Women, Men, SFF part deux

[Arthmail]

But dehumanising and demeaning people by caling them mad dogs, attack dogs or some other type of angry animal is a pretty much universal form of abuse - its not in any way unique to how non-whites and women are talked down to. I agree, I mean that tone and style of addess does nothing for me, at least not in the context of this debate and its not going to win over the opposition but i think thats missing the point. That style of address is all about rallying the troops, creating dividing lines and aiming to create a public debate (a mass debate if you will). It's not an approach designed to win people over or to persuade it is deliberately prevocative with the aim of spreading the debate. They are effectively saying 'this aggression will not stand'. Or if you prefer it is suffragettes rather than suffragists.

I suppose i'm immune to the notion of calling someone a rabid animal as being a bad thing. And rallying the troops in this manner does nothing to spread debate. I learned more in five minutes on Tiger Beatdown than i have in the last month or however long of glancing occassionaly at ROH.

If you back people into a corner, they will not listen for love or money. And there will always be people that hate, that will look down on your movement or a group of people no matter what. People whose opinions you cannot change. But others, the middle ground that have not yet learned of the wider implications of any given issue, they will not take to the screaming as well.

And there is a cynical part of me that looks at the screaming of Moon as a way to garner page counts. In my mind, it is little different than the fake rage of Fox News, or the idiocy of some religious figure frothing about the gays.

[Lummel]

I think this is...nearsighted. I'm a woman, ...So can I not be a feminist? There are lots of things I will never know and that I never want to know. Gender affects me because it affects everyone. Yes, men too.

Yes and no.

I mean yes because as described in a gen chat thread distinct gender defined roles and expectations are a trap and a limitation for both men and women. So yes the notion of gender in your society affects everybody and looking round and about the world pretty much in a negative way.

I also agree with Arthmail the differnce of experience but also the potential of experience seems important to me, you know the difference between 'that could happen to someone I know' and 'that could happen to me' also its complicated by notions of possession (MY sister, MY friend, MY woman could be discrimated against) you know what am I indignant about - injustice or wrong doing to MY people, but this might be my natural lack of optimism and there do seem to be men who are perfectly happy to call themselves feminists and women who are happy to accept that.

[Lyanna Stark]

Yet your life has, however marginally, been shaped by your gender. Mine never has. At no point, or at least none that i can think of. Nor is it likely to. And gender effects everyone, sure. But as much as i am aware of it, i've never experienced it. I can support the notion of feminism, but i think intellectually i cannot accept male feminists because they can never experience the world as women have. Not that women are all delicate flowers or anything, but i simply cannot gain firsthand experience. I just can't help but think that as much as men try to be feminists, they will somehow get it wrong.

Yes, you can actually.

Buy any large MMORPG, create a female character with a female name, and throughput, pretend to be female. People will speak to you as a female and they will treat you like a female. Correct them when they refer to you as "he" with "she". Observe results. It will hardly give you a key to all things women as women are diverse and different too, but if you want to be interacted with as if you were you, but a woman, it can work.

I do the opposite: I often pretend to be male.

Regarding the other Bakker stuff, I had a long post thought out, but I feel a bit of Bakker fatigue. :lol:

EDIT: Cos I fail at quoting the right bit, sorry.

[Datepalm]

Thats my point - there is no such thing as 'experiencing the world the way women have'. Women have pretty diverse experiences. A great deal of them overlap with yours. I also don't think theres 'getting it wrong' - well, Ok, i'm lying. Clearly, I think Jay Lake is getting it wrong. But I also think...Sarah Palin is getting it wrong, and hey, she's a woman. (assuming she isn't a robot.) What I mean is that I don't think feminism is some super complex ineffable mysterious thing to be considered like some vague utopian aspiration, forever out of reach. Jay Lake is building a complex edifice that has bells and whistles of feminism on it, but he's missed out on the foundation - women=people(=men). Nail that down, and I think you're good. I can think of plenty of men who's feminism i'm just totally fine with.

