Rhaegar Targaryen: Early passion for the Lord of Light, Foul Play at Harrenhal, The Spearwife Princess

[Bran Vras]

I recapitulated for myself the situation with Master Mott's armours. Why not share it here?

Loras Tyrell has the armour with sapphires.

Renly's green armour, without gemstones, has been taken but the Tyrells. Garland Tyrell wore it to appear as the "Ghost of Renly".

We don't know if Tywin Lannister's armour has been made by Tobho Mott. But it's almost certain if Mott tells the truth when he says no smith can match him in Westeros.

Same reasoning with Rhaegar's armour. But we might see the armour return somehow, if the seventh ruby can be found at the Quiet Isle.

@eyeheartsansa & The Shadow Fox: you have a better chance to get people's attention if you take the time to quote passages to support your ideas. Why not start a thread on a big idea like the one you suggest with support in the text?

[James Arryn]

One issue with expanding the whole magic/jewels/cheating theme is the same issue with any other kind of conspiracy; you nw have a number of people in the know, and worse, people with conflicting agendas/loyalties.

So if it's accurate, its increasingly remarkable that it remains largely a secret.

[7V3N]

I think this whole thread hints to something much larger: Was magic really dead, or were the Maesters trying to hide it from the world?

This makes some very convincing arguments that magic was there all along, just incredibly subtle.

[Red Raven]

Just throwing this out there as a crackpot theory:

Lyanna was the Knight of the Laughing Tree. Rhaegar, who somehow knew, was so impressed with her skills he asked her to stand in for him as well. They glamoured up and swapped identities and it was Lyanna who fought as Rhaegar and won and Rhaegar was the one who got the love and beauty wreath.

Meanwhile, Howland Reed was thankful she defended his honor as the KotLT and owed her his loyalty so he, along with Ned, was trusted to keep her secrets at the ToJ.

[Bran Vras]

I think this whole thread hints to something much larger: Was magic really dead, or were the Maesters trying to hide it from the world?

This makes some very convincing arguments that magic was there all along, just incredibly subtle.

I would just like to share a thought about magic, which I think is very much connected to power. We see Melisandre controlling Mance with her ruby, and we can suspect that she is herself controlled by a greater power. There might be a general philosophy in play here. We know Aegon was given a set of rubies by Illyrio, and Illyrio, in turn, wears many precious stones on his fingers. Who knows if Illyrio is not himself an agent?

All that reminds me a four words penetrating comment I read on GRRM's stories: True power remains hidden.

I can't find the passage, but it is thought provoking. In ADwD, Tyrion reflects that every generation just lives as a tool of the previous generation, with no end to the process.

Purely on this basis, I tend to approve Lykos' comment.

I don´t think that Rhaegar was knowingly following Rh´llor, but I believe that he was used.

[CloudFlare]

I think this whole thread hints to something much larger: Was magic really dead, or were the Maesters trying to hide it from the world?

This makes some very convincing arguments that magic was there all along, just incredibly subtle.

I'd say it was dead, or the Targs had limited success reviving it. Rhaegar probably had some luck bringing the magic back. The Targ attempts to hatch dragons might have really been attempts to bring magic back as well.

[7V3N]

I'd say it was dead, or the Targs had limited success reviving it. Rhaegar probably had some luck bringing the magic back. The Targ attempts to hatch dragons might have really been attempts to bring magic back as well.

I see dragons and magic as being connected. But the Maesters could have been involved in the dragons being born with deformities and whatnot, then hatching eggs using magic was far past the Targaryens' understanding (seen by how nobody can do it, and Dany basically does so by accident).

[Lykos]

I think the dragons might work as a sort of relay for magic,that otherwise would only be possible to work at it´s source (Asshai?).

I think Dany´s dragon hatching was helped along by Mirri Maz Duur. I posted this on the R+L=J v.22 thread page 20.

