Jaqen H'ghar: The Symmetry of Red and White, The Golden Tooth, Death in Harrenhal

[jon rr stark]

It means that, but it also clearly means that if the person is not in the proximity of a faceless man then it will take the time required for the FM to get there for it to happen.

True he will just travel by conventional means

[Elaena Targaryen]

Can we look at Weese's dog again? I have always fully accepted the basilisk blood as the means used by Jaqen but I want to be sure there is no other possibilites. ( I probably could look up an old thread I guess :shrug: ) Anyway...Arya is watching Lord Tywin and company leaving Harrenhal and she is desperate to find Jaqen to unsay and change the name because Arya realizes her mistake...

Arya ran down the twisting steps, her chores forgotten. She heard the rattle of chains as the portcullis was slowly lowered, its spikes sinking deep into the ground . . . and then another sound, a shriek of pain and fear. A dozen people got there before her, though none was coming any too close. Arya squirmed between them. Weese was sprawled across the cobbles, his throat a red ruin, eyes gaping sightlessly up at a bank of grey cloud. His ugly spotted dog stood on his chest, lapping at the blood pulsing from his neck, and every so often ripping a mouthful of flesh out of the dead man's face. Finally someone brought a crossbow and shot the spotted dog dead while she was worrying at one of Weese's ears. "Damnedest thing," she heard a man say. "He had that bitch dog since she was a pup."

Something must have been wrong for the dog to kill Weese but I question the behaivor after and maybe even before. This is the description of basilisk blood...

The waif put the tears to one side and opened a fat stone jar. "This paste is spiced with basilisk blood. It will give cooked flesh a savory smell, but if eaten it produces violent madness, in beasts as well as men. A mouse will attack a lion after a taste of basilisk blood." Arya chewed her lip. "Would it work on dogs?" "On any animal with warm blood."

Violent madness. Was the dog showing violent madness? Yes to kill and eat Weese I think so. But all of these people were surrounding the violent mad dog, while the violent mad dog was eating no less, and the dog showed no interest or concern at all. If a mouse will attack a lion then I would think the dog may continue to attack people, so would the dog really stop with only one? Also this seems to have happened right in the middle of all the commotion of Tywin's group leaving so again why would a mad animal single out one person?

Another thing is it sounds as if the basilisk blood may need to be cooked, and maybe with meat. So could Jaqen have already had some paste or did he need to prepare it himself? If he already had the paste how did he get to keep it in the black cells? If he prepared it himself, well that raises even more questions for me. Questions that may not get any answers I suppose. :shrug:

So any thoughts besides it was just basilisk blood and I need to stop reading too much into things?

[bemused]

This all makes me feel really discouraged about the possibility of discussing anything in a rational fashion on these threads.

Just step back for a minute..GRRM has said that magic will increase throughout the series , but will still have less magic at the end , than many have at the outset . If half these theories that are being expounded lately pan out ,you can throw George's statement out the window.

[Elaena Targaryen]

I found something interesting on Rorge and Biter in an old SSM

Question (from yours truly) what the hell is with Biter? Is he just a bad guy or is he something more....

George treated us to a never before heard back story of Rorge and Biter.....Rorge ran a dog and bear fighting place in Flea Bottom. Biter was an orphan whom Rorge grabbed up and raised ferally to fight in the pits.

I don't think this helps with any theory but I have never heard this before so I wanted to share this because I think it's nice to know some back story.

[bemused]

Thanks ! It hints that Jaqen probably always was separate from the duo..and it makes my suspicions as to how he came to be at Harrenhall seem a bit more likely..bonus !

That wouldn't fit too well with this Daario theory , though.

Unless, of course , Jaqen enlisted Biter to help with Weese ,and the dog was just taking advantage of the situation. ( I'm only half serious ..but it's possible )...so would theft of some poison from Qyburn .. Basilisk blood may not have been the agent, but may have been mentioned to remind us that FM have a deep knowledge of poisons ,and the method may be the important bit. these are things we know the FM are versed in, but we've yet to be given a hint that warging is among their talents.

