Rhaegar Targaryen: Early passion for the Lord of Light, Foul Play at Harrenhal, The Spearwife Princess

[Bran Vras]

It remains to be seen whether Melisandre really controls Mance, and whether Mance still has the ruby in Winterfell. But she believes she does. Mance, as Rattleshirt, says of the ruby.

Every day I think how easy it would be to pry it out, and every day I don’t.

Moreover, Stannis has a ruby on his "magic sword" as well.

Finally, Mance had once famously red silk on his cloak (check the Mance Rayder thread on my signature for the discussion of that).

[7V3N]

I seemed to miss that Mel was controlling Mance in that way. I thought it was more of a, "I saved you, everyone thinks you are dead, if anybody finds out you are Mance then you are dead." But it seems I missed the real thing--that Mel is Mance's puppet master?

[Armstark]

'Melisandre spoke softly in a strange tongue. The ruby at her throat throbbed slowly, and Jon saw that the smaller stone on Rattleshirt’s wrist was brightening and darkening as well. “So long as he wears the gem he is bound to me, blood and soul,” the red priestess said. “This man will serve you faithfully. The flames do not lie, Lord Snow.”'

Well I think she has some control over Mance through the ruby, but she is overstating things to convince Jon Snow. "The flames do not lie," indicates to me that she thinks that Mance will serve faithfully because she has seen it in the flames rather then because he really is bound by blood and soul.

Every day I think how easy it would be to pry it out, and every day I don’t.

Certainely open to interpretation why he doesnt do it. Is it because some magic prevents him or because he has to hide the fact that he is alive?

Is there any description of Abel with the ruby? I cannot believe that he poses as Abel in his Rattleshirt glamour, since Ranttleshirt is a known raider and somebody could recognize him, especially if he is still wearing the bones (yeah they kind of give it away ^^ ). But according to Mel the bones were a huge part of the glamour. Can he wear the ruby and NOT be glamoured?

Mance has always been a mystery to me, i just cant get a read on him. Yet so intriguing. He is mentioned a lot in AGoT from the very start, so I think he will play an important role in the end. But on what side, doing what? I have no idea. I have read a lot of the Mance thread, but it only confused me more, just so much open questions about him (and Val).

[7V3N]

Mance has always been a mystery to me, i just cant get a read on him. Yet so intriguing. He is mentioned a lot in AGoT from the very start, so I think he will play an important role in the end. But on what side, doing what? I have no idea. I have read a lot of the Mance thread, but it only confused me more, just so much open questions about him (and Val).

Not to mention the whole greyscale thing with Val. That quick dialogue between her and Jon just screamed of significance. I wonder if we will learn more things about it as it makes its way through JonCon.

[Elaena Targaryen]

When Mance and Mel are talking about his glamor and that he should where the bones this is the whole quote from what he says about the ruby...

“The glamor, aye.” In the black iron fetter about his wrist, the ruby seemed to pulse. He tapped it with the edge of his blade. The steel made a faint click against the stone. “I feel it when I sleep. Warm against my skin, even through the iron. Soft as a woman’s kiss. Your kiss. But sometimes in my dreams it starts to burn, and your lips turn into teeth. Every day I think how easy it would be to pry it out, and every day I don’t. Must I wear the bloody bones as well?”

[LittleDragon]

I find this discussion veryninteresting. I can easily believe that Rhaegar found a description about Rh'ollor and became follower of the new religion. However I am not fully convinced about the ruby issue, I simply don't see how a glamour could help him in a battle or at the tourney.

But if I put it aside, and try to suppose that Rhaegar has collected some knowledge on magie and used it through rubins, I don't see contradiction between using magie and being defeted by a warhammer. i mean, I always believed that using magie needs to have a clear and focused mind to keep it up. If we imagine and compare the two situations the difference is clear: a tourney is like a sport event. Participants havevtime for preparation, some minutes to concentrate to the other knight, the joust takes some minutes, and than they have some rest untol the next round.