MMD was the only person with magical knowledge present. She has been to Asshai. The other person who learned magic in Asshai, Melisandre, tries to raise dragons. MMD claims to be a priestess of the Great Shepaherd. This is highly unbelieveable, since the Great Shepherd is the (main/only ?) god of the Lazareen, a peaceful people and not very much into revenge.

I think MMD found out that all the right ingredients to hatch dragons where to be found at Drogo´s Khalasar, by flame or prearrangement. Dragon eggs, (Pregnant?)Targaryen, right time (red comet?), right place(volcanic activity?).

Drogo was wounded, I think it possible that MMD had a hand in that, too. MMD offered her help, trying to gain Dany´s trust she mentions that she learned from a Maester and Jorah Mormont confirms her story, so Dany lets MMD help even though the Dothraki hate Maegies. We later learn that the Maester, Marwyn is very interested in magic and most likely learned from MMD and not vice versa. MMD´s treatment is rejected by Drogo, which She was well aware of, I think. But she didn´t press Dany very urgently to follow her instructions, even considering that she was threatened with death by Drogo´s Blood Riders.

So Drogo fell (at the right place) and MMD told Dany there was nothing she could do. She even accused and insulted Dany for not following the instructions, so that Dany became desperate and at the right moment MMD let slip the possibility of using magic. It´s the dance that Melisandre danced with Stannis. Then she gives some essential explanations on blood magic that even Dany could follow. Next she tells Dany of the price, a life, to Dany´s relief it´s "just" Drogo´s horse.

A horse is the most important being to the Dothraki, I would guess to most of them even more important than their wifes. Furthermore a horse causes a lot of unrest and blood. And promptly fighting breaks out and causes Dany to deliver early, and Jorah to disrupt the "magical" ceremony.

Then Dany is told that she gave birth to a monster and is taunted by MMD until her dragon wakes and she decides to burn MMD along with Drogo and placing the dragon eggs in the pyre with the mad desperate faith of her inner dragon, that this is the right thing to do.

I´ve mentioned before, that I think volcanic activity might be needed to hatch dragons. And Dany bathed Drogo with tepid water that smelled of sulfur before she smothered him. I think it´s possible that Dany´s losses helped to build her desperate faith, that I think is needed for the magic. But I think magic will always claim it´s price afterwards and you cannot be shure what this price will be.

I´ve read another nice theory that sugests, that Dany´s fetus(ses) was swapped with the contents of the dragon eggs. MMD described the stillborn Rhaego as dead for years.

[Bran Vras]

I have thought a bit more about the "Spearwife princess" conjecture: that somehow it's not an accident that Rhaegar stole Lyanna as it is customary among wildlings.

A few hints have been noted that the old gods have been watching in Harrenhal: the castle has a godswood with a weirwood. It has been built by cutting weirwoods (according to Old Nan's tales). It is suggested that Rhaegar met Lyanna while he has been sent looking for the Knight of the Laughing Tree, whose sigil was a weirwood. In any case the appearance of the mysterious knight in the tourney is at least evokes of the presence of the old gods.

What I would like to examine is the agency of Howland Reed in all this. In Jojen and Meera's tale, the little crannogman (presumably Howland Reed) spent a winter in the Isle of Faces. Just when he left, the tourney was beginning and Howland Reed just landed on the other shore of the Godseye.

Of course, there is no coincidence here. The tourney of Harrenhal was the greatest tourney of all (according to Barristan Selmy). Aerys believed, perhaps correctly, that the great lords of the realm were plotting to depose him in this occasion. Certainly the tourney had been announced with great fanfare throughout the Seven Kingdoms.

The Isle of faces is a landmark of old gods in Westeros, and nobody we see in the story, except Howland Reed, has ever visited it. It seems to me that Howland Reed had been summoned to the Isle like the three-eyed-crow has made Bran come to him.

