparently. I am not sure what to make of it.

But he was still his blood, his heir. I see their relationship during those last years as something similar to Tywin's with Tyrion - Tywin actually hated his son, but he still chose him to be the Hand of the King in his place while he was fighting the war. As much as their relationship was strained, I simply don't see Aerys wishing to see his son posing as a poor warrior in the tournament, for that would make Aerys himself seem weaker (or maybe I just watched too much Merlin and now see Aerys and the Westerosi Uther =P). And I disagree with you, I did feel some resentment from Barristan during his recollections of Harrenhall.

But well, the main part of my post was the first, that Barristan's dubious recollection of Rhaegar could be originated from some kind of resentment. The part about Aerys' orders was simply something that came to mind as a possible alternative to enchanted rubies ^.~

[Clueless Northman]

If relationships between Aerys and Rhaegar were bad, it's quite possible Aerys, for once, wasn't totally insane. I mean, he probably was pissed off that he "kidnapped" Lyanna and caused so much trouble, even if he hadn't any trouble burning her relatives instead of freeing her.

And Rhaegar basically told Jaime, right before the Trident, that he intended to act as a kind of Regent for his demented father when he would come back. Aerys just suspected as much a few months earlier. It's also probable that the KG Rhaegar trusted the most were those he sent at the Tower of Joy - all of whom having possibly a planned role during the removal of Aerys, unlike Jaime and Barristan, whom Rhaegar trusted a bit less.

Which of course makes for an interesting twist about Ned's father "southern ambitions", and all the talk about lords plotting to overthrow the Targaryens. Could it be that the original plan was Rhaegar wanting their support to remove his dad from power, with things taking a wholly different and dangerous turn when Rhaegar met Lyanna as the mystery knight and understood she was some kind of she-wolf that would be helpful for his goal of bringing the Prince that was promised to Westeros.

Of course, there's also Varys' role. Was he working to overthrow the Targs by feeding Aerys' madness? After all, he advised him not to trust Tywin and not to let the Lannisters enter King's Landing.

Was he working to avoid the potential trouble of a (soft) palace coup by Rhaegar?

[brut]

Nothing in what I have read (and, certainly, I might have missed some intimate details) about the ruby glamour suggests that its wearer may acquire some form of super-human (as in enhancing, making someone stronger, more agile, etc) qualities. It seems the only reference that we have of a confirmed ruby glamour is Mance. In this case, glamour is the synonym of deceit in appearance, and only that. Even in case of Mel – that is if she is glamoured at all – ascribing her some enhanced magic abilities just because of the ruby that she is wearing, might be misleading. My personal belief is that Mel’s glamour is also of the more appearance-altering nature (as in the case of her being ancient, wrinkled, ugly, or, well, dead, and wanting to look ever so young).

Description of glamour as one of the weak ways of transforming ones appearance is also confirmed by the FM, who regard it as somewhat better option to the mummers tricks. So, allowing for anything more than that, may not be readily supported by the text.

I also seem to remember an episode describing a knight in the Hand’s Tourney sporting his ancient family runes on the armor as ways of magical protection. Same knight failing the first tilt. And if one draws parallels with the D&E stories, they may conclude that by far, one of the surest ways of altering the tourney results is to be financially interested in certain outcomes (bribe knights, hire knights, rig drawings, etc) as opposed to the others.

And if the same conclusions are extrapolated in reference to Rhaegar, it seems that his particular success at Harrenhall could be much more plausibly attributed to either his own superior skills, or certain materialistic tinkering, or a healthy ratio of each.

[Secret Sansa]

I suddenly had a strange thought. If Rhaegar had indeed become a follower of R'hollor, then he probably also believed in the magic of king's blood. If that is the case, then what would that mean for Jon Snow? Was he actually supposed to be sacrificed?

If Lyanna had become a follower during her stay with Rhaegar, maybe she became convinced that Jon Snow had to be sacrificed for some prophecy to be fulfilled. Was that what she was asking of Ned? "Promise me Ned; to sacrifice my infant son to the lord of light."

Maybe now that Jon dies at the end of aDwD, this particular prophecy can finally be fulfilled.