Supposing that Rhaegar used any magie, it fits ti the pattern: having time for mental preparations, he might have time to build it up and keep up during the clash, as it is short. However, at the Trident, Rhaegar had to face with a furious Robert. Even though if Rhaegar wanted to repeat his magie used before, the circumstances were completely different: the figth takes longer time, it is more dynamic, requires more attention etc. descriptions about the young Robert shows a strong, tall, handsome man, who must have been frigthening in his furious fight. Any doubts what Rhaegar might have felt to see him and to fight with him, must have weaken his magie because it has distracted his mind from keeping it up. A moment of fatigue, a moment of doubt, and if his mind was not fully focused, the warhammer could caught Rhaegar and kill him. So, there is no contradiction in how it is possible to defeat a magic-user with physical power.

But I don't think Rhaegar had anything to do with magic. Hisvrubies were for decoration. Every other cases where the rubies served for glamour, they had direct contact with the skin of the person, like in the neck or on the wrights. Rhaegar wore them on the blastplate, not on his skin, so he could not have developed a magical deception.

Aegon however, if he had the rubies in his neck, that is another story, there can be something. But there also someone have to keep up the glamour, and that is mot easy. Melisandre hershelf acknowledges it at the burning of the false Mance that he had difficulties to keep up the glamour. Keeping it up for long term or between difficult circumstances seemd to be a challenge even for a very skilled and talented sorciere like Melisandre, how we can suppose that a non-professional like Rhaegar or Aegon can do that?

[Ser Leftwich]

"The memory was still bitter. Old Lord Whent had announced the tourney shortly after a visit from his brother, Ser Oswell Whent of the Kingsguard. With Varys whispering in his ear, King Aerys became convinced that his son was conspiring to depose him, that Whent’s tourney was but a ploy to give Rhaegar a pretext for meeting with as many great lords as could be brought together. Aerys had not set foot outside the Red Keep since Duskendale, yet suddenly he announced that he would accompany Prince Rhaegar to Harrenhal, and everything had gone awry from there.

If I had been a better knight ... if I had unhorsed the prince in that last tilt, as I unhorsed so many others, it would have been for me to choose the queen of love and beauty ..."

I took this as Barristan taking a dive for Rhaegar, since we know that Barristan beat Rhaegar before at Storm's End. The wording that Barristan says that "if he had been a better knight" not better jouster or the like, that taking a dive was un-knightly, but he had to do it because Rhaegar asked/told him to.

The jousting was over five days. Enough time to arrange dives as needs be. The others that we know that Rhaegar beat were: Yohn Royce, Brandon Stark, and Arthur Dayne. Dayne would take a dive for Rhaegar, and Brandon was possibly an indifferent jouster (jousting seems much less practiced in the North). That leaves only Royce, who would have been tough, but beatable.

This ties in with another longer, crazier theory I am nursing about there being two coups of Aerys going on at the same time: the Stark-Tully-Baratheon marriage one and one of Rhaegar's devising. At Harrenhal, that Rhaegar was trying to talk the Stark-Tully-Baratheon into joining him, but Robert would get on board.

There is the specific mention of Lonmouth (Rhaegar's ex squire and good friend) and Robert B. drinking it up at Harrenhal, maybe Lonmouth trying to convince Robert.

And that Rhaegar arranged to have the Baratheon-Stark wedding delayed to allay fears/reaction from Aerys, by having Lyanna come to court to season her to politics, but then R-L fall in love and all hell breaks loose.

This should be in the crackpot thread.

[Rheagar Prime]

man this is a good theory +++rep for a well thought out deduction. Still i must say you forgot the most important term the man was simply a genius he started martial training so late and was still a fierce warrior who could beat skilled knights much like barristan and jamie b4 him, he simply had the talent for it thats all. Tywin i don't think he made his knights lose to impress rheagar since the engagement was already approved it was just as it was. A tournament for the celebration of the up coming announcement of rhaegar and cersei's engagement, but the mad king changed his mind.

Te other thing its as barristan said he beat rhaegar once at a tournament,but it doesn't mean he will win again even if he is a better martial fighter same thing happened with arthur dayne rhaegar was just better on the day.

Still it is a good theory and would shed some light on why rhaegar was considered unhittable.