In Harrenhal, Howland Reed after being bullied by three squires, is defended by Lyanna and

Much as he wished to have his vengeance, he feared he would only make a fool of himself and shame his people. The quiet wolf had offered the little crannogman a place in his tent that night, but before he slept he knelt on the lakeshore, looking across the water to where the Isle of Faces would be, and said a prayer to the old gods of north and Neck . . .”

And so the little crannogman’s prayer was answered . . . by the green men, or the old gods, or the children of the forest, who can say?”

The story reminds me very much of Arya at... Harrenhal, craving revenge and being granted three death wishes by Jaqen. Of course Arya was being repaid a blood debt. I would conjecture that Howland Reed had to repay the old gods as well by helping make happen the love affair of Lyanna and Rhaegar.

I find significant that Howland Reed was present again when Lyanna died, and presumably when Ned Stark recovered her child. It's not clear why Ned Stark took Howland Reed with him, the dry mountains of Dorne are a terrible terrain for a crannogman. Possibly Howland Reed insisted on coming along.

The fact that Howland Reed sent Jojen and Meera to Winterfell to help Bran find the three-eye-crow is another sign that he is well connected to the "old gods". I am not sure how he could have persuaded Rhaegar that the old gods had to be obeyed, and Stark bloodline needed, for certain prophecies to be fulfilled.

If the story of Lyanna and Rhaegar is a conspiration of the "old gods", it was probably in order to 1) arrange the birth of a child legitimate in their eyes (not a black bastard), and with the appropriate bloodline and/or 2) prevent whatever political revolution was in preparation in Harrenhal (southron ambitions of lord Rickard Starks, etc). In short, the "old gods" might have wanted to install on the Iron Throne one of their followers.

[CrypticWeirwood]

This reminds me of another one scene with black blood streaming from a wound. Though in this case it is not described as hot. When the hound strikes down Beric, his blood is decribed as black, too. But maybe in this case GRRM was really just painting the picture. In the cave of the Brotherhood, which was only illuminated by fire, the blood would apear black. Then there is another thing, a hunch, I would call it. In Real live, black blood is a sign of a dead body. The oxigen exchange which is resposibel for the bright red color no longer works. And I have the feeling, that with GRRM black blood more then often is connected to death. But if have neither ebook nor Kindle to check this.

It’s a surprisingly common theme, as it turns out. There are 57 sentences that contain both black and blood in them throughout the five books. Here are some of the better ones:

• Over them both loomed a giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood.
  
• The stallion’s blood looked black in the flickering orange glare of the torches that ringed the high chalk walls of the pit.
  
• The winesoaked bandages that Grand Maester Pycelle had applied were already black with blood, and the smell off the wound was hideous.
  
• Yet when he came closer, Catelyn saw that his mailed glove and the sleeve of his surcoat were black with blood.
  
• The leaves were crusted with blood and pus, Drogo’s breast black and glistening with corruption.
  
• Black blood ran slow and thick from his open wound.
  
• Blood ran down her thighs, black as ink.
  
• Blood dripped from their mouths black as pitch, burning holes in the snow where it fell.
  
• She saw him for a moment, all black and green, the blood on his face dark as tar, his eyes glowing like a dog’s in the sudden glare.
  
• All the bright dyes had leached out from the surcoats of the slain; they were garbed in shades of white and grey, and their blood was black and crusty.
  
• Craster’s blood is black, and he bears a heavy curse.
  
• The blood came rushing out in a hot black gush.
  
• Then the lightning turned the night to day, and he saw the wolf standing on Del’s chest, blood running black from his jaws.
  
• He remembered the old man’s eyes too, and the black blood rushing from his throat as the storm cracked overhead.
  
• Beneath her ravaged scalp, her face was shredded skin and black blood where she had raked herself with her nails.
  
• Asha sheathed her dirk and left him standing there, with a fat drop of blood slowly creeping down his neck, black in the pale light of the moon.
  