Or is this just totally crackpot? (By the way; Hi, this is my first post)

[Bran Vras]

But he was still his blood, his heir. I see their relationship during those last years as something similar to Tywin's with Tyrion - Tywin actually hated his son, but he still chose him to be the Hand of the King in his place while he was fighting the war. As much as their relationship was strained, I simply don't see Aerys wishing to see his son posing as a poor warrior in the tournament, for that would make Aerys himself seem weaker (or maybe I just watched too much Merlin and now see Aerys and the Westerosi Uther =P). And I disagree with you, I did feel some resentment from Barristan during his recollections of Harrenhall.

But well, the main part of my post was the first, that Barristan's dubious recollection of Rhaegar could be originated from some kind of resentment. The part about Aerys' orders was simply something that came to mind as a possible alternative to enchanted rubies ^.~

If relationships between Aerys and Rhaegar were bad, it's quite possible Aerys, for once, wasn't totally insane. I mean, he probably was pissed off that he "kidnapped" Lyanna and caused so much trouble, even if he hadn't any trouble burning her relatives instead of freeing her.

And Rhaegar basically told Jaime, right before the Trident, that he intended to act as a kind of Regent for his demented father when he would come back. Aerys just suspected as much a few months earlier. It's also probable that the KG Rhaegar trusted the most were those he sent at the Tower of Joy - all of whom having possibly a planned role during the removal of Aerys, unlike Jaime and Barristan, whom Rhaegar trusted a bit less.

Which of course makes for an interesting twist about Ned's father "southern ambitions", and all the talk about lords plotting to overthrow the Targaryens. Could it be that the original plan was Rhaegar wanting their support to remove his dad from power, with things taking a wholly different and dangerous turn when Rhaegar met Lyanna as the mystery knight and understood she was some kind of she-wolf that would be helpful for his goal of bringing the Prince that was promised to Westeros.

Of course, there's also Varys' role. Was he working to overthrow the Targs by feeding Aerys' madness? After all, he advised him not to trust Tywin and not to let the Lannisters enter King's Landing.

Was he working to avoid the potential trouble of a (soft) palace coup by Rhaegar?

You both raise fascinating questions about the relationship between Aerys and Rhaegar and the supposed paranoia of Aerys. It might be that the fears of Aerys were not totally unfunded. I have noted that he feared 1) that Rhaegar would conspire with other lords to depose him and 2) that Lewyn Martell would betray the Targaryens.

I must say that I don't believe Aerys was sane. But given that History is written by the victors (in the present case: Lannisters, Starks, Baratheons, Arryns), the insistence on Aerys' madness might be excessive, especially since that is what justifies the rebellion.

Nothing in what I have read (and, certainly, I might have missed some intimate details) about the ruby glamour suggests that its wearer may acquire some form of super-human (as in enhancing, making someone stronger, more agile, etc) qualities. It seems the only reference that we have of a confirmed ruby glamour is Mance. In this case, glamour is the synonym of deceit in appearance, and only that. Even in case of Mel – that is if she is glamoured at all – ascribing her some enhanced magic abilities just because of the ruby that she is wearing, might be misleading. My personal belief is that Mel’s glamour is also of the more appearance-altering nature (as in the case of her being ancient, wrinkled, ugly, or, well, dead, and wanting to look ever so young).

Description of glamour as one of the weak ways of transforming ones appearance is also confirmed by the FM, who regard it as somewhat better option to the mummers tricks. So, allowing for anything more than that, may not be readily supported by the text.

I also seem to remember an episode describing a knight in the Hand’s Tourney sporting his ancient family runes on the armor as ways of magical protection. Same knight failing the first tilt. And if one draws parallels with the D&E stories, they may conclude that by far, one of the surest ways of altering the tourney results is to be financially interested in certain outcomes (bribe knights, hire knights, rig drawings, etc) as opposed to the others.

And if the same conclusions are extrapolated in reference to Rhaegar, it seems that his particular success at Harrenhall could be much more plausibly attributed to either his own superior skills, or certain materialistic tinkering, or a healthy ratio of each.