[Blisscraft]

This is so interesting. Thank you for this thread. I would like to add a little to it with regard to rubies in general. GRRM, as noted in many of the posts, shows a real fascination with gemstones. I don't think it's an accident that rubies are associated with the Red god. One of the reasons has to do with the nature of rubies. Rubies are, as part of the corundum family, a trigonal crystallized aluminum oxide. The only gem harder than corundum is diamond. Corundum comes in a variety of colors, but most well known are rubies, saphhires, and emeralds. It's the trace elements that create each corundum's color. The ruby's red color comes from a trace addition of cromium which serves to absorb green from the color spectrum. Rubies exhibit pleochroism which means that they display more than one color due to the absorption of light in different directions. So seen one way, a ruby may be bright red and another more carmine. Rubies have inclusions called "silk" which interfere with light. Because of the silk, a ruby may be cut to show asterism, or a star effect.

GRRM's choice of the ruby is significant because of its association with the color red, the color of life, the color of warmth, the color of fire. Also, because the color looks different in different directions is like fire. It moves, as it consumes. Rubies absorb/consume light and appear to shift and move as their color changes. Finally, the ruby is highly prized as a gem of love/lust and sexual potency as it corresponds to the First Chakra. Used in healing, it was sought to improve vitality, blood flow, and sexual prowess. When viewed in this context it makes sense to arm a knight with rubies, as they would help increase his "manliness."

[Sinslash]

Am I getting this right?

1. Rhaegar was a bookish boy

- until he read about Azor Ahai

2. Rhaegar initially thought he was Azor Ahai

- so he decided to become a warrior

- so he wore Azor Ahai colors to the Lannister tournament

3. Then later on, Rhaegar thought instead that his son by Lyanna Stark would be Azor Ahai

- so he stopped wearing Azor Ahai colors

- so he kidnapped Lyanna in order to conceive a son with her, who he thinks will be Azor Ahai

(I've just scanned through this thread but have not read all the posts...)

[Winterfell is Burning]

It's more or less that, but he wasn't convinced that it was his son with Lyanna that was going to be the PTWP- it would be Aegon. I am 99,9999999% sure that Rhaegar expected a girl to be his third child, and her name would be Visenya.

[Viserys_The Transformed]

It remains to be seen whether Melisandre really controls Mance, and whether Mance still has the ruby in Winterfell. But she believes she does. Mance, as Rattleshirt, says of the ruby.

Moreover, Stannis has a ruby on his "magic sword" as well.

Finally, Mance had once famously red silk on his cloak (check the Mance Rayder thread on my signature for the discussion of that).

I wonder what is happening to Melisandre now as Mance is in the hands of Ramsay :blushing:

[Viserys_The Transformed]

I wonder what is happening to Melisandre now as Mance is in the hands of Ramsay :blushing:

Because the person controlling also experiences what ever is felt by the Object(the Controlled)

[Manderly Chef]

If Mance is in the hands of Ramsay... we'll know for sure if Mel starts screaming "Mance, Mance it rhymes with dance."

[Gendels Children]

Not to mention the whole greyscale thing with Val. That quick dialogue between her and Jon just screamed of significance. I wonder if we will learn more things about it as it makes its way through JonCon.

I have a theory that Shireen has infected Patchface with the greyscale (clearly due to them being so close) and that through Patchface-not Shireen- the greyscale will spread. as we all know Mel see skull around Patchface and it scares her. in her chapter also he notes when talking about a vision of Jon, that the skulls are death....could happen

[mrlukeduke]

Thanks for necro! Just read the whole thing tonight and this thread was fun for me. Here are my thoughts (no theories, just connections and metaphor)...

To start we'll have some fun. On rubies:

Franklyn Flowers laughed. “I like it. Sail west, not east. Leave the little queen to her olives and seat Prince Aegon upon the Iron Throne. The boy has stones, give him that.”

Hahaha, GRRM is laughing at us! The boy literally does have stones ("magic" rubies). Now see:

When all of them began to speak at once, Griff knew the tide had turned. This is a side of Aegon I never saw before.

The rubies employ tricks of light ("never saw before"). Like Melisandre appearing to Jon Snow as Ygritte (more extreme). Or like Loras using them (much more subtle: knight in shining armor, he dazzles people).

The Prince of Dragonstone had never trusted him as he had trusted Arthur Dayne. Harrenhal was proof of that. The year of the false spring.