• All of it came pouring out of Brienne then, like black blood from a wound; the betrayals and betrothals, Red Ronnet and his rose, Lord Renly dancing with her, the wager for her maidenhead, the bitter tears she shed the night her king wed Margaery Tyrell, the mêlée at Bitterbridge, the rainbow cloak that she had been so proud of, the shadow in the king’s pavilion, Renly dying in her arms, Riverrun and Lady Catelyn, the voyage down the Trident, dueling Jaime in the woods, the Bloody Mummers, Jaime crying “Sapphires,” Jaime in the tub at Harrenhal with steam rising from his body, the taste of Vargo Hoat’s blood when she bit down on his ear, the bear pit, Jaime leaping down onto the sand, the long ride to King’s Landing, Sansa Stark, the vow she’d sworn to Jaime, the vow she’d sworn to Lady Catelyn, Oathkeeper, Duskendale, Maidenpool, Nimble Dick and Crackclaw and the Whispers, the men she’d killed...
  
• In the dim green tent, the blood seemed more black than red.
  
• A pool of frozen blood, glistening red and black.
  
• When he laid the edge of the blade against the swollen throat of the creature on the straw, the skin split open in a gout of black blood and yellow pus.
  
• Blood trickled down her thigh, black and smoking.
  
• Lakes boiled or turned to acid, mountains burst, fiery fountains spewed molten rock a thousand feet into the air, red clouds rained down dragonglass and the black blood of demons, and to the north the ground splintered and collapsed and fell in on itself and an angry sea came rushing in.
  
• Black blood was flowing from the wound where the spear had pierced him, smoking where it dripped onto the scorched sands.
  
• This time it hurt, but blood welled up as well as pus, blood so dark that it looked black in the lantern light.
  
• Flakes of dried blood crumbled at the touch of her fingertips, black in the lantern light.
  

[Bran Vras]

Two more additions to the initial theories:

About the magical nature of armours encrusted with gems. In the House of the Undying, Dany has the following vision:

Beyond the doors was a great hall and a splendor of wizards. Some wore sumptuous robes of ermine, ruby velvet, and cloth of gold. Others fancied elaborate armor studded with gemstones, or tall pointed hats speckled with stars.

and a moment later

“We have knowledge to share with you,” said a warrior in shining emerald armor, “and magic weapons to arm you with. You have passed every trial. Now come and sit with us, and all your questions shall be answered.”

So there is no question that an armour with encrusted gemstones is suggestive of magic.

About the notion that Rhaegar was in some form a devotee of R'hllor, at least early in his life. It's interesting to ask what was the Valyrians' original religion, and what was the Targaryens' religion when they conquered Westeros. There are few hints that the Red Religion comes from Valyria:

• It is to be found among all the Free Cities, which were all, but Braavos, part to the Valyrian empire.
  
• When we see the high priest Benerro, "first Servant of R'hllor" in Volantis, he preaches in High Valyrian and

  The priest could trace fiery letters in the air as well. Valyrian glyphs.

  A clear indication that the red religion is tied to the Valyrian culture.
  
• Finally there is the remark, that I should credit Black Crow for, that the Red Keep in KIng's Landing is built of red stone, a material which we never see elsewhere in the Seven Kingdoms, but which is the material used to build the Red Temples in the Free Cities. (And the Red Temples are massive constructions like the Red Keep.)
  

Perhaps the Targaryens abandoned the red religion shortly after the Conquest, possibly when Jaehaerys concluded an agreement with the Faith. It is not surprising that some Targaryens, like Rhaegar and Aerion, returned to it.

[Elaena Targaryen]

So we know Aegon's dragons were said to be named after gods from Valyria and most assume they had these gods. Here is Dany, in aCoK, saying this during a time when she is trying to remember things Viserys told her about dragons so she can care for her dragons...

"Aegon's dragons were named for the gods of Old Valyria," she told her bloodriders one morning after a long night's journey. "Visenya's dragon was Vhagar, Rhaenys had Meraxes, and Aegon rode Balerion the Black Dread.