[Bran Vras]

Can we look at Weese's dog again? I have always fully accepted the basilisk blood as the means used by Jaqen but I want to be sure there is no other possibilites. ( I probably could look up an old thread I guess :shrug: ) Anyway...Arya is watching Lord Tywin and company leaving Harrenhal and she is desperate to find Jaqen to unsay and change the name because Arya realizes her mistake...

Something must have been wrong for the dog to kill Weese but I question the behaivor after and maybe even before. This is the description of basilisk blood...

Violent madness. Was the dog showing violent madness? Yes to kill and eat Weese I think so. But all of these people were surrounding the violent mad dog, while the violent mad dog was eating no less, and the dog showed no interest or concern at all. If a mouse will attack a lion then I would think the dog may continue to attack people, so would the dog really stop with only one? Also this seems to have happened right in the middle of all the commotion of Tywin's group leaving so again why would a mad animal single out one person?

Another thing is it sounds as if the basilisk blood may need to be cooked, and maybe with meat. So could Jaqen have already had some paste or did he need to prepare it himself? If he already had the paste how did he get to keep it in the black cells? If he prepared it himself, well that raises even more questions for me. Questions that may not get any answers I suppose. :shrug:

So any thoughts besides it was just basilisk blood and I need to stop reading too much into things?

Hence we have two problems with the basilisk blood theory.

1) Where did it come from?

2) Why did the dog attack only its master?

About 1), I suggested uptrhead that Jaqen got it from Qyburn. We know that maesters have a training in poison (see prologue of ACoK) About 2), I could imagine that Weese had something on him put by Jaqen that triggered the attack (perhaps a smell, or a colour but I saw no sign of that).

You are right that, as it stands, the basilisk blood theory is incomplete. I still prefer it to the warging theory I suggested in the OP, but I am open minded about all this.

[Frey Pie]

Weese as far as i recall shares some of his food with his dog. Food hed promised Arya and when she was caught looking at him he hit her. Perhaps Basilisk blood work in a way that a higher concentration is needed for larger animals then smaller. Or perhaps it was thickened like Oberyn did to his poison. Therefore if it was in Weeses food he may have been a lil extra violent and so hit Arya but the poison worked slower on the dog because it ate less and so attacked Weese later? Sorry thats probably all wrong because i cant remember when everything happened and have no copy in college with me!

[jon rr stark]

The problem with the wraging theory is that Jaqen is standing above watching and alert as Arya looks up. From what we have seen of wraging the wragger is in a coma like state as they are not in their own body. Jaqen clearly is in his body as the dog is riping chunks out of wesses face.

[DragonSpawn]

Hey guys - cool thread.

Just to throw in my pennies worth... I don't think warging requires a full concious effort. I.e. being in a coma. Arya uses a cats eyes for example to replace her own when she cannot see. My main question is: Did the kindly man know Arya is a warg? He seems to know everything else about her just by reading her face - but he still asked how she knew it was him and Arya didn't tell him.

When Arya takes on her first new identity she feels the person in the skin... which the FM knew about and warned her about. This has remarkable similarities to Bran when he wargs his crow. It seems to me at least that the 'deeper' magic of using someones face is a warg-related skill. However, noone else we know of at present uses anything other than glamours. Even Jaquen. He may have received the same training as Arya but was never able to fully master the taking of someones face.. or for some reason it is not possible for him to do it?

Things i don't get:

Jacquen clearly was using a glamour as explained by the Kindly man to Arya - so if he was using the 'clothes' for example of his victim to help strengthen the glamour... then surely there should be a naked corpse somewhere in the Black Cells? That is unless - Jacquen had already claimed the identity and was then arrested.

But... If he's not a warg then why would Biter and Rorgue be so afraid of him? They are clearly afraid of something we don't know about... poisons and sword skills alone don't make sense as a valid reason to fear him. I always just assumed he could warg them ... and they didn't like it... Maybe Jacquen knew through some prophecy that he needed to go to the black cells.. (Q: Did Arya pass through the Black Cells when she was ear-wigging in on Varys / Illeryio ... i.e. could Jacquen have known about Arya as early as then and seen her potential? - her being very sneaky and all) ... and as the Jailer told Jamie - a log is kept of all people in and out... so if Jacquen made his own way into the Black Cells... again... what would have happened to the body of his victim? One crazy explanation that may fit is he killed the Lorathi prisoner in front of Rorgue and Biter... forced Biter to eat the body.... (they would probably be starving in those cells anyway) then used the Lorathi's clothes to create the glamour... chained himself up and waited... that would certainly put the fear of god into Rorgue and Biter... but that's pretty crackpot!