When I wrote the OP, I wasn't sure there would be a consensus on my reading of Barristan's hesitancy to recognize Rhaegar's skills at arms. I am bit relieved that people seem to agree with that, with Lady's Octarina caveat. However I was well aware that the fact that the rubies were magical and instrumental in Rhaegar's triumph would be controversial. About the effect of the rubies, I would imagine that, in matter of jousting, some low level magic would suffice. An optical illusion, something alike Melisandre's lesser tricks, was enough to deceive Rhaegar's opponents with regard to his actual position. Another option, not very different, would be that the rubies have some hypnotic power (instead of distorting light, they would have an effect on the mind of observers). I think I have a preference for the second option. In any case, Eddard Stark's comment applies: "No lance could touch him".

Once again the point was not that Rhaegar could not have won the tournament. It's that he couldn't be sure to win based on his skills alone, and that he had his own reason to win, perhaps at all cost. After all, in the Mystery Knight we have seen it all: political importance of the event, rigged tournament, use of glamour by Maynard Plumm (probably based on a moonstone, not a ruby).

[brut]

When I wrote the OP, I wasn't sure there would be a consensus on my reading of Barristan's hesitancy to recognize Rhaegar's skills at arms. I am bit relieved that people seem to agree with that, with Lady's Octarina caveat. However I was well aware that the fact that the rubies were magical and instrumental in Rhaegar's triumph would be controversial. About the effect of the rubies, I would imagine that, in matter of jousting, some low level magic would suffice. An optical illusion, something alike Melisandre's lesser tricks, was enough to deceive Rhaegar's opponents with regard to his actual position. Another option, not very different, would be that the rubies have some hypnotic power (instead of distorting light, they would have an effect on the mind of observers). I think I have a preference for the second option. In any case, Eddard Stark's comment applies: "No lance could touch him".

Once again the point was not that Rhaegar could not have won the tournament. It's that he couldn't be sure to win based on his skills alone, and that he had his own reason to win, perhaps at all cost. After all, in the Mystery Knight we have seen it all: political importance of the event, rigged tournament, use of glamour by Maynard Plumm (probably based on a moonstone, not a ruby).

Yes, I do agree with the general assumption, that certain forces may have been at work to ensure a particular outcome of the Harrenhall Tourney. Still - while undoubtedly elegant - stretching the ruby magic (optical illusions, etc.) as one of the contributing factors in Rhaegar's success may be too far fetched of a conclusion, especially considering author's multiple indications as to the darker sides of the Westerosi tourneys.

Also, good catch about Bloodraven's glamour in the Mystery Knight. Irrespective of how this was achieved, it also seems to demonstrate the point that glamours are the medium of altered appearance, rather than super-natural abilities. To conclude the thought - if my reading of the FM metamorphosis is correct, I assume only they can acquire certain magical benefits from "facelifts". Though any such benefits may be limited in scale, and the FM continue to heavily rely on their assassination techniques.

[Uncat]

@Brashcandy I was wondering about the "black heart" thing too. I know this may be too literal but it's interesting anyway...

Drogon

Mel

If you have black blood then I would think your heart was black. Also if Robert saw Rhaegar had black blood from his wounds during their battle then refering to him with a black heart would fit as well. I know it's probably meant as symbolic but this is a magical world with dragons, people with black blood, people with purple and red eyes, and so on. That statement just made me think of these things but I'm sure I'm reading too much into it. :shrug:

This reminds me of another one scene with black blood streaming from a wound. Though in this case it is not described as hot. When the hound strikes down Beric, his blood is decribed as black, too. But maybe in this case GRRM was really just painting the picture. In the cave of the Brotherhood, which was only illuminated by fire, the blood would apear black. Then there is another thing, a hunch, I would call it. In Real live, black blood is a sign of a dead body. The oxigen exchange which is resposibel for the bright red color no longer works. And I have the feeling, that with GRRM black blood more then often is connected to death. But if have neither ebook nor Kindle to check this.

[Uncat]

My theory is:

The Targs are said to be either great or crazy. I think that with the 'greatness' comes the fire immunity, and with the madness comes no such immunity. (Viserys, Aerion, others)

There is either a connection between the unburnt targs & the Red priests that we are unaware of, or there shall be some such connection in the future.

