Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

The Bastard of Bolton

[Book Spoilers] Littlefinger/Cersei

Recommended Posts

I liked the scene, particularly the "oh, wait, I've changed my mind"-moment. But it did seem a bit reckless on LF's part to try to sort of brag about his power like that. His whole strategy basically builds on people not seeing him as a threat, why would he start threatening people then? But overall I really enjoyed it and I guess even a man like Petyr Baelish can slip and act on his emotions sometimes...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The only way I see it consistent with LF is his seeming inability to not make the jibe, even when it seems against his interests.

That said, this was several steps beyond that. I think we're supposed to see it as an example of how raw the Cat wound still is.

More, I think this was a more important scene for Cersei. As off as the scene played in terms of book-context, I think it played well for her tv character. One of the biggest challenges with interpreting a book to film is externalizing internal content, and I think this (and the slap) gave us a flash of her defensiveness and temper that isn't otherwise evident most of the time. Also, that it followed a dressing-down from Tyrion and by proxy her father; she's supposed to be upset.

I didn't really like the scene, and I think the 'power is power' thing could have been done without as much choreography, which made it seem a tad less realistic...but if you're not watching it with the priority of how it fits with the book, it's not horrible.

I do agree that LF's voice was off, too. Something about the whole scene seemed starched.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think we're supposed to see it as an example of how raw the Cat wound still is.

It's still raw? I guess that makes sense, tv show wise. In the first season I remember when Cat was leaving KL, Ned said something like, "He still loves you, you know?" That wasn't in the book. I think the show may be trying to show that he's still in love with Cat or something. In the books, it doesn't really seems like he gives a shit anymore, to be honest.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I really think they put this scene in as an opener for the turn of events to come with Littlefinger taking Sansa away. The viewers who haven't read the books won't have quite all the back story and details that readers have and the season won't have time to cover it all considering the immense amount of political detail the second book had in leading up to some fairly surprising turn of events in the end.

They're definitely portraying Lord Baelish as much more openly antagonistic (as with his constant verbal sparring with Varys) and so this slip with Cersei seemed as good a way as any to show the audience, in the opening episode, that things between the Queen and Littlefinger are definitely going to take a turn for the worse.

Also, I'm pretty certain non readers don't yet realize Cersei's downfall is on its way and so they're likely adding a lot more dramatic hints to that. Right now it looks like she's on top of her game, but the clever viewer will notice that her slip is showing a bit, even in that scene.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Also, I'm pretty certain non readers don't yet realize Cersei's downfall is on its way and so they're likely adding a lot more dramatic hints to that. Right now it looks like she's on top of her game, but the clever viewer will notice that her slip is showing a bit, even in that scene.

Exactly, it's setting the scene for things that are already occuring in the books.

I think another problem with this scene is that we know so little of LF in the books and, as he is a wonderfully interesting character, the fandom has produced quite an image of him as untouchable puppet-master who has made crossing the moral-line his personal hobby. HBO been given the task of interpreting a character who does not have much canon material regarding his inner thoughts or goals. It reminded us that LF is still only human and plays dangerously, which will make his actions in later seasons seem a lot more impressive. Not only that, but it gives him motive against Cercei (I hope I wasn't the only one who thought that he looked really angry), and as the books have taught us...when Littlefinger's pissed off, he get's very, very nasty (as Ned and Tyrion discover).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's still raw? I guess that makes sense, tv show wise. In the first season I remember when Cat was leaving KL, Ned said something like, "He still loves you, you know?" That wasn't in the book. I think the show may be trying to show that he's still in love with Cat or something. In the books, it doesn't really seems like he gives a shit anymore, to be honest.

I think he actually gives a lot of fucks, for example Sansa being Cat 2.0 or Lysa's death, he wants power and to "show it others" and IMO that comes from being belittled all his life, but the one thing that he could never get his hands on was Cat, I dont think he'll let go of that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ugh, this is my fifth attempt at posting a reply.