There is a similarity between the dog eating Wees' face and Biter eating Briennes face - maybe it's reading too much into it but could Jaquen have 'pushed' Biter into the Dog using a similar warging skill that Bran uses to 'push' Jon into Ghost?

Also, Jacquen was bound to Arya by the FM code essentially - which leads me to believe that him turning up in Harrenhall when he could easily have changed his face and disappeared to Oldtown, is not a coincidence... however, Arya being her typical self messed up his plans entirely - forcing him to abandon his face as he was clearly involved in the escape of the Northmen - and his distinctive hair was bound to get a mention in the story of the escape that followed.

So it seems likely to me that Jacquen already had his identity before he was arrested... he was on his way to complete his mission in Oldtown.... but got caught... he was assumed to be an assassin so was thrown into the Black cells to await the kings justice... What happened next was unplanned and thanks to Ned and Arya he is now free to complete his mission after a slight de-tour... I love Jacquens story but there are so many unanswered questions! :P

[brut]

Isn't it screaming obvious that SF = JH?

[DragonSpawn]

Isn't it screaming obvious that SF = JH?

The Braavosi involvement is always troubling - Syrio Talks like a FM - he used to be the first sword of Braavos and may have been there when the Dornish / Targ pact was made and witnessed by the Sealord of Braavos... giving the FM an deep insight into the sneaky history between those two, and possibly an incetive to meddle in the deeper affairs of the current global politics. However, Meryn Trant is alive and happily beating Sansa... and if Syrio wasn't killed and was thrown in the Black cells instead - how do you explain the body count being 3 in 3 out... and would that have to mean that "Syrio Forel" is an assumed identity?

[jsw2289]

The Symmetry of Red and White

Let's begin by the description of Jaqen

The name Jaqen H'ghar doesn't sound like any name we have seen in the Free Cities. I don't think we have met any other Lorathi, though. The language of Lorath seems to be similar to the language of Braavos, since Arya says

And later, Jaqen tells Arya,

So Jaqen is familiar with Braavos. Of course, he is suspected to be a Servant of the God with Many Faces. If so, he has stayed in the house of Black and White. The House of Black and White is set besides two proeminent buildings of Braavos, which are next to each other (Arya, AFfC).

So the colours of Jaqen's hair refer to the two great temples of Braavos, who are the immediate neighbours of the House of Black and White. Here are two religious allusions by Jaqen.

On first reading, I thought that Jaqen was a devotee of R'hllor. On second reading, I realized that Jaqen mentions the Red God only because the death of Biter, Rorge and Jaqen was to occur by fire. Hence there is not proof that Jaqen is specifically a follower of the Red religion. I believe he fits well with the Braavosi multireligious tradition. That seems confirmed by his oath:

The oath has two parts. First there is a fire component, and then a weirwood component. And we know that weirwood are related to the colour white. All this is compatible with hair colour again. However, we never saw another characer with red and white hair. The various Tyroshis with dyed hair we see have other styles.

Note: About this theory, I should thank Lummel for having , perhaps inadvertently, put me on track about the red/white symmetry, and especially Elaena Targaryen for her thread Howl at the Moon, which contains more speculations, including some personal suggestions on the red/white symmetry.

The Golden Tooth

Here is the description of Jaqen's second appearance.

Everybody seems to assume this coincides with the Alchemist at the Citadel.

I agree, but that is not the end of the story. Here is a description of a character scattered throughout ASoS and ADwD:

No specifically facial scar is ever mentioned. But the man wears a beard. Dyed hair prevent any discrepancy with hair colour.

The face of Daario Naharis coincides with Jaqen's second face. I hardly believe it hasn't been brought up before on these boards.