As in, springing from one's horse? Maybe not. Did Arthur Dayne (and perhaps Selmy) take a dive? False spring.

Rhaegar wore his infamous rubies in the jousts. Factoid: rubies are second only to diamond and moissanite in terms of hardness. Ok more than a bit vague, but bear with me...

The Lord of Casterly Rock made such an impressive figure that it was a shock when his destrier dropped a load of dung right at the base of the throne.

Note he is dressed in gold when this happens. Then the shitting. OK this is probably just because I love Tywin scenes; no rubies yet. It's a subtle allegoric prelude to:

the oft repeated jape about his father was just another lie, Lord Tywin Lannister in the end did not shit gold.

But wait! Let's get back to rubies shall we? There's:

the roaring lion that crowned his helm had ruby eyes

Which I suspect is connected to the infamous legend of Tywin's death-gaze. When he fixes his eyes upon you, he has power/control over the situation. But Tywin's a Lannister, so it's metaphorical if not subtly magical.

Anyway, some random late-night thoughts about ruby theories posted:

Robert slew Rhaegar. A poetic end, since Robert was the prince's competition for Lyanna. If the rubies bore some magic, why was Rob not affected? Love power?! No. Well, I used to think it might have been to do with the time of the battle or something. No sun, less ruby/light power. In actual battles, unlike a poncy joust, shimmering light trickery would have little effect. But then I came up with a wild idea:

I think rubies gain power around dragons. Mel is more powerful at the Wall, yes. But she's also close to Jon Snow, who she sees in her fires (not to mention she's a Red Witch and real dragons are back). Jon is also a particularly powerful (we suspect) "dragon" lord, descended from the man himself.

So, going back to Bob: Baratheons have dragon blood. Rubies might work for them too (one could argue I suppose the effect would be enhanced by two dragons, but then enhanced for whom? Bob or Rhae-Rhae?). I say it cancels its effect, which is minimal anyway (assuming magical or tricksy properties). The golden stags are also descended from Storm Kings who once had power in the Riverlands (and Bob fought on the Green Fork of the Trident after all, where the Old Gods have power, near the Isle of Faces / God's Eye). More power to him. Literally. Metaphorically. Whatever.

Further, Rhaegar lived in a time of diminished magic (e.g. no actual dragons) but Rhaegar is "blood of" the dragon. And guess what? Aegon has a similar powers (of persuasion, In ADwD) with his conveniently placed rubies over the Golden Company (historically tied to dragon lords).

There's also the following symmetry: when Rob smashes Rhaegar, he knocks off his rubies and the rubies obviously represent blood. He bleeds the "dragon's" stones – but he's also ending Targ bloodline (he thinks). And lo, Stannis also conquers Dragonstone (first/final seat of House Targ) though he doesn't want it. Dragon stones, Dragonstone. Nice symmetry GRRM!

I have a million of these pointless little links buzzing about my head now! Damn this thread. GRRM is a great writer, truly. He writes in metaphor and symbolism and allegory. So you can't say one thing affects the other, any more than the other way around. Who's the puppeteer? Hence all the wild theories.

I think that it's just a perpetual motion machine of a book, a true song and dance; there is no initial trigger. Magic is trickery and coincidence. But the coincidences appear strongly magical. Winter brings the Great Other, but the Great Other brings Winter. Both and neither. It's just a weird world of allegoric serendipity told through tangential fractal tales of comedy and tragedy.

Final tangent: I hope the Kettleblacks are GRRM playing on the idiom: the pot calling the kettle black. Then in future they'll be guilty of the very same thing of which they accuse another.

[Lux in Tenebris]

"The memory was still bitter. Old Lord Whent had announced the tourney shortly after a visit from his brother, Ser Oswell Whent of the Kingsguard. With Varys whispering in his ear, King Aerys became convinced that his son was conspiring to depose him, that Whent’s tourney was but a ploy to give Rhaegar a pretext for meeting with as many great lords as could be brought together. Aerys had not set foot outside the Red Keep since Duskendale, yet suddenly he announced that he would accompany Prince Rhaegar to Harrenhal, and everything had gone awry from there.