So there you have it from Dany and it seems everyone believes Old Valyria had different gods and we know three names; Balerion, Vhagar and Meraxes. I could only find one other reference to this, but there could still be more that I missed, so I am curious if anyone remembers anything else about the gods of Valyria. Anyway here is the other reference from the text and it's Tyrion's thoughts, in aGoT, when he goes to see the dragon skulls at the Red Keep...

From there the skulls ranged upward in size to the three great monsters of song and story, the dragons

that Aegon Targaryen and his sisters had unleashed on the Seven Kingdoms of old. The singers had given them the names of gods: Balerion, Meraxes, Vhaghar.

I think the bolded part is worded srtangely and I wanted to see what others thought because I could be misunderstanding this. It makes me wonder if Dany could be mistaken about the gods from Valyria, I suppose Viserys could have given her incorrect information or there are the songs and they thought the songs were right. Of course Dany, Viserys and / or the songs could be right but it's odd that Tyrion says or actualy thinks to himself in that way.

Tyrion has read about all of this so for him to think "the singers had given them ( the dragons ) the names of gods" is odd to me, and maybe I'm wrong but I wonder if it really was the songs that turned the dragons names into something they were not and over time, possibly changing in the telling also, everyone assumed it to be true. It's easy to see the singers doing this if you think about it, dragons show up and hell is unleashed then you have a new royal family that thinks themselves above even the gods with incest and polygamy.

I wanted to explain my thought process, but I know I'm probably reading too much into all of this, so I could see what others thought about all of it.

[Lummel]

...I think the bolded part is worded srtangely and I wanted to see what others thought because I could be misunderstanding this. It makes me wonder if Dany could be mistaken about the gods from Valyria, I suppose Viserys could have given her incorrect information or there are the songs and they thought the songs were right. Of course Dany, Viserys and / or the songs could be right but it's odd that Tyrion says or actualy thinks to himself in that way...

I think it means that Dany isn't a heretic :( , but on the otherhand Tyrion is :) .

Dany hasn't questioned the stories that she has learnt about Valyria, she accepts them at face value. Tyrion on the other hand, puts pieces of information together and evaluates how accurate a source of information is likely to be. What they know about Valyrian religion seems to come from songs, it might be true or about as accurate as teh songs about the battle of the blackwater that Tyrion hears at Joffrey's wedding feast.

[Bran Vras]

I think it means that Dany isn't a heretic :( , but on the otherhand Tyrion is :) .

... yes despite, or in reason of, having been educated as a septon :) .

I had forgotten, or never really integrated, or perhaps even never known that the name of the dragons came from the Valyrian gods of old. It's curious that the name of these gods are never encountered again in the Essos chapters (Volantis etc).

In any case, the closest living people to the ancient Valyrians are probably in the inner city of Volantis (these nice people only admit among them those who can prove unbroken descent from ancient Valyria, much to the satisfaction of Mrs Vogarro ;) ). And we see that the Volantene elite is not on friendly terms with the red religion, which seems to be the opium of the people in Essos these days. So the highborn Volantene, and probably other the Valyrians of old, worship probably other gods we don't know about.

But given the passion the Valyrians had for fire, I maintain my suggestion that the red religion comes from Valyria, or had a long history within the Valyrian empire.

[7V3N]

... yes despite, or in reason of, having been educated as a septon :) .

I had forgotten, or never really integrated, or perhaps even never known that the name of the dragons came from the Valyrian gods of old. It's curious that the name of these gods are never encountered again in the Essos chapters (Volantis etc).

In any case, the closest living people to the ancient Valyrians are probably in the inner city of Volantis (these nice people only admit among them those who can prove unbroken descent from ancient Valyria, much to the satisfaction of Mrs Vogarro). And we see that the Volantene elite is not on friendly terms with the red religion, which seems to be the opium of the people in Essos these days. So the highborn Volantene, and probably other the Valyrians of old, worship probably other gods we don't know about.

But given the passion the Valyrians had for fire, I maintain my suggestion that the red religion comes from Valyria, or had a long history within the Valyrian empire.