Now there are a number of problems. I don't necessarily say that Jaqen is Daario, especially since the Faceless men have a funny business with faces. But it's clear to me that all three faces are the same. I can imagine that Jaqen is the Alchemist. I can imagine that Jaqen is Daario. Both possiblities are equally likely, in my view. But it's not easy to imagine that the Alchemist is Daario, mainly because Daario was in Meereen before and after the Oldtown episode.

Here is what Jaqen told Arya when he departed:

So Jaqen did not go to the Citadel immediately apparently.

I would propose that Jaqen made three journeys 1) Jaqen went to Meereen as Daario, 2) then came to Oldtown as the Alchemist, and 3) returned to Meereen as Daario. A study of the timeline is in order. (I am aware it is a bit convoluted and I feel uneasy about it. I am completely open to another suggestion.)

Jaqen leaves Harrenhal near the middle of ACoK, Daario appears in ASoS at Yunkai. So there is no problem with the first journey he can even have spent time in the Free Cities to take orders, recruit Stormcrows etc

Daario is then with Dany until Meereen is conquered. Then Daario is sent for a long mission to the land of the Lamb men, I would suggest that he used that time to make a round trip to Meereen. I am aware that it is a long journey, and that we don't know how much time Daario is supposed to have spent with the Lamb men.

The journey 2) is allowed by the timeline. Indeed in the prologue of AFfC, tales of dragons in Meereen have reached Oldtown. So Daario could have travelled with these rumours. When the Alchemist is in Oldtown, Tywin is still not dead. It's not unreasonable to suppose that Tyrion and the Alchemist left Westeros at the same time. Daario came back to Meereen, after his third journey, he return of Daario happened exactly ninety days before Dany's marriage, and Tyrion arrived shortly before the marriage. But Tyrion has taken the long trip along the Rhoyne on the pole boat. A comparison with Quentyn's trip leads to a similar conclusion (Quentyn left earlier, and arrived earlier than Tyrion but he lingered in Volantis and in Astapor). There is enough time between the Fall of Meereen and the return of Daario to make the round trip to Oldtown. However, we don't know when Daario left in Meereen.

Moreover that raises another question. The mission with the Lamb Men seems to have been accomplished. If Daario was not with the Stormcrows then, he must have insured iron loyalty from his men so that no talk about his absence would transpire. When Daario reports to Dany what happened, he is rather evasive, (I should perhaps say that he is hyperbolic, which is his way of being evasive).

Note that Daario did not return at the same time than his men:

I find no common point between Jaqen, Daario and the Alchemist in their personnality, their way of speaking etc. They might be different persons entirely, i.e. "no one". The question is whether all three "no ones" are really the same "no one". :)

For those who fear for Dany's life, they might be reassured by the following dialog, after Daario reports having captured Quentyn's party among the Windblown:

Final note: If Daario is an agent put at the head of the Stormcrows, his employer is likely to be the same power that employs the Stormcrows.

Death in Harrenhal

I owe a third theory. Like Arya did with the three deaths, I am going to cheat a bit on the third one and offer only fragments of various theories. I had several ideas in mind, none of them completely satisfying. (I had a definite intention for a third theory, perhaps that will come during the thread.)

Jaqen killed two men for Arya. First Chiswyck

Little to note, besides that it recalls the first murder in Winterfell. Then Weese

It seems that Jaqen has warged the dog to kill Weese. Nowhere it is said that skinchanging is part of the repertoire of Faceless Men. Is it possible that Jaqen has sensed that Arya is herself a warg, and that is the reason why he selected her to become a faceless man?

While I am at it: is Arya supposed to be a new recruit or a replacement for Jaqen?

Here is an interesting scene in Harrenhal (ACoK, Arya):

She then whispered the name of the next victim. Jaqen declares loudly (and a serving girl is within hearing range):

"His lordship" can only refer to Tywin Lannister. Lord Tywin would not allow anybody in his service to speak of him in this way. So it means that Jaqen felt safe from Tywin. Note also that Jaqen has the privilege to have a serving girl and the bathhouse for himself. The questions arises of whether Jaqen had any contact with Tywin. I even ask the question: could Jaqen have been employed by Tywin?