[Arthmail]

I think it comes down to one's definition of feminism. Personally I regard it as the notion that men and women are equal, an attitude that strikes me as broadly uncontroversial. (Yes, I know, there are an assortment of different flavours of feminism. Frankly, I think they're overcomplicating something that should be fairly simple).

Well, according to Wiki i'm completely fucking wrong on feminism. But i still stand by the notion that men just fuck things up, but this might be my natural bias talking.

[Shryke]

Yes, you can actually.

Buy any large MMORPG, create a female character with a female name, and throughput, pretend to be female. People will speak to you as a female and they will treat you like a female. Correct them when they refer to you as "he" with "she". Observe results. It will hardly give you a key to all things women as women are diverse and different too, but if you want to be interacted with as if you were you, but a woman, it can work.

I do the opposite: I often pretend to be male.

Oh please. We all know you wag your virtual vag around for free loot. Don't lie.

[Lummel]

...And there is a cynical part of me that looks at the screaming of Moon as a way to garner page counts. In my mind, it is little different than the fake rage of Fox News, or the idiocy of some religious figure frothing about the gays.

Yup, I agree with that, I think throughout the media if you take a stand use big powerful language and you attract attention but it does I feel spread the debate and change the terms of the debate too. One of the 'rape' threads in the book forums (not the most recent one but a couple back) linked to the Moon article on GRRM and one of the posters took up the arguements from there. But it wasn't a point of view, it was a whole different way of reading the book (OK different to my way of thinking) and clearly had a totally different bunch of assumptions to those that I hold about the author and what he intended.

[Arthmail]

Yea, my best friend took a female character in WOW and was treated differently. When they found out he was a he, and not a she, he was booted from his guild. So i suppose that tangentially i can feel the effects. And i suppose if i look deeper into the role of males in society, i can accept that my life has been shaped by my gender, at least in terms of how i am expected to act and be.

But i become incredibly leery of any man that says he's a feminist. If he says he supports equality, that is different, but as soon as a guy starts saying he's a feminist, i doubt for some reason.

I suppose that in my writing, as in my life, i just look at everyone as the same. I have a hard time regarding my wife, or my east Indian friends for example, as anything other than people, and i don't distinguish them as being anything but by adding some sort of qualifer.

[Shryke]

I agree, I mean that tone and style of addess does nothing for me, at least not in the context of this debate and its not going to win over the opposition but i think thats missing the point. That style of address is all about rallying the troops, creating dividing lines and aiming to create a public debate (a mass debate if you will). It's not an approach designed to win people over or to persuade it is deliberately prevocative with the aim of spreading the debate. They are effectively saying 'this aggression will not stand'. Or if you prefer it is suffragettes rather than suffragists.

I don't think it's about "spreading the debate" so much as it is about generating a group think atmosphere of other people to cheer you and yours on. To call it a debate is giving it far too much credit most of the time. It's about rage against, not discussion. It's the age old strategy of creating an enemy to forge community.

"He disagreed with me. How dare he! Hold on, he used the word 'rabid animal'? That's bigoted! Yes, I swear it is. Burn the heretic!"

[Lummel]

Yes, you can actually.

Buy any large MMORPG, create a female character with a female name, and throughput, pretend to be female. People will speak to you as a female and they will treat you like a female. Correct them when they refer to you as "he" with "she". Observe results. ...

Thats true. I'm interested now that our gender and location isn't shown on the left hand panel under our names and (lack of) avatars if you are noticing a difference in how we are all interacting the board, I mean particularly down in the book forums where there are enouh new people who don't know what gender the rest of us are currently pretending to have.

[Lummel]

Yea, my best friend took a female character in WOW and was treated differently. When they found out he was a he, and not a she, he was booted from his guild.

Now that is funny. They were presumably quite happy with him pretending to be an elf or a troll but a woman - no that's just too mind bending, too transgressive!

[Datepalm]

But i become incredibly leery of any man that says he's a feminist. If he says he supports equality, that is different, but as soon as a guy starts saying he's a feminist, i doubt for some reason.