I want to be clear: the reason I dislike the scene is not because it's different from the books; it's because it's worse than the books. My favorite scene in S1 was Robert & Cersei's private dialogue. My second favorite scene was Tywin & Jaime's scene together. Both of them brought added dimensions to characters we barely saw in the books due to POV limitations. Likewise, I loved the Cersei/Joffrey scene in the throne room - it's inconsistent with their relationship in the books, but it works brilliantly on the show.

Cersei/Littlefinger, though, weakens both characters. It directly contradicts Littlefinger's brothel soliloquy in S1, and not in a good way. Instead of adding depth, it makes him a much more shallow character. Instead of "understanding who [Cersei] is" to get what he wants, he goads her with no apparent gain. Instead of showing him as the man he became, and how he was influenced by his childhood experience, they're showing him as the boy he once was, as if he never grew up and grew wiser. Cersei, on the other hand, is portrayed as the exact opposite of the person she portrayed in the scene they just cut from. That's not depth, and that's not complexity; that's a writer unable to decide what he wants.

Moreover, there were several easy, subtle changes that could have gotten all the points they wanted to get across without losing the characterizations:

1. Littlefinger should have been the source on where Robert's bastards are hiding (especially since he already likely is, in both the show and the books).

2. When Cersei asks him to find Arya, he can allude to the incest without threatening her, but instead move the subject over to the things he did know, like where Robert's bastards were. This serves as direct contrast to what he told Ned in S1, where he said he only knew that Robert had more than Ned.

3. He can also make a point of driving a wedge between Tyrion and Cersei by alluding (possibly truthfully) that Tyrion seems more interested in using those rumors to enhance his own position rather than protecting Cersei's (and Joffrey's). This points directly to Tyrion's closing to Cersei earlier in the episode ("It must be strange for you... being the disappointing child."

4. He can also make a power play against Varys by pointing out that he is telling her where the bastards are, but Varys doesn't. In the books, Varys takes care to protect Robert's bastards; it remains to be seen if this is also true in the show, but it would add a lot of depth if they kept that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think people are somewhat essentializing Littlefinger to make him out as smarter than he actually is. Keep in mind:

1. Littlefinger built a criminal conspiracy on an easily-disprovable lie. Had either Ned or Catelyn checked what the bet was at Joffrey's nameday tourney - and this was a public bet, Varys, Renly, and all the other members of the court would have seen and heard the bet being made - then Littlefinger is immediately exposed and loses any ability to steer the Starks where he needs to be. While Littlefinger is a planner, he's not as patient as Varys; he's a gambler and prone to taking huge risks. Obliquely mentioning this rumor is a risk he takes, to see if he can exert pressure on the Queen.

2. Despite trying to steer Ned, he can't stop himself from needling him. This is an inherent part of Littlefinger's character - he's a small, bright boy in a world where boys are supposed to be jocks, and he resents any man who fits into Brandon's image, and needs to feel superior to everyone even when he's not. Are you really telling me that that man when he's just had his deepest, darkest emotions shoved in his face, doesn't snark back?

3. Littlefinger tends to underestimate people around him. This is a guy who said "I have Varys' balls in my hand" - how big a miscalculation can you get?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The scene was most shocking on my first watch of the episode, and even then, while I didn't like it, I attempted to moderate my response. Now, I still don't really like it in the context of Littlefinger's character, but I get what they're trying to do. I also do not think it will hurt him much in the long run, and I believe it could be a meaningful scene to refer to in the future as Littlefinger gains more real power and prominence in the series.

The "power" line had the nice benefit of being both entertaining and showing Cersei for what she is in an episode which otherwise cast her in a more sympathetic light. It was really a great scene for the character of Cersei--just not for my love of Littlefinger. Thankfully, I'm cognizant of my Littlefinger man-crush, so I try to avoid overreacting to any slight against him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think he actually gives a lot of fucks, for example Sansa being Cat 2.0 or Lysa's death, he wants power and to "show it others" and IMO that comes from being belittled all his life, but the one thing that he could never get his hands on was Cat, I dont think he'll let go of that.