Obviously, there is lot to understand about the logic of the change of faces. Here is perhaps a bit dialog useful to understand. The Kindly Man to Arya (ADwD)

It seems to me that Jaqen used the mummer trick in Harrenhal.

Jaqen recognized immediately a lord in Robett Glover, when the name is pronounced. Surprising knowledge of northern nobility.

I notice that both Qyburn and Jaqen have been to the following places: The black cells in King's Landing, Harrenhal and the Citadel. They were at Harrenhal at the same time. Did Qyburn learn something about the black cells, and did Jaqen learn something about the Citadel? Did Qyburn hire the Alchemist to retrieve the key at the Citadel? Did Qyburn insist with Cersei on having access to the black cells because Jaqen told him something?

Where did the iron coin that Jaqen gave Arya come from? I assume Jaqen was put in the black cells without anything of his own. He could have found the coin in the black cells perhaps or in Harrenhal. Was he given the coin by somebody in Harrenhal? Qyburn? Tywin?

I have more questions (I have refrained to mention the obvious questions) and ideas. But that will be enough to get the thread started.

:shocked:

[brut]

Yeah, what we know about SF is what SF tells us about himself. I don't remember Ned or anyone else confirming his merits. SF says he was the first sword of Braavos, but was he really? I don't remember the exact details of his confrontation with the guards, but somehow, my impression out of it was really far from certain of SF's death.

Also, if we assume that SF is just one of the faces that JH uses, then why, we can explain certain affiliation that JH shows towards Arya. Think some research should be done in this direction.

[Frey Pie]

Yeah, what we know about SF is what SF tells us about himself. I don't remember Ned or anyone else confirming his merits. SF says he was the first sword of Braavos, but was he really? I don't remember the exact details of his confrontation with the guards, but somehow, my impression out of it was really far from certain of SF's death.

Also, if we assume that SF is just one of the faces that JH uses, then why, we can explain certain affiliation that JH shows towards Arya. Think some research should be done in this direction.

Theres been a loada research into the Jaqen and Syrio topic. Many people dont think Syrios dead. Its quite possible though that theres evidence out there that hasnt been uncovered

[bemused]

After careful re-reads and a lot of musing , here's what I think the S=J=A theory boils down to , taking into consideration what we know ( so far ) of the FM , of the characters' capabilities , or inclinations , and how we might reasonably expect them to act.

Just to set up :

We know the FM act as spies as well as assassins , so I think we can reasonably assume they may have strictly spying missions, without being attached to an assassination contract. Despite Arya's training to kill the target, and only the target on a contract, we see from J/A 's behaviour that some FM at least ( perhaps at an elite level , or some kind of special branch ) can kill as necessary when on a mission , not just on contract ( Pate) and might kill for personal reasons ( Arya's three lives ) , if not for personal vengeance , or personal judgement as to whether the target deserves it .

It would be reasonable to assume that KL would be a prime location for an FM intelligence agent to be in place at least observing the situation ( The great debt, the sudden death of the Hand and the need for a new one , possible knowledge that some obscure connection between Varys and Illyrio exists ) So..I won't lay it out too fully since it would be so long, but ..

As I See It ( and no doubt many others )

1. An FM is in KL when he learns Ned wants a sword master he presents himself ( maybe even reccommends himself ) as Syrio , at first , in order to find out more about Ned. He knows he must be in Oldtown by some certain time, for any number of possible reasons...

2. He agrees to accompany Ned & family to WF, on a temporary basis, having some time before Oldtown , to see what Ned and the North will do next.. he's developed a liking for Arya in the meantime ( FM are still human .)

3. He doesn't die , is not arrested , but escapes, probably reverting to his original appearance ( which he may have been doing all along , between lessons ) .. During Ned's imprisonment , he can have been keeping an eye on Arya, not revealing himself as Syrio to her to help maintain her cover ) In this way, he could have seen Yoren rescue Arya., and..