Seems like a weird definition to me, tbh. Feminism is an ideology. Its a thing you believe. It's a not a lifestyle choice or a culture or a personal identity (and if you think it is, THEN I think you're doing it wrong. Which isn't to say I don't think a lot of people are doing it wrong.) If you tell me you believe something, then I'm probably going to believe you. (Unless you write a ten thousand page book that contradicts what you're saying, then I might have some questions.)

[Shryke]

Now that is funny. They were presumably quite happy with him pretending to be an elf or a troll but a woman - no that's just too mind bending, too transgressive!

Not quite. I can see how they'd

The thing is, in an MMO, you are never really pretending to be your character. (unless you are an RPer, who are explicitly a different group from most players) You are still you, just playing a character. Often multiple ones in fact. In a guild, this is especially true and who you are is well known. Or supposed to be anyway.

You can roll a female as a male and if they know you are a male, no one will bat an eye or treat you differently. (the people who don't know you are male will, of course, treat you like a women and thus different) But everyone still knows who you are, not your character. If you pretend you are actually a women though, that's a whole different story and if you play along with that in certain situations or for long enough, people will feel deceived when they find out the truth.

Of course, no clue about the extent of the situation Arthmail was referring to, so it's unclear how much of the above applied here. But the character you roll is distinct from who you are to other members of your guild and lying about who you are will certainly be looked at differently then just, like, rolling a female character as a male.

[Lummel]

I don't think it's about "spreading the debate" so much as it is about generating a group think atmosphere of other people to cheer you and yours on. To call it a debate is giving it far too much credit most of the time. It's about rage against, not discussion. It's the age old strategy of creating an enemy to forge community...

Maybe I do give it too much credit. But then it is part of a debate, just not a debate with the likes of me, its a debate amongst people who are broadly sympathetic to her views about tactics, attitudes and who their heroes and villians are. It is Suffragettes versus Suffragists. She is having a debate with her readers and telling them you should be getting angry over this, she's not interested in having a reasonable discussion (in that format anyhow) with the likes of me - and why should she. She certainly does not oue me anything.

And since after reading some of her posts I feel embattled and beaten up I ought to allow myself to imagine that is possibly how she feels all the time reading these books written by white men from WEIRD countries.

But yes I agree it looks like the same kind of discourse that we see coming from the USA over abortion or same sex-marriage and yes that does leave me uncomfortable.

[Prince Alexander]

Yes, you can actually.

Buy any large MMORPG, create a female character with a female name, and throughput, pretend to be female. People will speak to you as a female and they will treat you like a female. Correct them when they refer to you as "he" with "she". Observe results. It will hardly give you a key to all things women as women are diverse and different too, but if you want to be interacted with as if you were you, but a woman, it can work.

Confession: I did this back when WoW just came out. I had a male hunter who raided with vent and female warrior who was in another guild and raided silent/chat only. I didn't specifically say that I was a girl, but I sort of pointed towards it and never denied it when it was assumed. I didn't take any handouts (plenty were offered), but did take advantage of preferential treatment on being first-picked into guild dungeon runs (back then dungeons were actually somewhat hard to complete and organize and good guild groups were important for farming things like Quel Serrar in DM). I was also complimented on my tanking. It was like "Wow, I've seen a girl heal but never tank so well" . Now, I'm not all that good, but the content was damn simple back (simple to understand at least) then, when it started getting more difficult and reaction-based, like quick taunts on Ebonroc or Firemaw, I started slacking. This got noticed, and I heard things like "yeah, let's not have a girl tank pls" from a few of the typical kiddie whiners. I voluntarily switched to DPS and kicked ass at that (thanks OP 1.0 warriors!), and got "Wow, I've never seen a girl #1 on dps". Eventually there was more pressure for me to get on vent, and I changed guilds and applied as a guy, got server first or second Ashkandi and mostly quit raiding to get FM set. Folks over on horde side still assumed I was a girl with the flashiest gear on the server and a fan literally followed me and made video about me, which he then released with a soundtrack of "passing by like Lady Godiva" by Queen, where around 10 hordies beat on me shieldwalled in AB, giving me first death after 39-0 streak. The video was uploaded to either youtube or google videos, but then was lost. Years later I returned to the server offering 100k to recover it... people remembered it but noone had it :( Anyways, got carried off a bit, sorry for the tangent!