If I had been a better knight ... if I had unhorsed the prince in that last tilt, as I unhorsed so many others, it would have been for me to choose the queen of love and beauty ..."

I took this as Barristan taking a dive for Rhaegar, since we know that Barristan beat Rhaegar before at Storm's End. The wording that Barristan says that "if he had been a better knight" not better jouster or the like, that taking a dive was un-knightly, but he had to do it because Rhaegar asked/told him to.

The jousting was over five days. Enough time to arrange dives as needs be. The others that we know that Rhaegar beat were: Yohn Royce, Brandon Stark, and Arthur Dayne. Dayne would take a dive for Rhaegar, and Brandon was possibly an indifferent jouster (jousting seems much less practiced in the North). That leaves only Royce, who would have been tough, but beatable.

This ties in with another longer, crazier theory I am nursing about there being two coups of Aerys going on at the same time: the Stark-Tully-Baratheon marriage one and one of Rhaegar's devising. At Harrenhal, that Rhaegar was trying to talk the Stark-Tully-Baratheon into joining him, but Robert would get on board.

There is the specific mention of Lonmouth (Rhaegar's ex squire and good friend) and Robert B. drinking it up at Harrenhal, maybe Lonmouth trying to convince Robert.

And that Rhaegar arranged to have the Baratheon-Stark wedding delayed to allay fears/reaction from Aerys, by having Lyanna come to court to season her to politics, but then R-L fall in love and all hell breaks loose.

This should be in the crackpot thread.

I don't see why people take issue with Rhaegar's ability to be an exemplary jouster. In the tourney's we know about, he finished 2nd to Barristan and 1st in Harrenhall. By most accounts he was an excellent on a horse and had received top notch training nearly his entire life. I think people look too much into his bookish youth, he is still described as being a boy when he realized he must be a warrior, and with committed training from the best, he would make up for any lost time with ease.

Another key here that makes me thing people are stretching a little bit is that we have never seen glamour do anything but disguise someone. We don't know the possibilities of what this can do, but I haven't seen any clues from GRRM that one can use glamour for more than its current use in the text. At this point its quite a stretch.

That said....this thread really got me thinking. It's some interesting stuff, especially the focus GRRM puts on Rhaegar's rubies in the text.

[alienarea]

Some of Rhaegar's decisions are very questionable, to put it friendly. The rubies glamour his brain.

[the demon reach]

I disagree with the spearwife theory if only because it seems unlikely to be a thing anyone would do as a perceived practical political action. Its more likely Rickard or someone else helped him/her/them escape and the kidnapping was a Robert Baratheon spin. If you consider where she left from Winterfell And where she ended up Tower of joy 5 people can not cover that distance and hide there for over a year and not be recognised and found without help even counting the Daynes given that 4 out of 5 are celebrities and one is the daughter of a major lord who was crowed beautiful by the prince of the realm. given that Aerys, Varys, Doran, Rickard, Robert, Tywin and the tullys all Should be keeping an ear out for any word and so would their bannermen,resources and spies. Rickard is the only one who has the means to get them out of the north unseen by delaying the knowledge of her disappearance until she was out of the north. Possibly assisted and manipulated by Varys because if Doran knew where they were at any point he would have told the crown in an instant. To put this in context How is Rhaegar meant to kidnap a lords daughter in the Bael the bard way when he would need to go unrecognised and beat Robert and lyanna for the analogy to work and not get killed by nortthmen as they went through the north? Especally if he happened to have a different look which loses him the protection of being Rhaegar? They did not have a red priest to hide or change it for them. Or if Rhaegars ruby's were a glamour which I doubt how is Lyanna meant to get one as glamour's seem individualised?.It was winter mind.so you can't not seek shelter .

[Mithras]

What about Doran and Mellario?

“A strange and subtle folk, the Volantenes,” he [Doran] muttered, as he put the elephant aside. “I saw Volantis once, on my way to Norvos, where I first met Mellario. The bells were ringing, and the bears danced down the steps. Areo will recall the day.”

“I remember,” echoed Areo Hotah in his deep voice. “The bears danced and the bells rang, and the prince wore red and gold and orange. My lady asked me who it was who shone so bright.”