4. Since Ned is dead ,and since he has time to spare ,and since he likes Arya, he decides to follow along, "accompany" her for as long as he can, just to be sure she'll be OK. He becomes one of Yoren's recruits. ( We know backgrounds of volunteers are not checked too closely)

5. He observes Arya's interaction with Jaqen, and that apart from Gendry and the boys, and Yoren, she otherwise keeps pretty much to herself.

6. Jaqen does not survive the fire. Rorge may help Biter escape but I don't think they'd bother to help Jaqen, who's not really their compadre. ( Thanks to Elaena Targaryen digging up official background on R&B , my previous suspicion in this regard is even stronger )..so Syrio takes up the Jaquen persona ,which allows him to escape the fate of the other recruits ..and who better to try to trace Arya and ascertain whether she survived, or was taken captive than one of Lorch's men... If he should find her, she might be disposed to trust Jaqen more than a random stranger.

7. R&B's fear stems from the fact that they left him for certain death, yet here he is ,unscathed without so much as singed hair ( there was perhaps less than a minute , and probably not more, between the time Arya threw the axe and the collapse of the barn. They were not just manacled , but manacled to the floor of the cart )

8. When he goes to Arya to offer the lives, the kiss on the hair seeems too tender , almost parental , maybe too much so to suggest just any old FM, but not too much for Syrio.

9. Jaqen displays some pretty formidable swordplay , in line with the skills Syrio would have needed.

10. He goes beyond just fulfilling the debt , to continue to teach her, and to offer to take her with him. ( surely not common for an FM ? ) He says "If you would find me again " as opposed to just "if you would learn " implying more than your standard recruitment.

11. He gives her the coin , which may be his only route to Braavos before Oldtown ( if, in fact, time would have allowed his return ) and if it's a fail safe , he's left himself vulnerable for Arya's sake.That he stays in Westeros is supported by the fact that he leaves Harrenhall and enters Oldtown with his "own" or fallback appearance .( We don't know his original appearance or persona in KL..)

How do other characters support this scenario

1. Would Meryn Trant ,and any other survivors of the melee with Syrio lie ? Oh, I think so.. but did he ? Very likely , since Cersei says they had Arya , but , "the wretched dancing master interfered "...Dancing master... No mention that he was actually a sword master who put up a fight, and was killed or arrested.( Not info Cersei was likely to hold back, since being thwarted by a dancing master makes her look bad too.)

2. Yoren probably collected the 3 men from the black cells before Ned's arrest , since the old gaoler tells Jaime the papers were in order. Probably nothing with Ned's signature would he honoured after his arrest. Though Yoren had them secured , they were outdoors , visible in the cage...not too easy to pick locks , dispose of J's body and lock oneself back in.

3 . Rorge's fear.

4. When the Kindly Man says "I know no one by that name " he may be being honest , not just secretive.

If Syrio is dead , some other faceless man's behaviour would not fit so naturally , reasonably, from a human standpoint . His actions would be subject to all the same limitations as to when and how and why he would become Jaqen , and would raise even more unanswered questions ( IMO) that would rely on some pretty elaborate imagining and assumptions to answer. Not impossible , just not as logical from what we know to date.

Just an interesting note, and another reason to anticipate TWoW: Both Jaqen and Pate appear to be the FM version of a glamour. We know glamours can be seen through by a trained eye, or perhaps by people with a talent for it. , who are naturally very observant. Sam alone, among people who know Real Pate much better ,feels there is just something 'off ' about him.

Perhaps I should have started a separate thread..and I can do that if anyone prefers , but it does relate to the current discussion , even if it might throw a monkey wrench into the Daario line of thinking.

[brut]

Besides, the FM impersonating SF and JH has motives to send Arya on her way to Braavos. He is hired to train her, and FM take their service policy seriously. So, knowing that he did not finish her training, he is urging her to get to the temple of red & white and continue her education.

I also like the point where FM's face-changing ability is compared to skin-changing. It seems they truly have developed warging into something entirely new - taking over the identity of dead people. So, having certain anachronistic warging skills, both JH and the Kindly Old Man may appreciate Arya for what she is. And just maybe so, a warg is all they need.

