Women, Men, SFF part deux

[Galactus]

Heart of Iron - Ekaterina Sedia:

It's got a stupid plot, stupid characters, and it's so desperately 'feminist' and 'non-western' that it becomes boring condescending tripe with no capacity for any genuine historical or contemporary engagement with those issues. No, sorry, if you're from St Petersburg you're still not actually Asian or non-white, despite shoehorning in anachronistic authorial lectures about how Russian is actually so like totally not western and they only think they are because western imperialism made them think that. I know it's terribly uncool to be white and western, but someone must.

To be fair, it's not *that* anachronistic. There was all sorts of weirdo intellectual strains in Russia (not just Russia, admittedly, at the time)

Heart of Iron - Ekaterina Sedia:

It's got a stupid plot, stupid characters, and it's so desperately 'feminist' and 'non-western' that it becomes boring condescending tripe with no capacity for any genuine historical or contemporary engagement with those issues. No, sorry, if you're from St Petersburg you're still not actually Asian or non-white, despite shoehorning in anachronistic authorial lectures about how Russian is actually so like totally not western and they only think they are because western imperialism made them think that. I know it's terribly uncool to be white and western, but someone must.

I don't disagree on the plot (although I found it dull rather than actually offensive, but then, I have low opinion of alt-history in general) but the idea of russians as "asians" isn't actually something she picked out of thin air: It was one of those weird intellectual strains that russians seem so fond of.

[Grack21]

Okay; what would make you change your mind?

Would a bunch of PoC telling you that it did offend them do so? How about years of it being used as such? How about it being used by racists as racial slurs? All of those thing I pulled out for Watts; I'm happy to bring 'em up here. My point to him - and to you, now - is why stick up for it? Why bother? Why not simply say 'you're right, I'm sorry, I should have called you a shitstain fuckwit asshat not worth my time'?.

Still waiting for any sort of, you know, EVIDENCE of this.

And what the hell is a PoC?

[Galactus]

Still waiting for any sort of, you know, EVIDENCE of this.

And what the hell is a PoC?

Comparing non-whites to animals is kind of a Thing.

[Kalbear]

Person of Color.

Grack, I'll see if I can find the time, but I went through this with Peter Watts already. You can go through the various comments there. Or maybe here; it spanned two topics.

[Callan S.]

I see it as one of those dramatic movie voiceovers - "They all battled misogyny...But only Bakker battled REAL MISOGYNY. On his blog."

That is funny, even though I wonder just what high a standard people are judging him by? I mean, if we just like to have a dig at authors, okay, then it's just a dig for the satisfaction of that. And not that serious for it.

[Galactus]

That is funny, even though I wonder just what high a standard people are judging him by? I mean, if we just like to have a dig at authors, okay, then it's just a dig for the satisfaction of that. And not that serious for it.

I think we're judging him by the claims he makes about himself and his MIssion.

[Grack21]

Yeah, to paraphrase from a topic long past, Bakker has "lost his shit".

[Sci-2]

Jeminsin - who Moon absolutely eviscerates in her reviews - had the best response. She thought Bakker's blog posts merited much of the backlash, but also noted she felt Moon does pretty much what Ran accuses her of though she did differentiate between being mean and getting rape threats.

She even admitted that Moon had a point in the critiques of her books.

Given just how critical Moon was of 100,000 kingdoms it was incredibly classy/mature IMO.

[Nukelavee]

Y'know, comparing whites to animals is kind of a thing, too.

Rabid animal IS like asshole, dude- It's been applied to every race and creed on teh planet.

Seriously.

Here's what I don't get, folks. This topic seems pretty open- why the hell does every thread here end up on Bakker?

Gonna tell you a secret- There are people who have never even heard of him, or opened a book. Do you really think he has that much influence on people?

Now you made me forget my shit I thought up.

You'll all rue this day. You really will.

[Sci-2]

Here's what I don't get, folks. This topic seems pretty open- why the hell does every thread here end up on Bakker?

I'm more than willing to have this thread turn into a discussion about the Wire. ;-)

[Edda van Heefmstra Ruston]

In this case, it's because Bakker got and stayed involved in the discussion being referenced, so it's germane to the topic. Even Scalzi eventually declared ROH/Bakker (that one conflict, not the two individually) off-limits on his blog, though, because it does have a tendency to overwhelm the rest of the point.

[Grack21]

I'm more than willing to have this thread turn into a discussion about the Wire. ;-)

NO

[Callan S.]

I think we're judging him by the claims he makes about himself and his MIssion.

Well I'm looking at his blog and it seems from what he said himself he basically had a human moment and erred. I'm just wondering if he's being judged as if everyones always as cool and calm as Clint Eastwood all the time?

[TheValyrianDragonlord]

Anyone else think Bakker's influence online and this board in particular far outstrips his actual sales? I remember Wert saying something about how some extremely popular books like Gail Z Martin's stuff never gets discussed on here while Bakker who's your typical midlister drives the conversation.

I kind of wonder if a large part of Bakker's sales comes from being exposed to this forum.

This is a bit rude to ask but does anyone have access to Bookscan data? I know Mamatas said his relatively few sales is typical of being a midlist writer but what does that actually mean? I'm going to be pissed if the Unholy Consult is his last book because that means he'll never finish the Second Apocalypse.

[Linda]

I get the sense that some people will label just about any insult as racist or misogynist if the target of said insult happens to be anything other than white or male, and especially if the target is a non-white woman. Then its a free double whammy; anything you say is suddenly not one but two isms.

As far as I am concerned, it is usually a lot of bullshit and people throwing accusations around that you're not allowed to disagree with. Oh no, if one of the self-appointed Internet PC Police says that you said something racist, you did. No ifs and no buts.

[Sci-2]

Anyone else think Bakker's influence online and this board in particular far outstrips his actual sales?

I think it's the opposite - I think he sells more than he makes splashes online. At the end of the day, this is all tempest in tea-cup stuff.

Also for all his foibles and internet silliness, Bakker is talented. He has some of the most interesting metaphysics, stakes, and characters in all of fantasy. The reason his works are discussed are because they deserve to be.

If anything, he should put this silliness behind him and go balls-2-walls in order to finish The Unholy Consult and then the final piece of Apocalypse-Deux.

[Edda van Heefmstra Ruston]

Well I'm looking at his blog and it seems from what he said himself he basically had a human moment and erred. I'm just wondering if he's being judged as if everyones always as cool and calm as Clint Eastwood all the time?

I think he's probably being judged as anyone is, who loses their cool and then does not come back to the "scene" of the misstep and apologise. Why should people check TPB for an apology, rather than in the discussions with those whom he thinks he owes one?

Also, there's "having a human moment" and there's "having the same argument for eight months running."

[Nukelavee]

Every time I snap and point out the Bakkernessoustistity of a topic, Sciborg pulls out the Wire.

I think he's playing me.

[Grack21]

I think you'd be surprised how little of scifi/fantasy readers give two shits about the internet.

It's like when my friend opened a local anime store a while back. We found out 99 percent of the people who buy anime in the US HATE SUBTITLES and in fact series released subtitles only have been known to fail for that reason.

What I'm saying is, no matter how big you think your group.forum.whatever may be, its barely an even noticable slice of the pie.

[Sci-2]

I should note that Bakker should also keep writing fantasy, maybe SFF SciFi. I haven't read Disciple but Neuropath - based on the pages I didn't skip over - was awful.