That doesn't mean he still loves her though, and my point was that the show seems to be pushing that on us for some reason. However, I definitely agree that his feelings for Cat when he was young left a deep impression on him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think he still loves her at all. I think it was a blow to his ego and he still feels that and reacts similarly to similar circumstances. If the show follows the books here, Ned was probably misinterpreting this.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'll never understand why this particular scene hit such a sore spot with a lot of you. Littlefinger is not a god. Yes, he's a master manipulator and a "true player in the game of thrones" but I've always seen him as a second rate Varys. His motivations come from emotion rather than sheer power play like Varys. Whenever you do something out of emotion and past slights you leave room for error. YES...I agree that it was a little out of character for him BUT its not so detrimental that it took me out of the scene. As far as Cersei goes, it is exactly something that she would do. Like I've stated in other threads, she wields power like a sledgehammer. She is blunt, brutal, unsubtle and constantly overplays her hand. Bottom line I just thought this scene was f*cking cool as hell and I'm glad they added it because it's such a great contrast between the two characters and illuminates Cersei's mindset perfectly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'll never understand why this particular scene hit such a sore spot with a lot of you.

It didn't hit a sore spot, I'll just never watch another GoT episode again if they desecrate LF's perfect, Godly character :devil: :devil: :devil: :devil: :devil: :devil: :devil:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Am i really the only one who is brokenhearted about the possibility of no Great Jon or Pyp this season :crying: , i mean come on what is Westeros without Great Jon and Pyp!.

just realized this is the wrong thread HAR HAR HAR.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'll never understand why this particular scene hit such a sore spot with a lot of you.

Action-wise, it was up there with West Side Story.

And speaking of unrealistic plot devices, have you SEEN West Side Story?

Ok, scene: guy runs to the back of a latino building project, maybe 200 windows looking down on him...yells "Maria!"

And one girls comes out.

ONE.

I mean, come on. Power might be power, but Marias are a dime a dozen in Latin 1950's projects.

(I think I'm done.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's still raw? I guess that makes sense, tv show wise. In the first season I remember when Cat was leaving KL, Ned said something like, "He still loves you, you know?" That wasn't in the book. I think the show may be trying to show that he's still in love with Cat or something. In the books, it doesn't really seems like he gives a shit anymore, to be honest.

Hmmm.

Dunno. I get a Freudian vibe from him a lot. The idea that this is his one sore spot...or, this plus inability to turn down a bad line...it kinda works for me. It explains why Sansa, for example.

I didn't like the scene, but I can get what they thought they were thinking.

I really should be drunk to write like this.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I really should be drunk to write like this.

Yah, you should. That's what I do :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yah, you should. That's what I do :D

Years from now my sponsor will want a word with you.

(Don't have one yet, but this could be my Gladwell point.)

(*hic*)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I do really like Lena Headey's acting - brow-wrinkling and all. I think it suits the character of Cersei down to a tea. I think we get brow-wrinkling because it's the usually the highest level of anger Cersei allows herself to display in front of a group (in the book Cersei is often portrayed to be polite to those around her whilst secretly wanting to slap them fiercely). Of course she fires up and loses control all the time, but it's usually when she's alone with someone (especially Tyrion). I also see Cersei as a woman who is very conscious of her appearance, and it's fitting to me that she'd have several 'faces' that she'd put on: the defiant head lift, the glare, the brow wrinkling, the dismissive hand... Cersei likes to appear a certain way, and I think Lena's picked this up perfectly.

Some women, especially vain women, have a variety of expressions they like to put on display. In real life and in the book.

As to Littlefinger (in my opinion one of the most interesting characters in the book and the most dangerous - more so than Varys/Illyrio), my main problem with this scene is WHAT HAS HAPPENED TO AIDAN GILLAN? I didn't notice it so much in the council scene, but in the Cersei/LF scene Aidan looks tired and plumper in the face, and his voice has changed completely. Before he had a thin but distinct snakey voice; now he sounds like he's got a harelip or cold. Is it the fake moustache he's wearing? He both looks and sounds weaker, imo not a fitting tribute to LF.

Don't get me wrong, I love Aidan Gillan, but I love the Aidan Gillan of series 1 first and foremost.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×