[PaulineMRoss]

Confession: I did this back when WoW just came out. (etc)

I'm going to get my daughter to translate this into English for me (don't speak WOWese, but it sounds fascinating).

On the topic of whether men can really experience what it's like to be a woman, Daniel Abraham has an interesting writing project going on. He's writing a short story about rape, although without actually mentioning the R word, for reasons which he explains. Best of all, he's writing it entirely in public. Every scene is posted on his blog, with his comments on what he's aiming for. Currently, the first draft is written and he's been getting critiques from other writers. It's an interesting exercise both as a man-writing-a-woman [eta: man writing the experience of a woman, actually, since the character is male] and simply as a writing-in-public project. It starts here:

http://www.danielabr...t-introduction/

[Kalbear]

Arthmail, many.feminist viewpoints believe that men can not be feminists for similar reasons that you describe - they can be at best feminist allies, because to them it is more important to establish and allow women to dialog about their experiences and viewpoints without men defining or dominating the conversation.

I'm not sure I fully buy into that, but I do think that far too often conversations about feminism and anti racism become dominated by white men talking. As an example, a poc says some term is offensive to them or racist, and a bunch of white guys start telling everyone how they don't understand why it is offensive, therefore it must not be.

Which is both silly for reasons you describe and fairly demeaning; "no, you should only be offended when I think it's okay".

[Lyanna Stark]

Not quite. I can see how they'd

The thing is, in an MMO, you are never really pretending to be your character. (unless you are an RPer, who are explicitly a different group from most players) You are still you, just playing a character. Often multiple ones in fact. In a guild, this is especially true and who you are is well known. Or supposed to be anyway.

I still think there is a special type of feeling of "betrayal" if it turns out a man pretends to be a woman. Conversely, there is rarely a problem with a woman pretending to be a man for a long period of time. That is seen as quite legit and understandable (there were 2-3 of these on my vanilla server during the first 1-2 years of WoW before speaking on ventrilo, teamspeak and skype became a must, all but one with male avatars and all of them in top guilds). Which in itself is an interesting observation. I'm not sure what it means, only that it is there.

Prince Alexander,

That's fascinating. I actually think virtual realities are amazingly interesting in that regards that we can actually pretend to be something we are not, and perceive a little bit of what it is to be viewed through that type of lens.

[Sci-2]

Shit, i can see sciborg 2 and Kalbear reading this topic. I feel like i have a double barrel shottie pointed at my head now.

Not really, especially since Moon agrees with you. She calls what she does "performance rage" and even asked her

readers if she should keep it up. Several readers demanded that she never drop the rage.

What's amazing to me is how Bakker and his bros missed Valente's point by a wide mile. Mamatas has referred to Bakker's posts as a "meltdown" and the "Someone was Mean to Me and I must Whine Tour". He's called Bakker a whiny crybaby who "bursts into tears" in various forms.

Yet no one feels the need to call Mamatas a rabid animal.

That's Valente's point. Her point about Watt's specifically is when authors participate in this, it invites the more dangerous sort of people in, the ones who throw around rape threats and push women by reminding them of their real life vulnerability. It's a warning,

"I can't rape you but if you talk like this in real life someone around you can and will."

Meanwhile guys will disagree with other guys in real life but cheer on the balls and bravado it takes to talk like Moon does.

I'll note Le Guin herself made some comment about ebooks and was referred to as an "old twat" and other darling names just for expressing her opinion.

Anyway, Moon herself sorta covers this in her post Mean Girls Deserve Nothing.

Do you know what you are implying when you derail with how Doyle is mean or has fucked up or whatever? You are saying, “Well, yes, she received death/rape threats, but…” as though there is a but, as though a but of whatsoever nature–some kind of caveat emptor–is required or appropriate.

But she was mean, but I don’t like her, but she’s fucked up, but she’s said offensive things, but her rhetoric scares me. All of these are provided as qualifiers… in a discussion… about how that same woman has received death and rape threats.

[Sci-2]

fuck, wrong thread.