[brut]

There's one thing that has been slowly corrupting my sanity throughout the entire series: JH giving Arya the iron coin. The iron coin to me is strongly associated with the Gift. At the same time JH does not kill her. Still, according to the FM code, Arya has to die. So, drawing the parallels with her in the Temple of Red & White, is it her identity that has to die, or does Arya has to actually physically die in order to become the FM (her physically dying makes alot of sense considering that the FM cult is that of the God of Many Faces - Death)? Which brings me to the point, that if all FM are initiated that way, aren't they all - well - undead? And extrapolating further, it seems some of the FM can date back centuries... so, naturally they would know things unknown to anyone at present.

[Bran Vras]

To return to the observation at the origin of the thread, that the face of Daario Naharis, of the Alchemist and of Jaqen H'ghar are identical, here is the first dialogue between Dany and Daario at Yunkai (ASoS):

“Are you skilled in the use of those handsome blades?” Dany asked him.

“Prendahl and Sallor would tell you so, if dead men could talk. I count no day as lived unless I have loved a woman, slain a foeman, and eaten a fine meal . . . and the days that I have lived are as numberless as the stars in the sky. I make of slaughter a thing of beauty, and many a tumbler and fire dancer has wept to the gods that they might be half so quick, a quarter so graceful. I would tell you the names of all the men I have slain, but before I could finish your dragons would grow large as castles, the walls of Yunkai would crumble into yellow dust, and winter would come and go and come again.”

GRRM is fond of making his characters say that the best lies hold a grain of truth. I suspect Daario's hyperbolic pronouncements should be taken seriously.

Is it the "no one" inside Daario who is speaking, or is it the face which has been used so many times?

Other such pronouncements by Daario are of interest. I will post them if I can make sense out of them.

[bemused]

I don't think Daario is the same person.. why would he keep any semblance of his own appearance ? There would be no need . Why would he grow a beard ? Why would he need one if Daario is a manufactured character ? If there was a Real Daario ( and he was known to the other sellswords , when we meet him, 500 of them in his own company alone ).. then the similarity between his description and the Alchemist's means nothing , since any FM would have to adopt Daario's face.

Any braggart's lies can include a kernel of truth here and there ..but which ones ? We don't know enough of Daario's background to deduce what ulterior motives he may have , but he certainly could have some.( I'd be surprised if he didn't.)

No man rises to a captaincy in a company he has just parachuted into , surely... especially one in which they all have a say in at least some decisions .. The Stormcrows are a company of freedmen. Who was Real Daario freed from ? How was he freed ? How did a company of freedmen decide to work for the Yunkai , notable slavers ?

Your theory creates a lot of questions , Bran Vras, and for me, remains unconvincing .

There are many FM ( apparently)... Why would the House of Black and White send the same guy racing across a continent ( especially if Balon also comes into this ) or back and forth between continents multiple times , when they could just assign different men ? ...The point of the thread seems to be to forge a link between two men on two separate continents who share some ( to me , superficial )features. To me ,it's twisting what is there to fit a shape you want , instead of trying to shed a little light on what's there to try to discover what shape it actually is.

And you don't seem to really want discuss the pros and cons of a topic unless the discussion fits your original proposal.

ETA : The face which has been used so many times ? Once that we know of, twice at most..Once if The A has gone straight from Harrenhall to Oldtown , twice if he went to Braavos first, in which case, why wouldn't he use a different face ? If he is Daario , which I think is unlikely, that would be twice , at most three times.. not so many. I think the person speaking is the someone who is Daario , who we just don't know very well yet.

[jarl the climber]

I do not think it is possible for Daario to be Jaquen. The timeline would not work out. He would not have had the time to get to Slavers Bay, nor would he have been able to rise to the posistion of captian in so short a time. Remember the FM give the gift of their god. They are not puffed up Bravoosis strutting around like a peacock. Darioo is a killer but not a poisioner. He seems the exact opposite of a FM.

I subscribe to the Basilisk venom theory, there was a Maester at Harrenhal tending the ravens and he was killed by Bolton when he took Harrenhal for sending out ravens telling of its fall. The most likely thing is that Jaquen stole it from him.