Is the heat thing with Danny really so important? I'm not sure, but as far as I rember it, there is no scene where Danny endures fire or litteraly scalding temperaturs unburnt apart from the pyre. Figurativly scalding, yes. But not literaly. And as for that, I happen to tell people that I must be living with a Dragon because my partner loves scalding hot bath.

Danny is the unburned Dragon. But for now it looks like she is the only one. Sane or insane, the Targs like it hot because they act their sigil animal out. But boiling water or a flame will burn them as the touch of Drogons breath (not fire) burned Dannys skin.

As for madness and greatness, we don't really know, how Danny will turn out. In Meerene she tried to do, what look right and sensible. That did not work out really well. So At the end of ADWD the is a stromg hint, that she is changing her mind on the being nice thing.

[Lummel]

... And I have the feeling, that with GRRM black blood more then often is connected to death. ..

AGOT Bran's vision of the three figures looming round Sansa, one of those is a knight who lifts his visor to show the thick black blood inside if I remember correctly. This is often interpreted to be GREGORSTEIN or FRANKENGREGOR if you prefer.

[Uncat]

I think Rhaegar's rubies could be connected to other rubies. Here is Aegon being prepared to meet the Golden Company.

Varys was already in King's Landing during the reign of Aerys. Thus, Illyrio and Varys could have provided the rubies and the magic which comes with them.

Here is how I described the meeting with the Golden Company in another thread. Judge for yourself if Young Griff's persuasiveness was natural.

Recall that Young Griff' and Connington arrive in a tense atmosphere. Griff feels they are not welcome. Aegon sixth of the name is greeted with silence. The discussion does not begin well for him. Amazingly quickly Young Griff wins every officer of the company to his plan (the more resistant Harry Strickland joined late). He must have looked very charismatic to the sellswords.

Here is what Young Griff said (note that Griff is dubitative)

Here is Tristan Rivers before Young Griff spoke

and after

Franklyn Flowers before

and after

Finally Griff.

On the other hand I have been on a lot of business meetigs which ran exactly like this one. The situation is tense, a decision needs to be made but nobody wants to put him or herself out there. Then somebody starts it by proposing a new idea. The first supporter seconds it, then another and suddenly everibody starts talking like the just heard Jesus preaching on the mountain. It's exactly how Jow puts it. The tide turns, a current rises and those in the water are dragged along with it. Nothing magical there. Only a bold plan which cuts a knot. This goes especially for warriors who prefer actions to politics.

[Bran Vras]

Bran! The quote you provided from Robert about Rhaegar is really interesting :) I wonder if there's any signficance about Robert talking about Rhaegar's "black" heart.

The mention of the black heart reminds me of the discussion we had over the Boltons and Craster. As far as I recall, people are attributed black blood, or black heart when they are born of rape, and also, I think, of incest. The prince of Dragonstone, being a Targaryen, was born of incest. In any case, Robert seems to see something demoniac in Rhaegar (as if he was the only one left unaffected by Rhaegar's charisma, is this why he could hit him on the Trident?).

This reminds me of another one scene with black blood streaming from a wound. Though in this case it is not described as hot. When the hound strikes down Beric, his blood is decribed as black, too. But maybe in this case GRRM was really just painting the picture. In the cave of the Brotherhood, which was only illuminated by fire, the blood would apear black. Then there is another thing, a hunch, I would call it. In Real live, black blood is a sign of a dead body. The oxigen exchange which is resposibel for the bright red color no longer works. And I have the feeling, that with GRRM black blood more then often is connected to death. But if have neither ebook nor Kindle to check this.

In the Roose Bolton thread, somebody mentioned a systematic inquiry of the occurrence of black blood. I think the outcome of the inquiry was reported in one Heresy thread. I can't recall the outcome beside what I said above.