Could it not have originated in Asshai?

[Lummel]

I had forgotten, or never really integrated, or perhaps even never known that the name of the dragons came from the Valyrian gods of old. It's curious that the name of these gods are never encountered again in the Essos chapters (Volantis etc).

...

But given the passion the Valyrians had for fire, I maintain my suggestion that the red religion comes from Valyria, or had a long history within the Valyrian empire.

Valyria is loosely modelled on Rome, so we can imagine that R'hollorism is like Christianity and was in the process of replacing the older gods by the time of the Doom, or had replaced them entirely but their names were remembered rather like the names of pagan gods are preserved in the English names of the days of the week or in place names. I can't remember if the age of any of the red temples has been mentioned so it's possible that the religion either swept in or arrose after the Doom.

The odd thing is that the biggest temple is in Volantis but I don't recall any mention of Red Temples further East in Quarth or Slaver's Bay. That leds me to suspect that R'hllorism developed in the Volantis area, but I thought the Azor Ahai myth was meant to have come from further east?

[Bran Vras]

If Valyria=Rome, and Volantis=Constantinople, the Byzantines had indeed left behind for good the Greco-Roman gods. However several new cults were in competition in the last centuries of the Roman Empire. Mithraism was the main competitor to Christianity, I think (it was even the religion of many roman soldiers, I think, like the faith in R'hllor is now in Volantis).

The the red religion is present in force in all the Free Cities, except perhaps Lorath, and Norvos. (But Jaqen H'Ghar is a Lorathi and knows well the red god, and Doran Martell once visited Norvos in the colours of the red god.) I never saw any mention in Slaver's Bay. But in Qarth, there is a modest red temple in the illustration of Other-In-Law. I think Melisandre is the only basis we have for the red religion's presence in Asshai. But it's quite possible that religion originates from there, as The Shadow Fox says. Though the priest in Volantis claims preeminence over the whole clergy.

Edit: about the Azor Ahai legend. In the real world, stories and legends, and even messianic figures seem to hop from one religion to another. Witness the main monotheistic religions (Jesus being a prophet of Islam etc). Witness the how buddhism was originally a reform of hinduism, before the Buddha became in turn an incarnation of Vishnu. So it's quite possible that the legend of Azor Ahai existed before the faith in R'hllor and it's natural that the red religion would be syncretic, given its global nature.

[Armstark]

I would just like to share a thought about magic, which I think is very much connected to power. We see Melisandre controlling Mance with her ruby, and we can suspect that she is herself controlled by a greater power.

In what way does Melisandre control Mance? I must have missed it and would be glad if you could provide the passage(s).

I really like the connections you guys made between gemstones/silk and magic/glamouring, but I am not ready to believe it fully. Aferall there is much simpler explanation for this: High Lords tend to dress in the best clothes (=silk) and show their wealth with precious objects (=gems).

[bbqq]

In what way does Melisandre control Mance? I must have missed it and would be glad if you could provide the passage(s).

Well, there's here;

'Melisandre spoke softly in a strange tongue. The ruby at her throat throbbed slowly, and Jon saw that the smaller stone on Rattleshirt’s wrist was brightening and darkening as well. “So long as he wears the gem he is bound to me, blood and soul,” the red priestess said. “This man will serve you faithfully. The flames do not lie, Lord Snow.”'

Except we learn later that the only reason

Rattleshirt/glamoured Mance would serve faithfully is because Melisandre's glamour is protecting him from death at the hands of others.

So I guess technically, she does control Mance, but not directly using magic - Of course, I may have missed something.

(I'm new here so I wasn't entirely sure whether I'd need to put spoiler tags for something as far into the book as that..)

[Armstark]

Thank you bbqq. I think you dont need spoiler tags anymore (especially in the ADWD board).

So I guess the jury is still out on the controlling by magic. Does Abel even wear the ruby in Winterfell? He certainely is not glamoured as Rattleshirt anymore.