On the other hand I have been on a lot of business meetigs which ran exactly like this one. The situation is tense, a decision needs to be made but nobody wants to put him or herself out there. Then somebody starts it by proposing a new idea. The first supporter seconds it, then another and suddenly everibody starts talking like the just heard Jesus preaching on the mountain. It's exactly how Jow puts it. The tide turns, a current rises and those in the water are dragged along with it. Nothing magical there. Only a bold plan which cuts a knot. This goes especially for warriors who prefer actions to politics.

I agree that indecisive assemblies are subject to being influenced. The situation is a bit like for the Harrenhal tourney. It was not impossible that Aegon prevailed at the meeting with the GC on his charisma alone. But it was a risky bet that he would: Aegon has spent his short life on a pole boat and has no experience with crowd manipulation (there are techniques for that, and experience counts). He had no direct knowledge of the men of the Golden Company. His initiative had not been prepared with Griff, who is taken by surprise. Moreover, Aegon's skills as a strategist and debater might be respectable, but I note that he was outsmarted by Tyrion in the discussion over the cyvasse board.

I don't insist that Aegon's charisma comes from the rubies, since I have suggested in the Mance Rayder thread that it could have come from the red silk linings in his black cloak.

[Armstark]

I agree that indecisive assemblies are subject to being influenced. The situation is a bit like for the Harrenhal tourney. It was not impossible that Aegon prevailed at the meeting with the GC on his charisma alone. But it was a risky bet that he would: Aegon has spent his short life on a pole boat and has no experience with crowd manipulation (there are techniques for that, and experience counts). He had no direct knowledge of the men of the Golden Company. His initiative had not been prepared with Griff, who is taken by surprise. Moreover, Aegon's skills as a strategist and debater might be respectable, but I note that he was outsmarted by Tyrion in the discussion over the cyvasse board.

I don't insist that Aegon's charisma comes from the rubies, since I have suggested in the Mance Rayder thread that it could have come from the red silk linings in his black cloak.

This was not Aegons idea though. This new plan came from Tyrion, who knows everything about manipulation. All Aegon had to do was to look like a proper Targaryen and sell it.

[Ashen Shugar]

Is the heat thing with Danny really so important? I'm not sure, but as far as I rember it, there is no scene where Danny endures fire or litteraly scalding temperaturs unburnt apart from the pyre.

She got a facefull of dragon breath that was "hot enough to blister skin" but only lost her hair with no evidence of harm to her face.. iirc.

Was Thoros in Kingslanding when Rhaegar was alive?

[Uncat]

Very interesting finds, Bran Vras. I'm willing to bet that Aegon wore those rubies into battle at Storm's end, and perhaps we'll hear that no swords could touch him there either. If Varys is in on the plot with the rubies, it explains the extent of his confidence that he displays to Kevan in the Epilogue. Could this also be why Illyrio had no problem giving Dany the three dragon eggs? Because he was keeping something much more priceless in store for Aegon? Of course this is working on the assumption that Illyrio had no idea those eggs would hatch.

Maybe. But the easier explanation would be, that he gave the eggs to Danny because he wanted to impress the Khal and remind him of who he was marriing. After all he was expecting Drogo to present Viseris with 50.000 screamers, which then would have joined the GC as cavallery. The eggs would have been just the right present to stress Dannys and Viseris heritage while really being a kingly present. Of cours he never expected the eggs to hatch. Illirio ond Varys are quite the schemers. But the concersation of the officers of the GC clearly shows that lately really was constantly bypassing the plans they made. And nobody could have expected the junction events that made Danny hatch the eggs. If Illirio or Varys had expected her to do so, they would at least haven given her or Viseris a clue on what to do. But thats going OT, so I'll stop there.

[jon rr stark]

Once again the point was not that Rhaegar could not have won the tournament. It's that he couldn't be sure to win based on his skills alone, and that he had his own reason to win, perhaps at all cost. After all, in the Mystery Knight we have seen it all: political importance of the event, rigged tournament, use of glamour by Maynard Plumm (probably based on a moonstone, not a ruby).

this is the point he wasn't going to leave the outcome to chance. the fact that no lance could touch him is significant. even the best knight will be hit, how could you go through the whole tourney without a single opponents lance finding its target. He could get dayne etc to take a dive but to win he'd have to make sure everyone took a dive, you couldnt keep thay secret and also the ken observers would pick this up. To impress Lyanna he had to do it in style. he needed to impress her. So I'm going with some kind of magical assistance, only needs to be subtle. He was bookish as we know so would have knowledge of these things, and he could always ask bloodraven for tips.

[lmanion]

Surely Bloodraven would have been at or beyond the wall by Rhaegars time?

[Uncat]

She got a facefull of dragon breath that was "hot enough to blister skin" but only lost her hair with no evidence of harm to her face.. iirc.

Was Thoros in Kingslanding when Rhaegar was alive?

Yes she got a facefull of hot Dragonbreath, and her face is burned. Later, on her walk through the Dotraki Sea, there is a line about her healing skin. An there also is a SSM on the fireproof thing: Neither Danny nor any other Targ is fireproof. It was just a certain constallation of events and the blood magic involved, that allowed her to climb the pyre. (This is all discussed fervently on the Dragontamer thread and the theory, that Quentin actually survived his encounter with the dragons)

Edit: Actually it is right there in the quote: Hot enough to blister her skin. I.e. it was hot enaugh and blistered her skin which in the last chapter is just healing from that burn.

[Uncat]

The mention of the black heart reminds me of the discussion we had over the Boltons and Craster. As far as I recall, people are attributed black blood, or black heart when they are born of rape, and also, I think, of incest. The prince of Dragonstone, being a Targaryen, was born of incest. In any case, Robert seems to see something demoniac in Rhaegar (as if he was the only one left unaffected by Rhaegar's charisma, is this why he could hit him on the Trident?).

In the Roose Bolton thread, somebody mentioned a systematic inquiry of the occurrence of black blood. I think the outcome of the inquiry was reported in one Heresy thread. I can't recall the outcome beside what I said above.

I agree that indecisive assemblies are subject to being influenced. The situation is a bit like for the Harrenhal tourney. It was not impossible that Aegon prevailed at the meeting with the GC on his charisma alone. But it was a risky bet that he would: Aegon has spent his short life on a pole boat and has no experience with crowd manipulation (there are techniques for that, and experience counts). He had no direct knowledge of the men of the Golden Company. His initiative had not been prepared with Griff, who is taken by surprise. Moreover, Aegon's skills as a strategist and debater might be respectable, but I note that he was outsmarted by Tyrion in the discussion over the cyvasse board.

I don't insist that Aegon's charisma comes from the rubies, since I have suggested in the Mance Rayder thread that it could have come from the red silk linings in his black cloak.

Or Aegon is just a bold young man tired of waiting and he chanced into a meeting of soldiers who were weary of waiting, too. Aegon is all they dreamed of, a fine young prince, a chance to finaly get into gear. And than the guy has a plan, too. Aegon needs no glamor for this. And from the storytelling viewpoint you would not need a glamor for this, too. It makes perfect sense just as it is. If you want a historic example: There once was a rather weak, bookish and shy young man who saw a chance and did what he had to do, to convinced a bunch of the most seasoned solders that he was a leader - the very leader that they were hoping for. It was one Gaius Octavius who later becamen to be knowen as Augustus, heire to Julius Ceasar and first real Emperor of Rome. And all without glamour.

[James Arryn]

When Barristan suggests that the concept of an unbeatable knight is more words than fact, how do people read him meaning that AD>RT? I think he's saying that all the greatest knights were at about the same level, and that so many details go into which one wins at which time that deciding one is unmatched is faulty.

IMO to take from that that ___>Rhaegar is the opposite of what Barristan was suggesting. He's saying none of the greats were clearly> the others. He specifically suggests that RT didn't win as many tourneys as Viserys suggested because he didn't enter that many, not that he did and was being beaten a lot. In pretty much every instance where we do hear of him entering, he wins or comes damn close. That's as good a record as any I've heard of.

Also, the idea that Arthur Dayne would 'let' RT win seems to be to be completely against what kind of man he was. People seem to go to weird lengths to challenge the general perception that RT was exceptional, even when quoting several people saying as much.

As for the Lord of Light, it's possible, but to me the more obvious explanation for his colors are Blood and Fire.